Lenten discussion thread for Christians and Inquirers
- Thread starter Seraffa
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I don't understand what you're getting at with this comment.
Here's a shot in the dark...traditions (rich as they are) can often mask, overlay, or obscure the meanings at the very core of certain practices, at least for some people (they can seem quite foreign). Deconstructing these layers of tradition, peeling them back if you will, can reveal the more core universal dynamic or truth lingering within. At this point, some traditions often start to make more sense as they are simply an experiential encounter or connection (sometimes quite folksy) to something deeper. Lent has lots of stuff like this I think.
This outlines the point of lent pretty well I think. I also don't get why different denominations of Christianity fight so much. From an outsiders perspective, you guys are more similar than different.
I'm sure much of the perceived fighting is over old wounds, most cause by politics, power, egos, and odd quirks of history. Some of the differences are simply a matter of diversity. Some, though, stem from legitimately different perspectives that seem small, but send out potentially big ripples. Even so, I have seen first hand how unity, knowledge, and mutual respect can prosper in this very environment and challenge the often petty predispositions and assumptions we carry with us culturally. Fortunately, there is enough of this broader thinking (often from very highly regarded sources) that one can align with this if one chooses to do so. When we see angst, mistrust, and ill-intent, just trust that there was and is a definite other side to that coin. It may not get much press, though.
Perhaps you'd like to give one example of that you witnessed along the way, Randomsomeone?
I read the anathema ritual.... I found it very scary
I find it really difficult to see the joyful side of this ceremony. Is it normal for outsiders of these traditions to see it as quasi-hostile?
Perhaps you could with a Lenten "partner" of some sort, Lucidmoon, when you can plan your first attempt -- after all, it was Christ Himself who went out to fast and pray in the desert, as Son of Man! As Son of God, He didn't have to, but He did it out of obedience to the Heavenly Father, and to carry on the previous legacy of fasting and prayer found in the OT by the Prophets and Righteous forefathers and foremothers of the Faith.
I do remember growing up that Protestants did not beleive in this practise. I know that more of their pastors are advocating it NOW, but I am wondering if they are viewing it as more of a "side item" to spirituality than anything else? Someone else would have the answer for this, I'm sure. I don't want to throw in any false info that would skew the conversation we have going on right now.
I hope that all of our Traditions are taken up by Protestants, then its a simple name change and welcome home protestants.
Amen to that, Corndogman! Maybe there will be opportunities for a number of different discussions here, on some various threads.
I read the anathema ritual.... I found it very scary
Well, Organguh - I don't blame you! It's STRICT stuff! It's not what we're used to hearing in a politically correct world these days, is it? But I do assure you - this beautiful service is only done once a year, and only on Orthodoxy Sunday.( It's not the policy of Orhtodox Christians to go down the street, armed with knowledge, blasting out their neighbors over this and that different heresy and the resulting errors produced. That's not our mission. Sorry if you got the wrong impression!
A person encountering this service for the first time, in all its solemnity, is better off fore-equipped with a general knowledge of exactly what went on at the 7 Ecumenical Councils, which the Sunday of Orthodoxy points back to and elevates during worship. Most Orthodox have a good grasp of this by the time the yearly service occurs, because when we listen to the sermons our pastors deliver during the year, our theology is intertwined back to both the Life of Christ, and the Life of the Church EQUALLY. For the Orthodox, there is no "Sola Scriptura", as there is in Protestant congregations.
The 7 resulting councils were truly HIGH DRAMA.....a "hell" of a lot went on there; all the anticipated tension of debate, apologetics, refutes, PLUS group and private prayer as each recession, day or night, was held as the Church "hashed it all out"..... and determined once and for all time which dogmas truly affirmed the real life and teachings of Christ (as well as His Apostles' teachings).... and which fell short or massively "skewed" the whole view of things. Little wonder that invitations were sent out through the entire known world for these grand convocations of pious and holy men known in their day as steadfast, believable leaders and witnesses in Church so as to challenge the "rantings" of critics of Christianity....(who had formed "churches" and congregations of their own well that were publicly known, and prone to proselytise others.)
A brief rundown of the "why's", and what was determined after each Council, is listed on this page:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Ecumenical_Councils
We also remember those who gave their lives or were subject to torture or exile
- even under an unbelieving Emperor's rule - on this day, and remind ourselves of the price and the effort we too, are called to reflect as truly believing Christians defending the teachings of our dear Jesus, His life and gift to us.Like 9/11, we "Never Forget."
Here is a full account of the service, done among our California parishes in Los Angeles, only last year!
This shows the progression of each part, and what the congregation looks like.
YouTube - Sunday of Orthodoxy
...and I apologise because this particular post only showed the LITURGY followed by Holy Communion on that particular day, while the separate service you read, Oranguh, contains the material we were talking about. "My bad."
2 versions of the service: indoor and outdoor, bad weather and good >>>>>>
Perhaps some of us felt that, similar to what you said, the clip of the Anathemas were a bit too strong to be presented "by themselves" in a separate video - and too easily taken out of context by critics of Christianity..... But I did find one that is Anathema-based, intertwined with a sermon. I'll list this one first.
The clip opens with the deacon finishing a reading, ..then a visiting Bishop delivers a sermon. He is speaking in an authoriative way about the difficulties of error in the world.....notice how the faithful are quietly attending and listening....(wish it could have been in English for you...) Of course, if anyone did not want to listen to what was being said, they would have the right to leave the service on their own, with no one "following them" hurling accusations at them.....the faithful would still be praying for them.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udQFuPewk3M&feature=related"]YouTube - Anatema pravoslavlja[/ame]
And here after a procession (after the sermon, in another parish) the joyous continuation of the service with the affirmation "This is the Faith of our fathers...this is the Faith of the Church...of Christ and the Apostles...this is the Faith of the Martyrs....." "Who is so great a God as our God? You are the God who does wonders!...." (notice how the lighting is still kept low for the evening service, as if we are in the Catacombs, where early Christians held their services when under persecution....)
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUOoIWPkQG0&NR=1"]YouTube - Sunday Of Orthodoxy Part Five[/ame]
Whereas THIS procession was held outside at another Church in good weather during DAYLIGHT....where you see the Faithful present in a quiet gathering, facing the door, where they re-enter as they themselves and the Church is blessed with incense as an offering to God
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzTEm1cy-iE&feature=related"]YouTube - Sunday of Orthodoxy: Reading of the Synodikon[/ame]
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I love the way that often simple liturgical movement and symbolism is used to connect our minds, our imaginations, and our hearts to great realities and awarenesses, to people and times still relevant within the heart of the community, and to an inner disposition (both communal and individual) towards great mystery.
A Lutheran church down the street has special Lenten services each Wednesday...I confess I am curious how they embrace Lenten themes from within their own tradition. Each refraction seems to contain it's own rich interplay of concepts, all embracing the essential change of heart, the new vision, that moves us closer to God's Kingdom.
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Wow, that was some heavy stuff to post today! You took me by surprise, Oranguh.
Yea
thank you! Most of the time people get these "weird ideas" from churches that has an adverse effect on the general "image", if you get what I mean. Anyways, I find this really quite pitiful when that happens because I am confronted with lots of good intentions but they often seem to "miss the mark" and create misconceptions for the vast majority. For example. In Tokyo there is usually (almost always) these vans with loudspeakers in the middle of the city centre advocating some form of Christianity by stating generic lines like "be saved from hell" "Jesus will cleanse your soul" or sometimes even "The end is neaaar". But in my opinion such methods of spreading "good news" in many societies only has a detrimental effect on the image of the religion.
People then tend to stay clear of religion rather than come closer. Which is really sad because the intentions are the exact opposite!
(I think... I'm not 100% sure... Sometimes I'm confused if people are "aware" of how they come across. [I mean, sometimes religious advocates really just cross the line and I want to believe they aren't aware that they come across like that.... But most people won't even think about that and immediately judge!])
But anyways, I just can't stand when that happens because yea... It's kind of an understatement to shrug it off and say "too bad".
Yea
For example. In Tokyo there is usually (almost always) these vans with loudspeakers in the middle of the city centre advocating some form of Christianity by stating generic lines like "be saved from hell" "Jesus will cleanse your soul" or sometimes even "The end is neaaar". But in my opinion such methods of spreading "good news" in many societies only has a detrimental effect on the image of the religion.
People then tend to stay clear of religion rather than come closer. Which is really sad because the intentions are the exact opposite!
(I think... I'm not 100% sure... Sometimes I'm confused if people are "aware" of how they come across. [I mean, sometimes religious advocates really just cross the line and I want to believe they aren't aware that they come across like that.... But most people won't even think about that and immediately judge!])
But anyways, I just can't stand when that happens because yea... It's kind of an understatement to shrug it off and say "too bad".
Do most people practise Shinto, Oranguh?
I think so, not sure~
yea, I know, I'm such a bad person for not knowing these things.
Along with the rest of the Japan which has a negative birth rate.
Also, reminds me of this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12811197
So I don't think Shinto is the only one in on that list.
:0! People, we are like the masters of derailing. Sorrrrryyy