Is manipulation is a form of force?

[Stu]

Using the term "force" in a non physical sense itself is deceptive because it is an analogy of physical force. If in a discussion I use the reasoning's of another to show them that by their own assertions their premises are false, then I have only "forced" them into a quandary metaphorically. Their emotional response may resemble the emotions they would have if they were physically threatened.

Looking at it like that then yes, manipulation is force because it is using the force of reason.

 

[arbygil]

Short answer, yes - especially if you look up the definitions of force. Physical, perhaps not. But

*Effectiveness: the condition of being effective, valid, or applicable
"The new regulations come into force next week."

*Nonphysical power: power or strength that is intellectual or moral rather than physical
"swayed by the force of your argument"

*Somebody or something with great influence: somebody or something that has great power or influence, especially in a particular field

(And transitive verb):
*Compel somebody: to use superior physical or mental power to make somebody or yourself do something that is not agreeable

Link: http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+force&qpvt=definition+of+force&FORM=DTPDIA

This last definition is of particular interest, because it seems the very nature of manipulation.

To be honest, Satya, no one likes having their morals or beliefs tampered with unless (as you say) they want to change. In the same way that no one can force you to become an atheist or a Christian, or the same way someone can't force you to become a racist or a homophobe, you have to have the tendencies already to be swayed. And if you don't, then you will feel forced to make a decision. Or worse, you could feel forced if you're on the edge but you don't like the conclusions you hear (or how those conclusions make you feel). People have become violent over such things, because they aren't ready to face different truths and/or theories.

If you decide to force someone to discover the truth, you're also going to receive an equally forceful reaction. Depending on how deep-seated the belief is, the reaction could be mild or vitriolic.

So I ask you this: Is it well within your right to bring up the emotional states of unstable people (or even stable people who haven't defined what the truth is for them) to force a reaction from them? And if you force this reaction, are you prepared for accepting the consequences of what they may do to you and/or others? Are you their "avenging angel" so to speak?

 

[InvisibleJim]

If I manipulate you into learning something, would that be an act of force? Did I force you to learn it?

Yes. There is a time or place for everything; however, attempting to make someone see a different outcome just because you feel/think they should is forcing them to undertake the activity. The level of negative reaction will be based upon how inappropriate your attempt is.

I certainly know lots of wonderful people on INFJs who manipulate and declare you the unreasonable/intolerant individual when you point at their behaviour.

Note, there are many different types of manipulation.

1) Ignoring the other persons expressed wishes and then inviting them under false pretences into a situation you know they do not wish. - You manipulate them into a situation they have not chosen and therefore exercise force in ignoring what you are aware of.
2) Falsifying information fed to them to 'manipulate' the outcome of their analysis. - You manipulate the information provided to someone because you know it will come out with an answer you disapprove of and wish to avoid by forcing them not to have the facts.
3) Placing them in a situation where you demand they do X or else you will do Y. Carrots and sticks. - You actively threaten force if they do what they naturally wish to do.

 

[barbad0s]

I don't think asking open questions counts as manipulation. Manipulation involves "tricking" or cornering someone in a way they didn't expect and taking advantage of them using some sort of blindside. Manipulation also generally involves the manipulator directly and selfishly benefiting from the actions that they tricked the manipulatee into performing. Encouraging someone to look at all sides of a situation and to use their own discretion, suggesting no negative circumstances for whatever decision they make, is not manipulation. Manipulation is not force either because a victim of manipulation could have seen through the manipulating words or actions. They are victims of manipulation beacause they failed to do so. They weren't forced, just outwitted. This is why it's seen as worse to manipulate a child as an adult, than adults manipulating other adults, because children's level of experience and mental development are usually no match for an adult's. Manipulation and force are two different things.

 

[Sensiko]

I see it as a form of head fake where I teach someone that they have the choice to question their beliefs without them realizing that I am doing so.

Effective teachers don't use this technique using negative reinforcement.

Apparently, in addition to "teaching" others, according to yourself, you also do this to understand intuition in others and end up "teaching" yourself. So which story is it? :spy:

The entire time I was responding to your post that you reference as the inspiration to this thread, I kept thinking and almost posting something to the effect, "I can't believe I need to spell this out for this guy. He can't possibly be this daft. Maybe he just has really bad comprehension skills." You have no idea how you affect people. It's all a bit megalomaniacal to try.

Hey, you know who was an excellent manipulator/megalomaniac? Hitler!

head fake: when a person begins to make there way down a mans body -towards the penis- as if to give oral sex and does nothing more than look around.

 

[barbad0s]

Damn it's posts like that of mine that when I reread them make me go, "fuck yeah i'm smart!"

 

[Lerxst]

I'd say manipulation is only force if you're the person being manipulated and are aware of the manipulation. I can think of a real-life situation where myself and others I worked with were being manipulated by a person and then I snapped out of it and saw the manipulation taking place. It created a lot of tension between myself and that person while my co-workers were sitting there wondering what my problem was.

It's only manipulation if you allow it to happen. Once you're aware of the manipulation, you have several ways to avoid it and can simply choose not to be manipulated any longer. Therefor, I'd have a difficult time saying manipulation is a form of force; usually it can only happen when there is no force involved.

 

[Kgal]

If I manipulate you into learning something, would that be an act of force? Did I force you to learn it?

You sure have a way of stirring things up....lol

We find ourselves in a position to be able to do this - don't we - probably more often than most people - because of our professions.
I too used to question people or figure out ways to get them to question. I founnd myself saying things like "I'm trying to get people to think". Once in a while I still do.

What most here do not understand about our profession is we follow a code of ethics. This code essentially equates to "Do No Harm" - or in reality "Do Least Harm".

In my view - Manipulation is like laying out the bread crumbs for a path to be followed. If the person takes the path - then they may find some of the bread crumbs I left for them. Sometimes people walk the path and they never see them. Sometimes they find every one. I have learned to not worry whether they find any or not. It is their path - not mine.

Ultimately, if I am considering a manipulative act - I try very hard to see what potential harm could result from my action. If a person's beliefs are keeping them stuck or in a continuous trauma loop in their minds or any of a myriad scenarios where the thinking is flawed - then I would think about how to help them. If manipulation is the only way - and they ask for help from me - then it will be considered.

No. It is not force.

 

[Satya]

Effective teachers don't use this technique using negative reinforcement.

Apparently, in addition to "teaching" others, according to yourself, you also do this to understand intuition in others and end up "teaching" yourself. So which story is it? :spy:

Both.

The entire time I was responding to your post that you reference as the inspiration to this thread, I kept thinking and almost posting something to the effect, "I can't believe I need to spell this out for this guy. He can't possibly be this daft. Maybe he just has really bad comprehension skills." You have no idea how you affect people. It's all a bit megalomaniacal to try.

Hey, you know who was an excellent manipulator/megalomaniac? Hitler!

Oh come now, I'm not that great of a manipulator. Hell, my boyfriend emotionally manipulates me 90% of the time. This whole line of reasoning began from me trying to get another member's goat by calling myself the "Deciever" because I try to find different ways of planting seeds of doubt in people's minds when it comes to their personal beliefs. It just sort of evolved from there. Instilling doubt is not a crime, and I'm not even sure it constitutes as manipulation or deception.

 

[Satya]

You sure have a way of stirring things up....lol

We find ourselves in a position to be able to do this - don't we - probably more often than most people - because of our professions.
I too used to question people or figure out ways to get them to question. I founnd myself saying things like "I'm trying to get people to think". Once in a while I still do.

What most here do not understand about our profession is we follow a code of ethics. This code essentially equates to "Do No Harm" - or in reality "Do Least Harm".

In my view - Manipulation is like laying out the bread crumbs for a path to be followed. If the person takes the path - then they may find some of the bread crumbs I left for them. Sometimes people walk the path and they never see them. Sometimes they find every one. I have learned to not worry whether they find any or not. It is their path - not mine.

Ultimately, if I am considering a manipulative act - I try very hard to see what potential harm could result from my action. If a person's beliefs are keeping them stuck or in a continuous trauma loop in their minds or any of a myriad scenarios where the thinking is flawed - then I would think about how to help them. If manipulation is the only way - and they ask for help from me - then it will be considered.

No. It is not force.

Thank you!

 

[Satya]

I don't think asking open questions counts as manipulation. Manipulation involves "tricking" or cornering someone in a way they didn't expect and taking advantage of them using some sort of blindside. Manipulation also generally involves the manipulator directly and selfishly benefiting from the actions that they tricked the manipulatee into performing. Encouraging someone to look at all sides of a situation and to use their own discretion, suggesting no negative circumstances for whatever decision they make, is not manipulation. Manipulation is not force either because a victim of manipulation could have seen through the manipulating words or actions. They are victims of manipulation beacause they failed to do so. They weren't forced, just outwitted. This is why it's seen as worse to manipulate a child as an adult, than adults manipulating other adults, because children's level of experience and mental development are usually no match for an adult's. Manipulation and force are two different things.

Yes, I agree, although we seem to have several different definitions of manipulation popping up in this thread.

 

[randomsomeone]

There are lots of ways to engage with people. I do not consider manipulation a beneficial one, regardless of the outcome. Teaching, leading, guiding is one thing...but if actual manipulation of another is involved it assumes a tack that is not proper for us to take.

 

[Sensiko]

Both.



Oh come now, I'm not that great of a manipulator. Hell, my boyfriend emotionally manipulates me 90% of the time. This whole line of reasoning began from me trying to get another member's goat by calling myself the "Deciever" because I try to find different ways of planting seeds of doubt in people's minds when it comes to their personal beliefs. It just sort of evolved from there. Instilling doubt is not a crime, and I'm not even sure it constitutes as manipulation or deception.

Fair enough, but when you mess with people for whatever reason it ruins your credibility. That's why an effective teacher wouldn't use negative "manipulation" --they would spend all year trying to earn the trust of their class back. I'm definitely thinking twice before posting to you again, it could just be another waste of time just so you can get your rocks off.

 

[the]

If you are pushing someone in a direction (knowledge-wise) and they dont realize it, then yes that is force - up until the point they realize what is happening and go along with you of their own volition.

Forcing someone to learn is kind of different from what you are doing which is: actively engaging a person so that they experience doubt about their religion (which could be a big part of their cultural identity) so that you can get your rocks off that you are "saving the world". Not only this but you prey on the weak who are coming to your place of employment for help about something other than their religion. Problem is that you are against any of the core beliefs of this facility and it is those core beliefs that draws people to that place. So you are essentially deceiving your employer, deceiving your client, and deceiving yourself by calling manipulation a "head fake" (which Im not sure that is even a legit thing. I think you just made it up)... calling manipulation a head fake so that you can ease your own conscious.

 

[Zukkor]

Well, if you leave the questions open and to be determined by the ones learning, then that is not manipulation. But, if you try and imprint upon them your own opinions on the matter, then you are not giving them a chance to see otherwise.