[PUG] - Is indoctrination of children abusive? | INFJ Forum

[PUG] Is indoctrination of children abusive?

Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by TheLastMohican, Jan 26, 2010.

Share This Page

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 3 users.
More threads by TheLastMohican
  1. TheLastMohican

    TheLastMohican Captain Obvious
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Threads:
    206
    Messages:
    6,233
    Likes Received:
    480
    Trophy Points:
    676
    MBTI:
    ENTJ
    Enneagram:
    Type me.
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  2. randomsomeone

    randomsomeone Well-known member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2009
    Threads:
    8
    Messages:
    2,145
    Likes Received:
    308
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Regardless of where the bar is set, there would no doubt be a lot of legal grey area on this one. It seems formation is a normal thing to see taking place in a family....perhaps the level of enforcement or extremity of measures used to form might be the question.
     
    #2 randomsomeone, Jan 26, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2010
  3. DevilDoll

    DevilDoll Beware! I Bite...

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Threads:
    35
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    412
    Trophy Points:
    627
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    5w6
    While I don't agree with it, it is the right of every parent to decide how to raise their children. I see very little benefit in raising a child in a religious atmosphere where it is not encouraged for them to ask questions and form their own opinions. I would not raise my children this way, but I have no right to tell someone else they can't.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    I would like to say yes, because I know of no religion other than LaVeyan Satanism or The Order of Shai Gar which is actually beneficial for children and the formation of minds.
     
  5. INFJesus

    Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    Threads:
    4
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    33
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    ISFP
    It's similar to parents deciding what their children are going to be when they grow up career wise.
    It limits potential and critical thinking.

    However it is not up to any government to regulate it in my opinion.
    And I have no business telling anyone how to raise their children either.

    So many conflicting values..I am all over the place with one:m097:
     
    #5 INFJesus, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
    acd likes this.
  6. DevilDoll

    DevilDoll Beware! I Bite...

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Threads:
    35
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    412
    Trophy Points:
    627
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    5w6
    I understand being all over the place. While I don't agree with it I can't condone the government having any say in it. I suppose the only way I will be able to change it even slightly is to raise my children (if I ever have any) to think for themselves, to ask questions, to form their own opinion and to be their own person, whether that person believes in God or subscribes to a specific religion is not up to me.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. acd

    acd Well-known member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2009
    Threads:
    143
    Messages:
    15,136
    Featured Threads:
    11
    Likes Received:
    33,460
    Trophy Points:
    1,377
    MBTI:
    infp
    Enneagram:
    9w8 sp/sx
    We don't need any more laws. First, these parents believe in what they are saying to their children. They aren't intentionally inflicting harm. Once they begin flogging the children in the name of God, then the law can butt in. That's child abuse.

    I'm sure tons of us here have had religious upbringings, and were still able to come to our own conclusions. Education is the way to go. If it is made illegal to teach one's children a path, what next? It'd just lead to a sort of tyranny. Soon after, we might be harvesting our baby citizens from the walls of a giant synthetic womb and letting the state raise them!! Eeek![/crackpot]
     
    INFJesus likes this.
  8. testing

    On Holiday

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2009
    Threads:
    37
    Messages:
    902
    Likes Received:
    90
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    qwer
    You do seem to be lacking a good preschool program, but that is one heck of a scary thought. A good preschool program and Wednesday night suppers are the hallmark of any good religion, you know.

    My opinion on making indoctrination illegal is that it usually doesn't work anyway, so what's the point of wasting a bunch of legislators' breath trying to prevent it? Kids manage to resist it pretty well themselves, usually. Everyone knows (especially here in the Bible Belt) that it's the preachers' kids - presumably the most indoctrinated ones - who are always the wildest. Total waste of time and money, at least if you are talking about the kind of indoctrination I am familiar with. I suppose there are extreme cases of indoctrination-as-child-abuse, though, but typically kids un-indoctrinate themselves at some point anyway.
     
  9. Barnabas

    Barnabas Time Lord

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2009
    Threads:
    263
    Messages:
    5,241
    Likes Received:
    669
    Trophy Points:
    667
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Florida man
    MBTI:
    wiblywobly
    Enneagram:
    timeywimey
    I apologise as I got only two-thirds of the way through the first article and stoped reading.

    I fear if I say anything other then it is complety and utterly absurd to think that religous upbringings are indoctrination and that religous upbringings are abusive. I fear if I say anything else my knowledge of profuse words will be incited.

    However, before my top blows I need to put out that this man mind is so backwards in his thinking and knowledge of religion that he should not even be valued as an author.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    I've now read Dawkins "theory" and calmed down a bit, I must ask why does booth authors use such abusive language?

    This might be added to the "False doctrine of Hell" catagory, however I think this is also a misnomer as Hell isn't even normaly taught to young children. Fear is a terrible way to start childrens view of God. In my experince on both the learning and the teaching side of childrens ministry, the afterlife is far to complex to understand at the age of 5, shoot I would say that it shouldn't be thourughly taught until 10 or 12.

    Most sunday schools often teach straight bible and memorization. "mini-church"(for kids below middle school age) often focuses on morals, values, how to live a good life, and how to treat others.

    And people of their right minds do become Christians in their teens and as adults, I was the one who brought my parents to church not the other way around.

    I'm astounded how ignorant "intelligent" men can be. But how else do you act when your life goal is to destory religion.

    they in every sense of the word are fools and should be regarded as nothing less.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #9 Barnabas, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  10. DevilDoll

    DevilDoll Beware! I Bite...

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2009
    Threads:
    35
    Messages:
    2,096
    Likes Received:
    412
    Trophy Points:
    627
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    5w6
    You may have found your religion on your own, and I applaud you for that. I believe people should find something to believe in on their own. However, you will find that while you may not have been forced into religion at a young age quite a few people were. I am not arguing that the government should have any say in what parents decide to teach their children, or how they raise them. I just wish people would see that planning a child's religion falls along the same lines as planning their career. I was raised in a very devout family and I was forced the memorize bible verses and hymns until eventually I could spit back any information you wanted. I was a good christian child, until I began to ask questions. No that was not allowed. You believed what you were told and that was that. Blind faith was what the expected from me and for years I gave it to them and now that I don't I am a disappointment because I didn't follow the path they set for me. It reminds me of when a child tells her overbearing mother that she's not applying to the college "they" decided on. The mother freaks out because the child is straying from the plan they had set and the child feels like she has let her mother down. She becomes the black sheep because she formed her own opinions and grew into her own person. I view it as living vicariously through your child.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  11. Peguy

    Peguy Regular Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Seems people are confusing religious education with indoctrination. Figures!


    Really? I would sincerely like to know how they're more more beneficial for the formation of minds than say the writings of profound religious thinkers like St. Augustine of Hippo, St. Thomas Aquinas, Maimonedes, Averroes, Avicenna just to name a few?
     
    #11 Peguy, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  12. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Thomas Aquinas who said that jews were fit only for slavery?
     
  13. Peguy

    Peguy Regular Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    The same Thomas Aquinas Martin Luther King Jr. cited when outlining the basic tenents of Civil Rights. Of course why take my word for it:
    http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html


    Ehh...what the heck, he also threw a little St. Augustine in there as well.
     
  14. OP
    TheLastMohican

    TheLastMohican Captain Obvious
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Threads:
    206
    Messages:
    6,233
    Likes Received:
    480
    Trophy Points:
    676
    MBTI:
    ENTJ
    Enneagram:
    Type me.
    Usually a public intellectual only has to say one or two preposterous or vile things to find himself largely discredited. Are your pet theologians exceptions? Why should cherry picking the good stuff make up for the bad stuff, such that the author's writings may be considered good for children?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Yeah, thought we were talking about the same fellow.
     
  16. Peguy

    Peguy Regular Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Actually it's Shai Gar who's cherry-picking here. Whatever he said about Jews, St. Thomas Aquinas was a profound thinker with deep influences on Western thinking. Does that mean we should ignore some of the unpleasant things he may of said? No, but neither should he neglect him just because of that. Just like one cannot ignore the greatness and influence of Wagner on classical music even when taking into account his anti-Semitic views.

    What ultimately matters is whether the overal perspective presented by a thinker is viable and leads to the truth, not particular statements they said on this or that issue.

    In other words, Shai Gar is going to have to try harder.
     
    #16 Peguy, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  17. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    If you want to use the existence of your imaginary sponsor of your historically violent, abusive, ultra-capitalistic, imperialistic, bigoted, sexist and ignorance sponsoring organisation, as the reason for forcing others who aren't gulled into your belief system, to obey the same religious laws, then the onus is on you to PROVE the existence of said entity.

    Satanism is better for children because it doesn't demand that its adherents deny their own animal nature, their own sexual nature, or to repress their natural scientific curiosity.

    The Order of Shai Gar is better for children because it demands that adherents explore their own selves, study the world we live in, and maintain their bodies in as best a possible shell for their minds as they can, while accepting and adhering their own natural urges.

    The sexual ablution required and demanded of Christians is especially damaging for developing adolescent minds. That's just ONE of the many problems with Christian indoctrination for children.
     
  18. Peguy

    Peguy Regular Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2010
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    79
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    I can obviously tell you don't know one damn thing about Catholicism. For one thing, St. Thomas Aquinas had much to say about the existence of God, not least of which his famous Five proofs. This should help you:
    http://www.aquinasonline.com/Topics/existgod.html

    As for all that "violent, abusive, ultra-capitalistic, imperialistic, bigoted, sexist and ignorance sponsoring organisation" fuh fuh fuh. Well it's not even worth bothering with.

    So it's better for children to ask them to act like animals, rather than uplift themselves to act like actual human persons?

    Sounds rather narcisstic if you ask me.
     
    #18 Peguy, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2010
  19. OP
    TheLastMohican

    TheLastMohican Captain Obvious
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    May 8, 2008
    Threads:
    206
    Messages:
    6,233
    Likes Received:
    480
    Trophy Points:
    676
    MBTI:
    ENTJ
    Enneagram:
    Type me.
    He did it too, but that doesn't matter, because you were the one saying that Aquinas's writings are beneficial to children in their formative years. All Shai Gar has to do is come up with a few particularly unsavory statements in those writings to show that they are not good for children to take as truth.

    If you want to sort out the good stuff and say that that is good for children, then that's fine; but you weren't that careful.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  20. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Because TLM said that certain members who are more prominent should argue with more rigour, in order to be better understood, or perhaps ... I can't remember, sorry TLM, I should be asleep right now my mind is slowly forgetting things.

    He certainly was a profound thinker with deep influences on Western Thinking. That doesn't mean we should appreciate his views.
    Karl Marx and Mao Tse Tung were also profound thinkers (in different areas), but that doesn't mean we apply their thoughts to modern society.

    Rasputin and Anton LaVey were also profound thinkers who have shaped a lot of society for their time elapsed since death. I'd like to apply their thoughts, but you don't want to...

    He was a Christian Theologian, his writings only apply to christianity, otherwise we have to start objectively questioning the origins and lines of thought of his work. He references a character in a widely read work of fiction a lot. I'd discount him on that alone unless he, or you, has/have the math or objective observations with rational arguments to back up the existence of YHWH.

    Good point, valid and I agree with it. Now prove God is real.

    Don't use the bible, or I'll use Lord of The Rings to prove the existence of Uruk-Hai.

    I can. I dislike Wagners music. His antisemitic views make sense given that before the 1960s when the jews started putting a lot of money into PR campaigns, most people were anti-semitic based on religious teachings in Christianity.
     
    #20 Shai Gar, Jan 27, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2010
Loading...

Share This Page