Is Feminism Outdated?

[Lark]

There is no double standard in being a champion for human rights and a feminist (the proper definition of one as in someone who supports equal rights for women). Can I not believe in animal rights and also belong to an organization that takes care of abused dogs? Can I not believe in the rights of all handicapped people to be treated fairly but also work in a charity that supports blind people in particular? Can I not support mental health services for all but have a special interest in care for schizophrenics because I have a family member who is schizophrenic?

I think there's nothing wrong with feminism which campaigns exclusively for womans rights or womans liberation, given that there's at least some grounds for suggesting that, at least, historically (but also contemporaneously in some contexts) it is woman who require the liberation as opposed to a vagary about human rights.

Its a strange vulgar and homogenising egalitarianism which seeks to avoid that kind of thing but I'm familiar with it, its the same sort of "egalitarianism" which wants to revise the meaning of marriage so it is inclusive of a minority fo the population who in all other respects do not wish their relationship to resemble that of what the historic meaning of marriage has been, ie members of the opposite sex in a monogamous pairing for life.

 

[muir]

I think there's nothing wrong with feminism which campaigns exclusively for womans rights or womans liberation, given that there's at least some grounds for suggesting that, at least, historically (but also contemporaneously in some contexts) it is woman who require the liberation as opposed to a vagary about human rights.

Its a strange vulgar and homogenising egalitarianism which seeks to avoid that kind of thing but I'm familiar with it, its the same sort of "egalitarianism" which wants to revise the meaning of marriage so it is inclusive of a minority fo the population who in all other respects do not wish their relationship to resemble that of what the historic meaning of marriage has been, ie members of the opposite sex in a monogamous pairing for life.

Both women and men are in need of emancipation

Men aren't free...they never have been

And the harsh reality that some people seem unwilling to face is that for most of human history it is a fact that most human work was brutally physical

Men being physically stronger would do certain jobs requiring more muscle whislt women did work that was still very physical but did not require as much heavy lifting (or perhaps smaller loads)

But men were required throughout history to do the most risky and brutal jobs

Instead of a recognition of the labours of man they are being demonised...that's bullshit

 

[Lark]

I'm actually pretty interested in what a matriarchal society and matrilineal society could be like, has anyone read Bachofen's suggestion that there was a matrilineal society preceeding our patriarchal society?

That is that the stability and continuity of society was secured through the mother's lineage rather than the father's so family names, rights to ownership or proprietorship would be the mothers who would be expected to survive and possibly have more than one husband as the elements, hunting, warfare could lead to the husbands perishing before they did.

Its different again from a matriarchal society, which hasnt ever existed, apart from in fiction like Herland or The Gate To Womans Country, which is a social system reflecting exclusively the perogatives of motherhood or women as opposed to fatherhood or men.

I've heard vulgar egalitarians suggest that a sex blind society is preferable and that the dominance of feminity is no different to the dominance of masculinity but there's a category error taking place there, since dominance, in this conceptualisation I'll accept as its important to define terms and recognise there may not be agreement about it, is identified with the masculine and consensus or care with the feminine, its not a straight substitution of one for the other but a difference of character and composition.

 

[muir]

I'm actually pretty interested in what a matriarchal society and matrilineal society could be like, has anyone read Bachofen's suggestion that there was a matrilineal society preceeding our patriarchal society?

That is that the stability and continuity of society was secured through the mother's lineage rather than the father's so family names, rights to ownership or proprietorship would be the mothers who would be expected to survive and possibly have more than one husband as the elements, hunting, warfare could lead to the husbands perishing before they did.

Its different again from a matriarchal society, which hasnt ever existed, apart from in fiction like Herland or The Gate To Womans Country, which is a social system reflecting exclusively the perogatives of motherhood or women as opposed to fatherhood or men.

I've heard vulgar egalitarians suggest that a sex blind society is preferable and that the dominance of feminity is no different to the dominance of masculinity but there's a category error taking place there, since dominance, in this conceptualisation I'll accept as its important to define terms and recognise there may not be agreement about it, is identified with the masculine and consensus or care with the feminine, its not a straight substitution of one for the other but a difference of character and composition.

Warren farrel covers this in that talk i posted...the idea of men being more expendable

He cites studies where both men and women are asked what is worse: a woman dying or a man dying

BOTH men AND women BOTH say that it is worse for a woman to die

This is because we are programmed to see men as expendable

farrell speaks about the game of american football as being a subtle way of conditioning this into our boys where they are cheered on by female cheer leaders to take risks on the pitch

If they put their lives on the line they are cheered

And what happens if they lose form or are injured? They can't play and someone else fill's their jersey and is then cheered...why? because men are expendable

And people wonder why young men these days have low self esteem

 

[Matt3737]

Warren farrel covers this in that talk i posted...the idea of men being more expendable

He cites studies where both men and women are asked what is worse: a woman dying or a man dying

BOTH men AND women BOTH say that it is worse for a woman to die

This is because we are programmed to see men as expendable

There is a simple biological fact to account for this, which is, a single man can outreproduce a female by many orders of magnitude under hypothetical conditions where all other needs and resources are met (unlimited female partners) in which he would only limited by time constraints.

This takes 'life' and 'value' to be tangible, whereas if taken figuratively one might state, "Life is priceless." which is fine, but too irrelevant to the actual question being posed.

 

[muir]

There is a simple biological fact to account for this, which is, a single man can outreproduce a female by many orders of magnitude under hypothetical conditions where all other needs and resources are met (unlimited female partners) in which he would only limited by time constraints.

This takes 'life' and 'value' to be tangible, whereas if taken figuratively one might state, "Life is priceless." which is fine, but too irrelevant to the actual question being posed.

No its not a biology issue

It is to do with society benefitting from men taking risks whether it was going out to fight bears or sabre tooth tigers, hunt large game, defend the village from attack, fight wars, be a firefighter, a cop or even just do stressful or physically exhausting work

So society could benefit it has cheapened men

But if today we are now in our 'modern' society in a position where things are different and we don't now have to take all these risks and also women can now take some of the risks and where we are now talking about 'equality' of for example opportunities then isn;t it time we stopped the cultural devaluing of men?

if we do not do this then we are not living in an equal society and should not lie to ourselves

 

[Matt3737]

So society could benefit it has cheapened men

In your worldview, there is a very serious lack of 'unintended,' 'accidental' or 'coincidental' consequences. You portray things in a way that is always intentional. To you, a drunk driver intended to kill someone in a car crash as part of a large scale conspiratorial scheme.

I'm not interested in pandering to your schizophrenic worldview. I do not say that pejoratively, as I sincerely wish you well. I just cannot entertain your request to partake in your fantasy.

 

[muir]

In your worldview, there is a very serious lack of 'unintended,' 'accidental' or 'coincidental' consequences. You portray things in a way that is always intentional. To you, a drunk driver intended to kill someone in a car crash as part of a large scale conspiratorial scheme.

I'm not interested in pandering to your schizophrenic worldview. I do not say that pejoratively, as I sincerely wish you well. I just cannot entertain your request to partake in your fantasy.

Er no its taken from the warren farrel talk

lol

I suppose he's schizophrenic too? Anyone who disagrees with you is clearly schizophrenic

 

[Deleted member 12009]

there is a movement of mens rights activists. they have started that movement.

feminism is not just one thing. it is a variety of schools of thought, many of them conflicting.

They're actively made fun of, by women and men alike. Masculinism can never be a real thing...

Anyway [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] has said everything that needs to be said. 10/10

 

[La Sagna]

They're actively made fun of, by women and men alike. Masculinism can never be a real thing...

Anyway [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] has said everything that needs to be said. 10/10

If you mean that feminists are made fun of by women and men then you must be speaking of uninformed and immature individuals who actually don't realize what it is all about. Everything is made fun of on Social Media and those who want to mock the people who believe that the millions of women in the world who are still living in a patriarchal society today don't deserve our help or somehow don't exist then they can crawl back under their rock of ignorance feeling secure that in their little world they can afford to mock it. I am glad that so many of them lead such comfortable lives that they can afford to do that but even in Canada you have to be wilfully blind and shroud yourself in ignorance to not face the problems and violence faced by aboriginal women.

Here are facts about the problems women face in certain countries, and even though many men also suffer in these countries women are the ones who are more vulnerable and face a disproportionate amount of the violence and the great majority of the perpetrators who cause the harm are men:

• Afghanistan: The average Afghan girl will live to only 45 – one year less than an Afghan male. After three decades of war and religion-based repression, an overwhelming number of women are illiterate. More than half of all brides are under 16, and one woman dies in childbirth every half hour. Domestic violence is so common that 87 per cent of women admit to experiencing it. But more than one million widows are on the streets, often forced into prostitution. Afghanistan is the only country in which the female suicide rate is higher than that of males.
• Democratic Republic of Congo: In the eastern DRC, a war that claimed more than 3 million lives has ignited again, with women on the front line. Rapes are so brutal and systematic that UN investigators have called them unprecedented. Many victims die; others are infected with HIV and left to look after children alone. Foraging for food and water exposes women to yet more violence. Without money, transport or connections, they have no way of escape.
• Iraq: The U.S.-led invasion to "liberate" Iraq from Saddam Hussein has imprisoned women in an inferno of sectarian violence that targets women and girls. The literacy rate, once the highest in the Arab world, is now among the lowest as families fear risking kidnapping and rape by sending girls to school. Women who once went out to work stay home. Meanwhile, more than 1 million women have been displaced from their homes, and millions more are unable to earn enough to eat.
• Nepal: Early marriage and childbirth exhaust the country's malnourished women, and one in 24 will die in pregnancy or childbirth. Daughters who aren't married off may be sold to traffickers before they reach their teens. Widows face extreme abuse and discrimination if they're labelled bokshi, meaning witches. A low-level civil war between government and Maoist rebels has forced rural women into guerrilla groups.
• Sudan: While Sudanese women have made strides under reformed laws, the plight of those in Darfur, in western Sudan, has worsened. Abduction, rape or forced displacement have destroyed more than 1 million women's lives since 2003. The janjaweed militias have used systematic rape as a demographic weapon, but access to justice is almost impossible for the female victims of violence.
• Other countries in which women's lives are significantly worse than men's include Guatemala, where an impoverished female underclass faces domestic violence, rape and the second-highest rate of HIV/AIDS after sub-Saharan Africa. An epidemic of gruesome unsolved murders has left hundreds of women dead, some of their bodies left with hate messages.
In Mali, one of the world's poorest countries, few women escape the torture of genital mutilation, many are forced into early marriages, and one in 10 dies in pregnancy or childbirth.
In the tribal border areas of Pakistan, women are gang-raped as punishment for men's crimes. But honour killing is more widespread, and a renewed wave of religious extremism is targeting female politicians, human rights workers and lawyers.
In oil-rich Saudi Arabia, women are treated as lifelong dependents, under the guardianship of a male relative. Deprived of the right to drive a car or mix with men publicly, they are confined to strictly segregated lives on pain of severe punishment.
In the Somali capital, Mogadishu, a vicious civil war has put women, who were the traditional mainstay of the family, under attack. In a society that has broken down, women are exposed daily to rape, dangerously poor health care for pregnancy, and attack by armed gangs.

 

[La Sagna]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

You are really hung up on that word 'feminist' aren't you? I don't care what you call it, I believe in the equality of all human beings and I choose to put my energies into helping women and girls because I know that women are more vulnerable, and in most of the world women are still treated as second class citizens. I personally call it feminism.

I've never been to Scotland and I haven't studied your laws so I can't speak as to how it is there, perhaps women are more dominant there but here in Canada I can assure you it is not the case. We are enshrined as equal in our constitution and the laws protect both women and men equally.

I noticed that you pick and chose the way you showcase the argument that you pose that somehow men are the ones who are disadvantaged in this world of ours.

In your arguments you will say in one instance that we have to accept that men and women are different and that men are more sexual and women are more motherly (I don't disagree with you on that in a general way but there are many exceptions that deserve the right to be whatever they want to be) and on the other hand men are somehow pushed into wanting to play football and hunt and go to war (this denies the fact that men in general, again there are lots of exceptions, are more aggressive because of their testosterone). I agree that men and women are different but if you're going to want people to accept that then please don't you have a double standard and say that they are only different in the way you want to promote and not in the ones you want to ignore.

In your analogy about football you make it sound like it is the cheerleaders making the men want to play football (or the women pushing the men). In the case of american fooftball players and cheerleaders then they are definitely put in very specific sexualized roles but both the men and the women are there through their own choice.

Men themselves want to play football. It comes from them. My oldest son played rugby, contact hockey and lacrosse and these are all very physically aggressive games and that is why he liked them. As his mom I was not a fan of the physical nature of the games and the fact that he would come back sometimes hurt or that he would hurt some of the other kids. I know many parents who won't allow their children to play these games because of these reasons but I could see that my son really enjoyed it and even though I didn't understand it he also needed to work off his aggression in a fairly healthy manner through these types of sports. If I had banned him from playing I believe that he would have spent more time beating up his brother or getting into other types of trouble. The first time he went to a rugby tournament, when I picked him up at the end of the day he was all beat up and bruised and looked awful. My first instinct was to ask him if he was ok and if he wanted to quit rugby (in my mind who wants to get beat up like that?). He laughed at my reaction and said no that he loved it and couldn't wait to play again. Believe me I had nothing to do with pushing him towards these violent physical games and would have preferred that he didn't play them but as a mom who cared about him I wanted him to be happy and well-adjusted and if what he needed was to play physical games then I supported him in that.

I haven't looked up the studies about people saying that it is worse when women die than when men die, if that is the case then that surprises me, and that would be a problem in my opinion. I don't understand that stance because I have sons and I can tell you that if one of them died it would not hurt less or be less tragic than for someone who has a daughter who dies. If that is the case that people believe that then I think they should rethink their stance on that.

 

[invisible]

They're actively made fun of, by women and men alike. Masculinism can never be a real thing...

Anyway @muir has said everything that needs to be said. 10/10

feminists have always been actively made fun of, under some of the worst odds possible, like when they were not allowed to vote, or like when they were being lobotomised because they didnt find housewifery fulfilling, or like now when 20% of american college women will be raped, and that hasnt ever stopped them. but seriously, please give up on your cause if you want to. considering you are too defeated by the idea of being made fun of to be bothered making it a "real thing", your devotion to it is so pathetic that i dont think it will make the slightest difference to what extent you pursue it.

 

[BrokenDaniel]

[MENTION=9809]La Sagna[/MENTION] made a really interesting point that reminded me of something, but i can't remember if it was in this thread.

There are a lot of women out there, at least where i live, who are pretty much sexists towards their own gender, or at least, most of their aggresion is directed towards women, not men. Not in an activistic kind of way, i'm talking about behaviour. It's pretty much normal, like saying that she's a b!tch, or not enough for someone, while acting very passive towards men who happen to be jerks. I have some female friends who usually fought like that, and it was pretty scary to say the least.
Also there's still a lot of women who are pretty much old fashioned in their views too, and they act like complete @ssholes towards the younger ones who don't share their views on how traditionally a woman was supposed to behave.

 

[La Sagna]

[MENTION=9809]La Sagna[/MENTION] made a really interesting point that reminded me of something, but i can't remember if it was in this thread.

There are a lot of women out there, at least where i live, who are pretty much sexists towards their own gender, or at least, most of their aggresion is directed towards women, not men. Not in an activistic kind of way, i'm talking about behaviour. It's pretty much normal, like saying that she's a b!tch, or not enough for someone, while acting very passive towards men who happen to be jerks. I have some female friends who usually fought like that, and it was pretty scary to say the least.
Also there's still a lot of women who are pretty much old fashioned in their views too, and they act like complete @ssholes towards the younger ones who don't share their views on how traditionally a woman was supposed to behave.

You are absolutely right. As a woman I have personally encountered more women than men who have been sexist or judgemental towards me. That's why I don't believe it is a women vs men issue. I also believe that most of the pressures on men to behave like 'men' come from other men.

 

[muir]

@muir

You are really hung up on that word 'feminist' aren't you? I don't care what you call it, I believe in the equality of all human beings and I choose to put my energies into helping women and girls because I know that women are more vulnerable, and in most of the world women are still treated as second class citizens. I personally call it feminism.

No women are not more vulnerable

More men die violent deaths than women. When women go out they fear being raped....when men go out they fear having their head stomped into the curb...which would you rather endure?

Your perception is completely wrong

Men are at most risk

I've never been to Scotland and I haven't studied your laws so I can't speak as to how it is there, perhaps women are more dominant there but here in Canada I can assure you it is not the case. We are enshrined as equal in our constitution and the laws protect both women and men equally.

I very much doubt that fathers have the same rights as mothers in canada....once again you are blinded by your bias

I noticed that you pick and chose the way you showcase the argument that you pose that somehow men are the ones who are disadvantaged in this world of ours.

You still have not watched the warren farrel clip otherwise you would understand a different perspective to this

because you have not been exposed to a perception outside the box you are continuing to see the issue within the men v's women box in which it has been framed for you

This is a false perception

Men have been enslaved for centuries...THAT IS THE TRUTH

In your arguments you will say in one instance that we have to accept that men and women are different and that men are more sexual and women are more motherly (I don't disagree with you on that in a general way but there are many exceptions that deserve the right to be whatever they want to be)

I don't believe i have said that in this thread

I also have never argued that people don't have the right to be what they want to be

I think the system pushes both men and women into being things they don't want to be and instead of challenging the system women have sought to compete with men within the system

This would be like two gangs of prisoners in a prison fighting over power within the prison instead of joining together to break out of the prison....it will lead to both sides being enslaved and miserable

and on the other hand men are somehow pushed into wanting to play football and hunt and go to war (this denies the fact that men in general, again there are lots of exceptions, are more aggressive because of their testosterone).

They are brainwashed to see reality within a box the same way that you have

They are taught by their school, by their indoctrinated parents and peers and by the TV that these things are the norm and that they are expected of them

Hunting is different...it was a necessity

War too was sometimes thrust upon people

But the burden for both fell on men and no doubt women at the time were appreciative of it (modern women on the other hand don't even know where their food comes from and never worry that an invading horde is going to descend on them at any moment)

I agree that men and women are different but if you're going to want people to accept that then please don't you have a double standard and say that they are only different in the way you want to promote and not in the ones you want to ignore.

Such as?

You are making baseless accusations without speccifically giving any examples

In your analogy about football you make it sound like it is the cheerleaders making the men want to play football (or the women pushing the men). In the case of american fooftball players and cheerleaders then they are definitely put in very specific sexualized roles but both the men and the women are there through their own choice.

I disagree...i think they are there because they are unable to see outside the box

Reality is framed for them a certain way and they are trying to navigate their way through that game

For them to consciously choose they would need to be consciously aware of the manipulations and you only have to see how some people here reject some of the things i'm saying about how manufactured our society is to realsie that many people do not realise how controlled and manipulated our society is

Men themselves want to play football. It comes from them.

No it doesn't....it comes from society

If you brought a man up in total isolation he would not suddenly feel an urge to play football....he wouldn;t even be aware that there was such a thing as 'football'

My oldest son played rugby, contact hockey and lacrosse and these are all very physically aggressive games and that is why he liked them. As his mom I was not a fan of the physical nature of the games and the fact that he would come back sometimes hurt or that he would hurt some of the other kids. I know many parents who won't allow their children to play these games because of these reasons but I could see that my son really enjoyed it and even though I didn't understand it he also needed to work off his aggression in a fairly healthy manner through these types of sports.

He was working within the system he was born into and he was encouraged from many sides to do so

If I had banned him from playing I believe that he would have spent more time beating up his brother or getting into other types of trouble. The first time he went to a rugby tournament, when I picked him up at the end of the day he was all beat up and bruised and looked awful. My first instinct was to ask him if he was ok and if he wanted to quit rugby (in my mind who wants to get beat up like that?). He laughed at my reaction and said no that he loved it and couldn't wait to play again. Believe me I had nothing to do with pushing him towards these violent physical games and would have preferred that he didn't play them but as a mom who cared about him I wanted him to be happy and well-adjusted and if what he needed was to play physical games then I supported him in that.

You are still thinking inside the box

I see it totally differently to you

I think: 'why is the young man needing to be violently aggressive in the first place?' Is society channeling him and his energies in a healthy way or is it teaching him to compete in a tribalistic way that doesn't produce any tangible thing

Our whole society has been conditioned to value transient and empty things instead of things of substance

What is produced from a rugby match? Nothing....hot air

I used to play rugby too...now i learn hard skills which i can use to produce useful things

Being able to kick a ball or bring people to the ground at high speed has been of little use in my life

I haven't looked up the studies about people saying that it is worse when women die than when men die, if that is the case then that surprises me, and that would be a problem in my opinion. I don't understand that stance because I have sons and I can tell you that if one of them died it would not hurt less or be less tragic than for someone who has a daughter who dies. If that is the case that people believe that then I think they should rethink their stance on that.

They think it because they are programmed to think that way

Women who are militantly waging war against men under the banner of 'feminism' should open their eyes to the forces at work in our society on both men and women and they should stop saying they are exclusively victimised...thats bullshit

I'm going to post this video here that skarekrow posted in another thread in the hope that it may help you to see outside the men v's women box:

[video=youtube;IOiUrF74F14]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOiUrF74F14[/video]

 

[muir]

You are absolutely right. As a woman I have personally encountered more women than men who have been sexist or judgemental towards me. That's why I don't believe it is a women vs men issue. I also believe that most of the pressures on men to behave like 'men' come from other men.

You are still thinking in the men v's women box!

Can you not see that BOTH men and women are exploited?

Can't you see that feminism is nothing more than a move to divide and rule men and women?

 

[La Sagna]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

More men die violent deaths than women. When women go out they fear being raped....when men go out they fear having their head stomped into the curb...which would you rather endure?

This comment here makes you an ass. You can be raped too, which one would you rather endure? Some men and some women have not been able to get over being raped and end up killing themselves. Making light of rape is very ignorant.

It is very obvious from your latest comments that you have a very difficult time looking at things objectively. You are promoting the idea of men vs women. If you actually read what I write then you would see that I don't, but it is getting more and more obvious to me that you cannot debate these types of things objectively.

 

[Deleted member 12009]

If you mean that feminists are made fun of by women and men then you must be speaking of uninformed and immature individuals who actually don't realize what it is all about. Everything is made fun of on Social Media and those who want to mock the people who believe that the millions of women in the world who are still living in a patriarchal society today don't deserve our help or somehow don't exist then they can crawl back under their rock of ignorance feeling secure that in their little world they can afford to mock it. I am glad that so many of them lead such comfortable lives that they can afford to do that but even in Canada you have to be wilfully blind and shroud yourself in ignorance to not face the problems and violence faced by aboriginal women.

Here are facts about the problems women face in certain countries, and even though many men also suffer in these countries women are the ones who are more vulnerable and face a disproportionate amount of the violence and the great majority of the perpetrators who cause the harm are men:

No i'm talking about men's rights movements. There's not much support for those outside the internet.

 

[muir]

@muir




This comment here makes you an ass. You can be raped too, which one would you rather endure? Some men and some women have not been able to get over being raped and end up killing themselves. Making light or rape is very ignorant.

I'd rather be raped

That doesn't mean i don't think rape is terrible but i would rather be raped then physically kicked into whatever state or stabbed

It is easier to recover from rape than it is from death

I have acknowledged the risks women run...the question is: 'can women acknowledge the risks that i as a man run?'

I suspect many of them will not because they are unable to see past their programmed bias

It is very obvious from your latest comments that you have a very difficult time looking at things objectively. You are promoting the idea of men vs women. If you actually read what I write then you would see that I don't, but it is getting more and more obvious to me that you cannot debate these types of things objectively.

I edited the clip above to include a video clip about the system that both men and women are enslaved in

Please stop saying men are enslaving women...you are wrong

Men are enslaved too

The only way we will all be free is when we all wake upto that reality

 

[La Sagna]

No i'm talking about men's rights movements. There's not much support for those outside the internet.

Sorry, I misunderstood. That's why I asked.