INFP boyfriend (philosopher) does not believe in the subconscious or in intuition | INFJ Forum

INFP boyfriend (philosopher) does not believe in the subconscious or in intuition

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Artemisia, Jun 30, 2018.

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  1. Artemisia

    Artemisia Community Member

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    I wonder if this is an INFP trait or one associated specifically with my philosopher boyfriend. He teacher epistemology and is one of those types who, although very creative and poetic, does not believe in the subconscious, thinks that all people are basically good, and that ulterior motives in others are basically in our own minds.
    Sometimes I have disagreements with him. For example, he tells me that his friends will always be there for him and that they love him etc. I tell him that if he becomes more successful, many of these male friends will grow distant from him because his success is a reminder of their own failure. He does not agree with this.

    As an INFJ I am very good at detecting hidden motives in people. I know, for example, that I need to steer clear of that person because she is jealous or a gossip. I can also detect microexpressions on someone´s face which reveal true emotions. My boyfriend, being an epistemologist, believes that all of this is in my head and that their true motives are basically good.

    Am I wrong in thinking that my boyfriend is naive about humans? Are INFP men in general idealistic and naive?
     
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  2. Pin

    Pin "Magnificent Bastard" / Ren's Counterpart

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    I think he's wrong about humans; if we agree then you're probably not wrong.

    Compared to ENTJs, probably.
     
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  3. Wyote

    Wyote ○●○
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    I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. Are people basically good? For the most part, yes. And I would argue that the proof here is apparent in that we have progressed in humanity slowly over time. Things have generally improved. This would not be the case were people generally bad. Are they full of fallacious arguments, unique experiences, chemical imbalances and differing cognitive abilities within their own minds, culminating in bizarre reactions and various potentially negative social behaviors? Also yes.

    The key factor is in observing whether a person is trying. That's all anyone's really got.

    What areas are you not trying in? A good question to ask yourself.
     
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    #3 Wyote, Jun 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
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  4. Asa

    Asa Resident palindrome

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    @Artemisia, your BF sounds like the epitome of an INFP stereotype. I hope the truth of the world doesn't destroy him.
     
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  5. JennyDaniella

    JennyDaniella Stargazer

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    Well, if I was here in this forum say about seven years ago, I would have been identified more with as an INFP, why? Because I also had a similar issue and perspective regarding the morality and motives of people like your partner; however, as time went on, my high expectations of people have unfortunately lowered considerably.

    Good individuals that I have presumed to have high character and morals later soon disappoint me, and it saddens me to see that not everyone will have the same type of virtues and humble perspectives as you do.

    Having high expectations is probably the worst thing. I've been down that road, and I always ended up feeling disappointed or shocked. Granted, there are wonderful people with amazing character and intentions, but then there are some that makes you question humanity.

    Observing others is one thing I have always been exceptionally good at. I can detect bullshit from a mile away, just like yourself. I wish I once had that certain innocence and positive perspective of others, but after being hurt continuously and seeing the cruel capabilities that humans can do to one another... you just can't help but feel pessimistic and rather cautious at times.
     
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  6. Sloe Djinn

    Sloe Djinn Idiot with Internet Access.

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    Bf sounds idealistic in thinking his friends will always be there for him. I don’t understand how you can deny the existence of the subconscious.

    At the same time your view of people distancing themselves from him for seeing their failures in his success....sure that could happen but it sounds like one of a million possibilities, maybe saying more about you than your intuition as an infj.
     
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  7. John K

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    If your boyfriend is old enough to have kept his optimistic outlook after being knocked about by life a bit, then he could be a treasure with such a positive attitude towards people! If that's so and you both got to value the other's perspective rather than being irritated by it, you could find that you compensate and complement each other well. On the other hand, if he's not had to suffer some of life's ups and downs yet, then maybe you are right to be a bit concerned. How does he actually deal with difficult people situations? As a philosophy teacher he must come across a few among his students and colleagues. I must say that I do rather like his attitude to people as you describe it - it's so easy to become cynical and there is a lot of good in us all as well as some bad stuff as @Wyote says. Needs to be tempered with sensible caution though, because you can get hurt otherwise.
    It's very interesting that he doesn't believe in the unconscious: what exactly is it that he doesn't believe in? Is this his view as an epistemological philosopher or is it more of a layman's view? It certainly sounds like a topic that could interest him professionally. Looking at the internet, there seems to be plenty of controversy among psychologists about the nature and scope of the unconscious mind so a minimalist professional attitude towards it may well be quite respectable, though like @Sloe Djinn I don't see how you could eliminate it.
     
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  8. charlatan

    charlatan Permanent Fixture

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    I'm idealistic too, but in a different way -- I do not think everyone is good to the same degree, but I think a lot of people with the basic instinct to be good can be corrected to approximate goodness to very high degrees because it's more a flaw in rationality than a flaw in their goodness. That is, if they cleared their thoughts up they'd be better vs having to fundamentally change. I'd probably say SOME of his friends may behave disappointingly if he succeeds, but not all necessarily -- because that's stereotyping/some stupid 'we're all flawed/original sin' crap, and I think it's actually an easy way out....the truth is some are way better people than others, and it's better to call the people who fail failures for objectivity's sake.
    I think there are people without any obvious flaws in their moral character, too, in the sense of having truly good intentions (although I'd say executing the right action may be impossible even given this, because the world does not always provide us with the right information to make the rational choice)

    I'm with @Wyote on the whole humanity progressing thing -- I think a lot of the time people who wanted to be good didn't realize the poor reasoning they were employing, and over time society progressed (at snail's pace admittedly) as these were recognized.


    As to the whole subconscious thing, well, depending on what we mean, I'm slightly sympathetic to him here.... I mean, I really don't buy much into the idea of entering the ever-murky waters of 'who knows, that loving friend underneath may hate you without even knowing it' --- for the most part I prefer straighforward walks-like-a-duck thinking here.
    I think if someone exhibits bad behavior after seeming good, it's likely their consciously aware philosophy is not good already, not that consciously they're good but unconsciously not or something.

    OTOH if he plain just says everyone is good, that's harder to believe given the array of people out there.
     
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  9. charlatan

    charlatan Permanent Fixture

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    BTW, can't agree more...I often note that I judge people mostly on their intentions, which includes the trying thing of course (I think actions are evidence of intentions -- but actions don't have to mean ones which produce success, merely ones trying the hardest to produce it). I don't think the world is always fair and gives us the tools to succeed, so I prefer to place the blame where due, i.e. if someone's intentions are totally good, it's better to just blame the world. I don't like giving too much room to the whole 'everybody is flawed' idea which is a lot easier to support if you look at things besides trying....because it tends to give shade to people who want to just excuse themselves.
     
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  10. ruji

    ruji Well-known member

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    there's a difference between delusional + ignorant + naive + living in a bubble, and optimistic
     
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  11. Wyote

    Wyote ○●○
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  12. Gaze

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    People can be idealistic and still see the truth. They may simply choose to ignore it, not dwell on it, think or react differently. There's a lot of maybes.
     
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    #12 Gaze, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  13. Chickensoup

    Chickensoup Community Member

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    I don’t think not believing in intuition or the subconscious has anything to do with being an INFP. That’s just his own skepticism about things. You’re not that different, you’re just skeptical of other things - that his friends will leave him if he succeeds, for instance. I’m not sure you being skeptical of his friends helps you with his skepticism of parts of your own personality though. I would find it a little invalidating if my boyfriend said my intuition wasn’t real.
     
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  14. Lurk

    Lurk [ what ]

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    He's right. If "reality" is just an individual's perception -- then that individual can claim his own "truth." Of course, said individual often ironically declares his perception as The Real Truth.

    Great essay on "post-truth."

    https://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2017/02/05/not-post-truth-as-too-many-truths/

    So, his opinion isn't "accurate," except as an Alternative Fact(tm)

    Oh Jesus Christ.

    Of course you're right. lol

    Sometimes, but he's being ridiculous.
     
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  15. Asa

    Asa Resident palindrome

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    I hope more INFPs pipe in.


    The two major INFPs in my life are naively, idealistically positive, to the point that they cause themselves (and sometimes others) unhappiness. I know not all INFPs are like this, and there are INFPs on this forum that don't fit that stereotype.
     
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  16. Misadventure

    Misadventure butt fros and asian purrs

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    Thank you!

    This is less to do with infp vs infj and so much more to do with individual perception. Both are idealistic types and both are stubborn af when it comes to their own ideals and the way they want to see the world.
     
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  17. Wyote

    Wyote ○●○
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  18. Gaze

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    Agree. I'm a little . . . ok, I'm very annoyed by the constant reference to INFPs as somehow naturally clueless, dumb, or naive, simply because they are NFPs and don't think like an infj/INTJ or have the intuition of the infj. It implies that the infj or other T or J types are naturally more all knowing, better, or smarter while the FP types just doesn't get it. It's demeaning and dismissive. It's tiring to constantly see these kinds of comments subtly or directly presented on the forum in different threads. It's not necessary to put one type down to feel good about your own self or your type.
     
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  19. Misadventure

    Misadventure butt fros and asian purrs

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    Agreed, the need to feel/act/and try to convince others of one's superiority is just trying to cover up one's own insecurities. I see these people as having a wildly fragile ego masked by arrogance and pretentiousness.
     
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  20. Asa

    Asa Resident palindrome

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    I'm sorry for hurting both your feelings. I know not all INFPs are like this. Some are. (I know two, and I'd explain thoroughly why the way the are like this connects to INFP stereotypes, but I lack the ability to be brief, and would derail the thread.)
    It is definitely not out of a need to feel superior, or due to my insecurities. I'm pretty open about the fact that I don't feel superior to others, and pretty honest about my insecurities and shortcomings. There are a lot of stereotypes about all the types, and all the types have shortcomings. Sometimes they the stereotypes fit, other times they do not. Individual growth, self-awareness, (im)maturity, and development of one's stack all play a part.
    I will gladly laugh and nod all day long about INFJ stereotypes* and how awful we are for various reasons. We're like grumpy INFPs. :tonguewink:

    *We can't be brief once we start talking. Good gods, we are such bores!
     
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    #20 Asa, Jul 2, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2018
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