INFJs and Vegetarianism

[Eventhorizon]

Being at the top of the food chain means that we can plant and grow things, cook things, import and export food, replicate food and even genetically modify them.

Animals at the bottom of the food chain- Tigers, Lions and the like cannot farm, nor cook nor import/export food sources. They are entirely reliant on their external environment in which are migrant to weather, and must only eat what is available to them to kill.

Being at the top of the food chain means that we don't have to kill other animals for food sources, because we have the ability to farm, cook, replicate and clone foods and even genetically modify them.

Tigers/lions/etc cannot get all their necessary vitamins and nutrients from their environment. We, HUMANS, can. We even know how to replicate and extract each specific amino acid and vitamins that we need to survive. In fact, our scientists won Nobel Prizes for this since the 1920s, when it was discovered that humans who were prone to certain diseases were VITAMIN DEFICIENT.

Im sorry but meat is an absolute staple of the human diet. The only reason anyone can survive as a vegetarian today is because of society today. Food thats allows them to eat that way can be imported from far away. Vitamins can be made and purchased etc... a vegetarians world was built from meat eaters. Human physiology evolved to process meat. Your brain wouldnt function as well without the energy that comes from meat. You believe this is an argument but its not. I am simply making factual statements.

 

[Lerxst]

Im sorry but meat is an absolute staple of the human diet. The only reason anyone can survive as a vegetarian today is because of society today. Food thats allows them to eat that way can be imported from far away. Vitamins can be made and purchased etc... a vegetarians world was built from meat eaters. Human physiology evolved to process meat. Your brain wouldnt function as well without the energy that comes from meat. You believe this is an argument but its not. I am simply making factual statements.

Actually, you're making opinionated statements loosely based on some form of an outdated text. Fact - Asian diets had relatively little meat historically. As a result, their diets also tend to be lower in protein, but they don't exactly ride the "short bus", do they? The human brain lives and thrives off of carbohydrates, not proteins.

What we call "lack of protein" in the Western world has been the standard for millennia in the Eastern world. Anyone claiming they don't have enough energy as a vegetarian has either had another serious health issue surface in that time, cut out other essential parts of their diet without researching or suffers the placebo effect (mind over matter).

We can easily grow any and all of the ingredients we need to survive without importing anything. Beans, corn and squash. Native Americans found that out several hundreds of years before Europeans showed up and the tribes that adopted agriculture were the ones that developed entire civilizations and had the most wealth, power and influence in the Americas while the hunter-gatherers were still living in tents and chasing buffalo around.

You know what the call the area civilization began? The Fertile Crescent. Why? Because it supported crops. Without vegetables and grains, the human race wouldn't have been able to thrive and advance. We'd still be defecating in our loincloths, clubbing our wives over their heads and dragging them into our caves to feast on some freshly roasted Mammoth tail.

 

[sprinkles]

Actually, you're making opinionated statements loosely based on some form of an outdated text. Fact - Asian diets had relatively little meat historically. As a result, their diets also tend to be lower in protein, but they don't exactly ride the "short bus", do they? The human brain lives and thrives off of carbohydrates, not proteins.

What we call "lack of protein" in the Western world has been the standard for millennia in the Eastern world. Anyone claiming they don't have enough energy as a vegetarian has either had another serious health issue surface in that time, cut out other essential parts of their diet without researching or suffers the placebo effect (mind over matter).

We can easily grow any and all of the ingredients we need to survive without importing anything. Beans, corn and squash. Native Americans found that out several hundreds of years before Europeans showed up and the tribes that adopted agriculture were the ones that developed entire civilizations and had the most wealth, power and influence in the Americas while the hunter-gatherers were still living in tents and chasing buffalo around.

You know what the call the area civilization began? The Fertile Crescent. Why? Because it supported crops. Without vegetables and grains, the human race wouldn't have been able to thrive and advance. We'd still be defecating in our loincloths, clubbing our wives over their heads and dragging them into our caves to feast on some freshly roasted Mammoth tail.

Also though we need to keep in mind the definition of "meat" that we're going to use. For example in Japan at a point people did not eat "meat" as a rule, it was actually banned (by Emperor Tenmu) but this "meat" did not include fish, and a lot of people probably continued to eat fowl as well.

Edit:
Also the amount of meat I eat in a day is typically smaller than the palm of my hand, and often I don't eat any. I don't seem to have any problems whatsoever with energy or vitamins.

I eat a lot of greens, beans, peppers, root vegetables, and fruit, as raw as possible. Rice to bulk things up a bit. I try to limit processed foods that come out of a box or can. And I almost never feel tired, sore or lacking energy.

 

[AJ_]

They’re the Largest Meat Producer in World—What’s Caught on Video at Their Farm Is Beyond Disturbing
Link to article

Some questionable practices of a prominent U.S. livestock farm have surfaced, and they’re not just disturbing, they’re downright gross.
McGiniss Farms, supplier for Tyson Chicken, is catching heat for hidden camera footage that allegedly depicts some less-than-sanitary treatment of their chickens.

Non-profit organization Mercy For Animals (MFA) placed a hidden camera inside McGinnis Farms, located in Dagsboro, DE, to capture the damning images.

Among the abuses the video shed a light on:
• Chickens living in their own waste, while packed together in tight confinement
• Workers violently clubbing animals to death, breaking their necks, and leaving severely sick and injured animals to die without food or water
• Baby birds thrown to the ground from transport crates, suffering broken bones and other severe injuries
• Chickens bred to grow at a rate which leaves them crippled under their own weight, leading to cardiovascular and organ failure

[video=youtube;EpAVL5bLNOc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpAVL5bLNOc[/video]

 

[PintoBean]

About 8 years ago, I saw a short clip showing how cows are abused in slaughter houses. The feeling/compassionate side of me saw this and vowed to no longer eat meat. Being a complete idiot when it comes to nutrition at the time, I ended up eating a bunch of pretzels and basically gave up after about two months....

Same timing and issues for me. Wonder if we saw the same clip (it was for an expose news show, I think maybe "60 Minutes"). I have struggled with having a balanced diet for years! And the simple issue of malnutrition has repeatedly caused me to fall off the veg wagon, if only for a bite here and there. It's hard, because by the same veg logic, avoiding most dairy applies too. I was close to lacto-vegetarianism for years and have never felt worse. Recently started getting milk and eggs from a local free range farm and feel much better. I still have issues getting the right protein though and not binging on carbs. I think empaths in general are likely to be vegs. My sister, who is an extrovert, has been a vegetarian since she was about 8. Maybe there is a genetic predisposition to vegetarianism because my other sister is a vegetarian too since childhood. Neither parents are.

 

[sprinkles]

They’re the Largest Meat Producer in World—What’s Caught on Video at Their Farm Is Beyond Disturbing
Link to article

Some questionable practices of a prominent U.S. livestock farm have surfaced, and they’re not just disturbing, they’re downright gross.
McGiniss Farms, supplier for Tyson Chicken, is catching heat for hidden camera footage that allegedly depicts some less-than-sanitary treatment of their chickens.

Non-profit organization Mercy For Animals (MFA) placed a hidden camera inside McGinnis Farms, located in Dagsboro, DE, to capture the damning images.

Among the abuses the video shed a light on:
• Chickens living in their own waste, while packed together in tight confinement
• Workers violently clubbing animals to death, breaking their necks, and leaving severely sick and injured animals to die without food or water
• Baby birds thrown to the ground from transport crates, suffering broken bones and other severe injuries
• Chickens bred to grow at a rate which leaves them crippled under their own weight, leading to cardiovascular and organ failure

[video=youtube;EpAVL5bLNOc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpAVL5bLNOc[/video]

The megacorporate food industry is corrupt in general. The fruit and vegetable industry is disgustingly wasteful and harmful to the environment with their chemicals and machine harvesting. And even if you get organic produce, most of the time it is selected to be perfect looking which means a lot of blemished or malformed but still perfectly good food gets wasted.

I'm sure many of the produce companies would readily abuse animals if it were in their interests to do so. The fact that they may not need to doesn't mean they are any more ethical.

 

[JJJA]

I will always eat meat and nobody will change that.

 

[Free]

Please excuse the length of this...

When I was 10 years old, our entire 5th grade class took a field trip to a small family-run farm who advocated free-range techniques. We bottle-fed the baby cows and sheep; we fed seeds to the chickens and “slop” to the pigs. We visited the berry patches and watered the rows of vibrant vegetables. At the end of the day, we all sat at picnic tables sipping on lemonade while the teachers and farm staff came with steaming platters of delicious food.

The farmer, whose name escapes me, was a strapping man in his mid-50’s. He talked about how he provided a “good” life for his animals, and clean living. We began eating the wonderful food that was prepared for us as he continued to talk about his farming techniques and why small farms are so important. Half way through our meal, as he was munching on a turkey leg, he said, “Everything you’re eating now came from my farm, grown right here by the people right here. Those veggies were just harvested, that fruit was just picked.” He swallowed his mouthful of tender turkey and took a big gulp of his iced tea. With a proud grin on his face, he wiped the sweat from his brow saying, “And those chops you’re eating- that lamb was harvested just this morning.”

Immediately images of blood, pain, and slaughter flashed through my mind. The baby lamb I had just fed milk to, was I eating its mother? I was horrified and burst into tears. I had always thought of animals just like humans -sentient beings with memories and emotion. I was still weepy by the time I returned home and explained to my mother my reasons why I didn’t want to eat meat ever again. For years after I couldn’t eat meat without feeling like a cannibalistic fiend. I would have physical reactions to even the smell of it. Probably because I enjoyed the pleasant aroma and was very conflicted, caught up in what the animal was feeling. Was it in pain? Was it frightened? Did it leave behind a family that would miss it?

Again in high-school, we had to read a book entitled The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. It depicted the terrible conditions immigrants lived and worked in the newly industrialized cities of the early 1900’s. Its main characters worked in the meat-packing industry with the detailed descriptions of what both the workers and the animals endured further solidifying my feelings.

Things changed for me in early adulthood- 22ish. After becoming a bit wiser to the world, and the cycles of life, this feeling began to dissipate. It was an understanding that I gained through an adult mind and not that of an overly-sensitive empathic child. My thinking side had finally started to develop and I could logically argue with myself about the pros and cons of it all. I started to eat fish again, then poultry, and finally red-meat and pork. I felt better. With everything that I absorb from the world around me, I had always had this feeling of lethargy and physical weakness. Eating balanced meals filled with veggies and properly portioned lean proteins helped me to become physically stronger with an equally quicker mind- a much healthier me.

This was my personal experience. Now, I happen to be a firm believer in evolution. Our body and mind's development was directly impacted through our environment. It is fact that what spurred the growth of the human brain and physical development is animal protein. We are the strong minds and bodies of today because our early ancestors ate meat. I honestly believe that to further evolve, animal protein is a necessary part of our diet. We are not herbivores. We are not carnivores. We are omnivores and are not the only species of such on this planet. If you choose to be one or the other, that is your personal choice for whatever personal reasons you may have.

That, and bacon is delicious...

 

[flower]

Eating meat, using dairy products, using leather, wool, silk etc. you get the idea... It makes me feel bad and guilty. For me chicken or cow isn't any different from dog or cat. I'm not going to talk about any health aspects here or how it affects to someone's health, because people can eat whatever they want or not want, LOL. People can decide by themselves what they want to eat and if someone wants to eat animals products, it's not my business... I can only live my life. I just can't justify myself eating meat or using dairy anymore. It makes me emotionally sick and sad. They're my friends. Call me stupid if you want... But this is how I think and feel. I will use other food to get my protein. Also veggies, fruits, berries, seeds, lentils etc. will give me all the nutrients I need.

 

[Free]

I wonder if, centuries and centuries down the line, herbivore and omnivore humans will evolve separately. Hmm... food for thought.

 

[Misadventure]

For those that are bringing morality into the mix... Hitler was a vegetarian. Lol. I am a pescatarian tho not for moral reasons. I just like fish better.

 

[sprinkles]

For those that are bringing morality into the mix... Hitler was a vegetarian. Lol. I am a pescatarian tho not for moral reasons. I just like fish better.

Who are we to judge anyway? Animals eat other animals yet the ones who are questioning it are the ones that screw up the world the most.

Humans don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to sound judgement.

 

[PintoBean]

Who are we to judge anyway? Animals eat other animals yet the ones who are questioning it are the ones that screw up the world the most.

Humans don't exactly have a good track record when it comes to sound judgement.

Non-human animals also eat poop regularly.

 

[sprinkles]

Non-human animals also eat poop regularly.

Yes? And?

Humans eat poop regularly too. I don't think you even want to know how much poop there is flying around.

 

[PintoBean]

Yes? And?

Humans eat poop regularly too. I don't think you even want to know how much poop there is flying around.

Lol, well I really try to avoid it whenever possible. Though yeah, it's in our fertilizer etc. But my dogs, for example, just love the stuff. They actively seek it out. They're like "yay, poopsicle!" and scarf it up.

 

[sprinkles]

Lol, well I really try to avoid it whenever possible. Though yeah, it's in our fertilizer etc. But my dogs, for example, just love the stuff. They actively seek it out. They're like "yay, poopsicle!" and scarf it up.

It's normal for them. Humans find it gross because humans are strange, squeamish creatures. We're not even allowed to see a female nipple, and many people gross out at seeing a live birth, so I think understanding poop eating is a bit beyond humans.

 

[Mermaid Amalthea]

In my real life experience, this topic makes people act crazy, on both sides of the line. I will go out of my way to avoid it if I sense someone's reaction to my diet is going to be volatile.

I became vegetarian because my husband's views persuaded me, after years. I even stubbornly continued to cook him meat, which he ate. His peaceful views finally wore me down. I've been pescetarian for three years now.

One thing that got to me when I thought about making this change was the current availability of meat, and its cheap price. Most people are really separated from the animal-rearing and slaughtering process, and when it comes up in a conversation, often meat-eaters will immediately say something jaded to distance themselves from the issue. If I lived in the Western world in a time before factory farming, I probably would not be vegetarian. The same level of cruelty was not present on family farms. People did not kill and eat as many of their own animals. They were responsible for doing the whole work of slaughter themselves.

 

[sprinkles]

In my real life experience, this topic makes people act crazy, on both sides of the line. I will go out of my way to avoid it if I sense someone's reaction to my diet is going to be volatile.

I became vegetarian because my husband's views persuaded me, after years. I even stubbornly continued to cook him meat, which he ate. His peaceful views finally wore me down. I've been pescetarian for three years now.

One thing that got to me when I thought about making this change was the current availability of meat, and its cheap price. Most people are really separated from the animal-rearing and slaughtering process, and when it comes up in a conversation, often meat-eaters will immediately say something jaded to distance themselves from the issue. If I lived in the Western world in a time before factory farming, I probably would not be vegetarian. The same level of cruelty was not present on family farms. People did not kill and eat as many of their own animals. They were responsible for doing the whole work of slaughter themselves.

That's how I feel.
I don't think eating animals is wrong per se. But I do think tormenting and disrespecting them and taking them for granted is very wrong, and that's what the meat packing industry does.

I think it's ok to eat them if you respect them. It's also ok to not eat them because you respect them.

 

[Tin Man]

I couldn’t eat meat without feeling like a cannibalistic fiend.

That's the only reason I eat meat.

 

[invisible]

there is no relationship between the vegetarianism of Hitler and the ethics of vegetarianism. of course his vegetarianism does not balance out the moral scales of his life or make his terrible crimes acceptable. the things he did in his life were evil, but this has nothing to do with whether or not his vegetarianism was ethical, or whether vegetarianism in general is ethical. the vegetarianism of Hitler is anecdotal, and is entirely extraneous to the issue of the ethics of vegetarianism, unless the point is that there is no such thing as a "good person" anyway. maybe that was the point that was intended to be made, and if so please excuse these remarks.

there are many aspects of the meat production industry and meat consumption practices that are ethically questionable. these aspects are not necessarily clearly right and wrong, but often are a matter of gradation, and are all tangled up in a giant knot, as matters of morality tend to be. the idea that the emotional and thought worlds of other animals are less valid than those of humans, and any less deserving of preservation, is the most questionable and inherent part of killing animals for food, but there are other significant problems with it too. for example, the environmental resources that are involved in the farming of meat products, and the environmentally damaging matters that are generated through meat production; and as a problem that is connected to this, the massive quantities of waste that are involved in a meat market economy. another problem is the treatment of various animals at slaughter time, such as male chicks. something that these problems have in common is the difficulty of achieving universal standards of care for the animals. for most of the meat that is consumed, there will be no available narrative about the origins of the specific piece of meat and the processes that it has been involved in prior to purchase. even for people who attempt to obtain meat products through more ethical sources, there will be times when they consume meat with no available history attached to it. it is just "meat".

what i have never understood about most people who habitually consume animal flesh is the intensity with which they defend their decision to support an industry that slaughters animals by engaging in commerce with that industry as an ethically neutral decision when it is so blatantly not ethically neutral. the problems i mentioned are not castles in the air. i am not able to understand why people are not able to just responsibly say to themselves "OK, i eat meat, and this is not an ethical decision, but i choose to do it anyway." instead, they are frequently making comments such as "eating meat is not inherently unethical", as though it were clearly a monochromatic matter of right and wrong. this is irrational; the only thing that is clear is that eating meat is an ethically problematic decision.