If Jesus didn't die on the cross then....
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Aside from all the many rich observations made in the Epistles, I think there is part of this mystery that we will never fully understand. Aside from great and cosmic love that caused God to mediate a solution where none existed, solving a huge problem that exists in humanity, and opening a path where none existed, there is this whole matter of physics and Divine power. The passage made by Christ into the nether world, the self-rising from the dead after three days, the bodily changes exhibited in His resurrected form (to whom many were eyewitnesses) gives one cause to wonder. I think the entire mystery is actually quite mind-numbing when one considers the cosmic forces at work.....I am sure every law of physics was bent, broken, moved, or otherwise suspended.
It saddens me that we have come to take this all casually when it is so truly remarkable. I suspect many do this because actually dealing with the implications involved is simply too much for them. Eyewitness accounts of the resurrection are alluded to even in the Epistles which pre-date the Gospels and directly refer to eyewitnesses that were still living.
As for crucifixion itself, it was a simply a way for the Romans to instill terror...psychological warfare, if you will.
It saddens me that we have come to take this all casually when it is so truly remarkable. I suspect many do this because actually dealing with the implications involved is simply too much for them. Eyewitness accounts of the resurrection are alluded to even in the Epistles which pre-date the Gospels and directly refer to eyewitnesses that were still living.
As for crucifixion itself, it was a simply a way for the Romans to instill terror...psychological warfare, if you will.
That depends
where in DNA is the original sin gene
apparently sin is a protein that is cleansed by the blood of Jesus
This. I don't believe in God though. I don't believe Jesus was divine. I think he was just a person, a great person, but still just a person nonetheless.
The crucifixion of Christ was not truly harming Him, but humanity.
You may try and kill that which is good, but all you are doing is removing the good from yourself - the good never truly dies.
Open your heart, and the good comes in. You cannot harm the good, you can only lock it out.
You may try and kill that which is good, but all you are doing is removing the good from yourself - the good never truly dies.
Open your heart, and the good comes in. You cannot harm the good, you can only lock it out.
Jesus did die on the cross. .
however, he conquered death so that you may live. . .whether you believe that or not. .adn I dont mean to start a debate about it. . it is something that happened adn the grace available because of it is freely given to anyone who chooses to accept it. . if you choose not to thats ok. . it's still there. .
His death is recorded as well as any death from that historical era. . .
however, he conquered death so that you may live. . .whether you believe that or not. .adn I dont mean to start a debate about it. . it is something that happened adn the grace available because of it is freely given to anyone who chooses to accept it. . if you choose not to thats ok. . it's still there. .
His death is recorded as well as any death from that historical era. . .
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Matthew 27:46
Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
This is the only saying of Jesus on the cross that is in more than one gospel. For me it sums up the point of the "Christ". In "Answer to Job" Carl Jung psychoanalyzes the God of the Old Testament, by the time the book of Job is written it would appear that "his" morality is in question as "he" kills Job's family for the sake of a bet. Jung points out that God had to become human and endure the total human experience. And what is more totally human then the experience of being forsaken by God?
Matthew 27:46
Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
Mark 15:34
And at the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
This is the only saying of Jesus on the cross that is in more than one gospel. For me it sums up the point of the "Christ". In "Answer to Job" Carl Jung psychoanalyzes the God of the Old Testament, by the time the book of Job is written it would appear that "his" morality is in question as "he" kills Job's family for the sake of a bet. Jung points out that God had to become human and endure the total human experience. And what is more totally human then the experience of being forsaken by God?
He did die on the cross, and he knew he was going to, (according to the storybooks) and he let it happen because he knew he had to give blood sacrifice to appease (loving) gods anger to save mankind, the point of the cross according to the religion is his instrument of death and without the death/sacrifice there wouldnt have been able to be a religion. I think thats why some Christians say god changed from the OT to the NT from being vengeful and all that jazz to being an old hippy in the clouds, because the blood sacrifice was made.
Look, if the reason for this thread is to troll, then consider me a victim.
If the reason is the challenge unbelievers to believe in Jesus/God/etc., you will never win by reason, because you are:
Assuming there was a crucifix to begin with: Look up the word stauros (meaning "stake", never "cross", until well after Jesus supposedly died).
Assuming there was a Jesus to begin with: Look up Nazereth (which did not exist archeologically until well Jesus supposedly died).
Assuming there is an absolute truth in Christianity: Look up Nicean Council (where dogma was decided by vote called upon by a calculating Roman emperor, not divine inspiration).
Assuming the OT and NT God(s) were the one and same: Look up Marcionism and gnosticism generally.
Assuming the Bible is an original, reliable source: Read Epic of Gilgamesh; also explain the conflict with geology, radiocarbon dating, etc.
If the reason is the challenge unbelievers to believe in Jesus/God/etc., you will never win by reason, because you are:
Assuming there was a crucifix to begin with: Look up the word stauros (meaning "stake", never "cross", until well after Jesus supposedly died).
Assuming there was a Jesus to begin with: Look up Nazereth (which did not exist archeologically until well Jesus supposedly died).
Assuming there is an absolute truth in Christianity: Look up Nicean Council (where dogma was decided by vote called upon by a calculating Roman emperor, not divine inspiration).
Assuming the OT and NT God(s) were the one and same: Look up Marcionism and gnosticism generally.
Assuming the Bible is an original, reliable source: Read Epic of Gilgamesh; also explain the conflict with geology, radiocarbon dating, etc.
Ok. So, I asked the question: If Jesus didn't die on the cross, then what was the crucifixation about?
I’ve rephrased the responses according to my understanding of them (so please correct any misunderstandings).
[MENTION=2926]Bird[/MENTION] Torture Context: If he didn’t die, then the crucifixation was about torture.
[MENTION=3115]Animekitty[/MENTION] Original sin Context: did die
[MENTION=731]Hoggle[/MENTION] Future generations discussing it online Context: If he didn’t die, then the crucifixation was about future generations discussing it online.
[MENTION=3846]Artsu Tharaz[/MENTION] Not about Christ, about humanity. Good never dies. Context: did die
[MENTION=1098]randomsomeone[/MENTION] Psychological warfare Context: did die
[MENTION=4459]Sensiko[/MENTION] Guilt Context: If he didn’t die, then the crucifixation was about guilt.
[MENTION=3361]Wish[/MENTION] Psychological warfare Context: did die
[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION] Blood sacrifice Context: did die
[MENTION=564]acd[/MENTION] Apathy Context: not understanding the question
@Spailspin Conquered death so you may live Context: did die
[MENTION=1939]StudebakerHawk[/MENTION] To fully endure the total human experience, including being forsaken by God Context: did die
[MENTION=4199]SpilledMilk[/MENTION]
Someone asks a question you appear to take offence to, and you infer that they're trolling?
Challenge unbelievers to believe in Jesus? How does the question do that? So far, I haven't received any conversions, so you may rest easy.
Yes, clearly the question is based on the hypothesis that there was a Jesus. I could ask how many floating pink elephants has anyone ever seen, which would hypothesise their existence, without actually making their existence fact.
Yes, clearly the question is based on the hypothesis that there was a Jesus and he didn't die on the cross, which would assume there was a crucifixion on a crucifix of Jesus, and not a stake. Well done. Although I do find it interesting that you state that a word had a different meaning at that time compared to a later time, when really, how could you possibly know?
Err, since I am questioning whether or not Jesus died on the cross, and if not, what was the point of the crucifiction, I find it extremely amusing that it supposedly assumes "absolute truth in Christianity". And no, I don't need to look up the Nicean Council to ask the question, nor indeed to answer it.
How on earth is this question based on the assumption that the "OT and NT God(s) were the one and same"? And no, I don't need to look up Marcionism and gnosticism generally in order to ask, nor answer, this question.
Err, since I am questioning whether or not Jesus died on the cross, and if not, what was the point of the crucifiction, I find it extremely amusing that supposedly it assumes "the Bible is an original, reliable source". And no, I don't need to read Epic of Gigamesh to ask, nor answer, this question.
Thank you soooo much for your recommended further reading, but I'll decline, since it clearly hasn't helped you.
I very much appreciate the responses to a hypothetical question. If it disturbs you, then you don't need to respond. But it cannot be answered from the position that he did die since it asks “If Jesus didn’t die, then….”
If Jesus didn’t die on the cross, then what was the crucifixation about?
I’ve rephrased the responses according to my understanding of them (so please correct any misunderstandings).
[MENTION=2926]Bird[/MENTION] Torture Context: If he didn’t die, then the crucifixation was about torture.
[MENTION=3115]Animekitty[/MENTION] Original sin Context: did die
[MENTION=731]Hoggle[/MENTION] Future generations discussing it online Context: If he didn’t die, then the crucifixation was about future generations discussing it online.
[MENTION=3846]Artsu Tharaz[/MENTION] Not about Christ, about humanity. Good never dies. Context: did die
[MENTION=1098]randomsomeone[/MENTION] Psychological warfare Context: did die
[MENTION=4459]Sensiko[/MENTION] Guilt Context: If he didn’t die, then the crucifixation was about guilt.
[MENTION=3361]Wish[/MENTION] Psychological warfare Context: did die
[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION] Blood sacrifice Context: did die
[MENTION=564]acd[/MENTION] Apathy Context: not understanding the question
@Spailspin Conquered death so you may live Context: did die
[MENTION=1939]StudebakerHawk[/MENTION] To fully endure the total human experience, including being forsaken by God Context: did die
[MENTION=4199]SpilledMilk[/MENTION]
Someone asks a question you appear to take offence to, and you infer that they're trolling?
Challenge unbelievers to believe in Jesus? How does the question do that? So far, I haven't received any conversions, so you may rest easy.
Yes, clearly the question is based on the hypothesis that there was a Jesus. I could ask how many floating pink elephants has anyone ever seen, which would hypothesise their existence, without actually making their existence fact.
Yes, clearly the question is based on the hypothesis that there was a Jesus and he didn't die on the cross, which would assume there was a crucifixion on a crucifix of Jesus, and not a stake. Well done. Although I do find it interesting that you state that a word had a different meaning at that time compared to a later time, when really, how could you possibly know?
Err, since I am questioning whether or not Jesus died on the cross, and if not, what was the point of the crucifiction, I find it extremely amusing that it supposedly assumes "absolute truth in Christianity". And no, I don't need to look up the Nicean Council to ask the question, nor indeed to answer it.
How on earth is this question based on the assumption that the "OT and NT God(s) were the one and same"? And no, I don't need to look up Marcionism and gnosticism generally in order to ask, nor answer, this question.
Err, since I am questioning whether or not Jesus died on the cross, and if not, what was the point of the crucifiction, I find it extremely amusing that supposedly it assumes "the Bible is an original, reliable source". And no, I don't need to read Epic of Gigamesh to ask, nor answer, this question.
Thank you soooo much for your recommended further reading, but I'll decline, since it clearly hasn't helped you.
I very much appreciate the responses to a hypothetical question. If it disturbs you, then you don't need to respond. But it cannot be answered from the position that he did die since it asks “If Jesus didn’t die, then….”
If Jesus didn’t die on the cross, then what was the crucifixation about?
Well then yes, this has all extremely silly since crucifixion was, in fact, a form of execution. I suspect all subjected to it (and there were so many) did indeed die.
What was the crucifixion about?
That God allows even the worst sins against himself - Deicide
And that He himself undergoes the punishment due for such sins, so that justice is fulfilled - Satisfaction and Atonement
(Aquinas says that smallest punishment endured by Christ was of such great merit, because He is the Son of God, that the shedding of one single drop of His blood was sufficient to atone for all of the sins of all men for all time)
So that sinners don't have to fulfill/be subjected to strict justice, but simply avail themselves of the benefit of His fulfilment of justice - Redemption
This allows even the worst sinners to be freed from sin and become friends of God - Salvation
The motive for the crucifixion, on the part of Christ was both to fulfill justice and to extend the friendship of God to men.
The motive for the crucifixion, on the part of the Jewish priests, was probably envy - and on the part of the Romans, to appease the crowds and avert a riot - ie. cowardice.
That God allows even the worst sins against himself - Deicide
And that He himself undergoes the punishment due for such sins, so that justice is fulfilled - Satisfaction and Atonement
(Aquinas says that smallest punishment endured by Christ was of such great merit, because He is the Son of God, that the shedding of one single drop of His blood was sufficient to atone for all of the sins of all men for all time)
So that sinners don't have to fulfill/be subjected to strict justice, but simply avail themselves of the benefit of His fulfilment of justice - Redemption
This allows even the worst sinners to be freed from sin and become friends of God - Salvation
The motive for the crucifixion, on the part of Christ was both to fulfill justice and to extend the friendship of God to men.
The motive for the crucifixion, on the part of the Jewish priests, was probably envy - and on the part of the Romans, to appease the crowds and avert a riot - ie. cowardice.