How to be free? | INFJ Forum

How to be free?

Chessie

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Apr 5, 2010
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There's a very curious idea I want to expound on a little and maybe get some ideas in return. It is the idea of freedom. This word seems to contain some elements of liberation, self actualization, personal determination, independence. Most people upon reading those terms would say that sounds positively lovely.


I am going to postulate a few statements about freedom which may make it seem somewhat less attractive.


A free person must necessarily free themselves from restraint of king, country, and affiliation.
A free person must only act as an individual within any collective even when acting for the collective.
A free person may be never owned nor indebted.
A free person must free themselves. They cannot be given it as a right nor born into it as a nationality.


Thinking about these statements makes it hard to imagine oneself in modern culture as genuinely free under any circumstances. You can't have a credit card and be free. You can't own a house with a mortgage and be free.


If you vote in a two party system you're voting as part of some party or agenda decided by the cultures fears and ideals unless you vote for pie. Pie is good. I'm writing in for pie and dammit pie better get elected or I am going to be very cross.


People have written whole bibles worth of books on this idea without confronting the growth of a person as bondage. From birth you are locked by the needs of belly and helplessness to your mother's breast and to dependence. As you learn to walk, you are locked to walls for keeping your balance and as you trot out the door to school you give away the endless potential of your mind in chunks for a hint of certainty and security.


Alternatively if you reject all of those things you aren't given to grow. You die or in the case of the last you are beholden to ignorance.


Okay, we've laid out the basics of this idea of being free and denied it on all fronts. Now lets see how we achieve it!


As a person grows the theory is that you get more self determination. You learn and gain strength, both physical and psychological, from which you are enabled as a person to decide where you want to go and what you want to do.


At age six you want some candy but you can't have it. At age thirty five you want some candy but you decide you want your health more. So you prioritize and you're free to do that.


If you're in prison then ostensibly you aren't free. If your body is imprisoned but your mind imagines it's way into other galaxies then what are you? A nightingale, blinded and singing from it's cage? If your mind can go to more places and do more things than those that decide to shape of the world...does this make you more free than they, despite your subjugation?


A rich man is considered to be free. He is able to make more financial decisions than a poor man. Still, the rich man may not wander the streets and smile at the sunlight without his retinue of expensive bodyguards. As he glares at the impoverished beggar, his clothes ragged, his beard overgrown, the wealthy individual must realize for just a second that he is paying for the priviledge of that blue sky whereas the indigent person gets it without a price-tag.


In that moment he might just realize how deeply his affluence has capitvated him and at what cost.


What do you do with freedom once you've got it?


How do you know you're free?


Here is an interesting shift. In the instance of relationships based on domination and submission the submissive personality (if it is a relatively healthy relationship) can feel more free when they are in a state of bondage because they aren't required to make decisions. Equally the dominating personality (again, if they are relatively healthy) can feel a sense of genuine responsibility.


How is it that someone who is tied to a chair can be more free than someone who tied them to it?


If we look at freedom as purely an abstract based on what actions we take or what circumstances we are in then we all sit somewhere on a spectrum more towards subjection if we live as part of a society. This is pretty much the same way our cells can be said to be servile to the body.


If Freedom is something real and meaningful then what is it? Is it our ability to think? Our willingness to act within our minds but outside of the limiting factors of where we are just now? Do we want to self-determine if self-determination means hacking off the comforts of submission in favor of some great ideal which we can't achieve realistically but can only strive for and move toward, improving ourselves but never reaching perfection?


Is there perfect freedom in perfect submission? In perfect domination?


I do hope that this has presented some new thoughts to people. I am afraid I've stumbled into the trap plenty of philosophers do of asking questions more than I answer and revealing how little I actually know.
 
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Is there perfect freedom in perfect submission? In perfect domination?

Absolutely not, I would suggest it is in being neither subvertiant nor domineering that freedom is.

The problem is that the social character of our societies is generally sado-masochistic, in a psychosocial sense now not a psychosexual one, or at least mainly a psycho-social one, and the reality is that no matter how sadistic a person is they are still masochistic because they need to object to dominate, they need to objectify others, others dont necessarily need them and could walk away from them and leave them screwed in the process.

I think the family and schools have a lot to do with the consistent reproduction of this pattern of behaviour and character, although they are just a reflection of the extent to which the managerial revolution has unconsciously and consciously shaped everything since its day. A lot of the developed world doesnt even have the same patterns of unschooled, unskilled mass employment any longer but it still has the habits and mindsets which went with it.
 
Freedom comes from knowing the truth.

Oog, this opens a gigantic can of philosophical worms the like of which I can't see myself digging into. Needless to say one abstract has been answered with another.
 

A free person must necessarily free themselves from restraint of king, country, and affiliation.
A free person must only act as an individual within any collective even when acting for the collective.
A free person may be never owned nor indebted.
A free person must free themselves. They cannot be given it as a right nor born into it as a nationality.
So Freedom is the lack of ties. Even though they might help you out, they can hold you back at some point, reducing freedom.

When I think of freedom, I consider the mind first... nothing can stop the mind from thinking what it wants, right? But:
as you trot out the door to school you give away the endless potential of your mind in chunks for a hint of certainty and security.
If the mind can gel, it's not free. One could argue that the mind is great for narrowing you options... and that's how you come to make decisions about what to do with your free will... you have to decide what you do with your time.
We're tied to time and space.
Energy is tied to time and space.
Nothing is completely free.

Now I'm back to entertaining the idea that there's no such thing as free will, and that the velocities of the first bits of energy determine everything that has and will ever happen in the universe...


In practical terms,
If your mind is informed by your deepest self, not outside factors, then your mind is free... but then there's that whole development thing.
You're tied to yourself, and you didn't have all of the control in forming that.

If we have souls, that must be what's free... unless it's stuck with the body while it's around.


Sigh... this was fun :)
Probably returning to it later, because time and space and my body are limiting my freedom pretty bad right now.
 
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I am told we are always controlled by something, we just have to choose what controls us. This makes such sense to me, I really can't refute it's logic. I guess if you surrender to it, and pick something you don't fear, something you can lean into... something that supports you in the healthiest way possible... I mean, it brings to mind the film "Into the Wild." You can reject & rebel from the entire system, and the ties that bind you, yet still be controlled by the visceral realities of hunger, etc. We can't escape into total freedom on this planet, it seems to me.
 
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There was a statement made earlier in another place where I posted this about 'Death being the only freedom' and I am still mentally hammering on that idea with all my strength.

I find it flawed but formulating the words to say how is proving difficult.
 
I love this thread, btw, [MENTION=2575]Chessie[/MENTION]. Yeah, but what choice do we have in death? I mean I guess I'm saying, assuming there is an afterlife. It's not our choice! It seems even LESS free, because I don't assume we have free will in any afterlife where Heaven & Hell exist. I am told we won't mind taking orders in Heaven & will be tortured in Hell. I suppose if you mean the physical act of taking one's life is our sole act of absolute freedom, you may be correct.
 
In death we gain the endless possibilities of simply not knowing. We go back to day one, birth, and in the instant of death even if oblivion is our end we cannot know nor say...and that leaves us with everything. Anything.

On the flip side death is a certainty. Taken as a genuine end, where birth is a reconstruction, entropy is a dissolution. Death could mean becoming part of many different things. It could be freedom or purgatory in bondage to our atoms.
 
I love how you put this. As an INFJ I feel that I already have the endless possibilities of not knowing here on Earth. Anything is possible. Everything is possible. Why not? INFJs are not grounded in reality. Perhaps that makes us free...

I think about how Nelson Mandela spent all those years innocently imprisoned, & I feel any INFJ can do that. We retreat inside our minds, we can be anywhere we choose. You can't hold us. You can't break our will. We can only really imprison ourselves in the dark caverns of our minds. To trap a body is not trapping the soul.
 
Uh... sorry, I basically reiterated ( and not nearly as well) what [MENTION=2097]burntbythesun[/MENTION] said in an earlier post.
 
To my mind, one will always have attachments. Survival, success, goals, desires, whatever. Without these things to guide our behavior we would be without function to the world we inhabit and, presumably, dead long ago (but we adapt!) . The choice one has is to determine how thick the shackles - if shackles they be - are and what they're made of. "Freedom" is perceptual, relative to position; therefore, perhaps there is only the infinite opportunity of pre-programmed data sets -- in the end, does it make a difference? If we are chattel, the collars won't come off but we'll still feed off the grass and give milk. If we are the ones with the whip and map (agency), then responsibilities are shifted but they are responsibilities (to whatever determines behavior) nonetheless.

Maybe. I haven't slept in a few days, so my logic is bound to be faulty somewhere (if not everywhere).
 
We are already free since the moment we are born, we could be dependent, limited but no one could ever take our freedom away. We just don't know what to do with all of this freedom, so we are constantly struggling to find more. Just my few rubles..
[off-topic] Btw, Chessie, hello to you from Wisconsin! I think that we are the only ones here. Madison is an awesome city, lots of good memories. [/off-topic]