How do you think you would compare.?

[LucyJr]

The idea that some people would either be completely different people without religion or would act differently. Take religion away from them and what do you end up with?

I think you asked a good question.
Its like you would ask what were people whithout God. Can you see what I mean?
Humility is a moral value. Take God out of the equation and you don't have morality, you don't have anything objectively good.

Take religion away from them and what do you end up with?

In all honesty, and conform to all the Bible premises, that we're nothing whithout God, the answer is chaos.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I think you asked a good question.
Its like you would ask what were people whithout God. Can you see what I mean?
Humility is a moral value. Take God out of the equation and you don't have morality, you don't have anything objectively good.


In all honesty, and conform to all the Bible premises, that we're nothing without God, the answer is chaos.

And yet, I do not believe in God. I do not have this instant desire to do something other than good. I do not have a desire to use people. Without a God, I still see the relevance in a statement like, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I answer to nothing with exception of myself. How is it that I am able to think this way without a god watching over me?

 

[Eventhorizon]

As a note, I do not discard peoples belief in a universal consciousness. I do however completely believe that the God as described in the bible was manufactured by man to control man. The person who tells me, "I find my religion in the woods and in the life all around me" garners far more respect from me than the person who says, "I do good for I fear punishment from my God."

 

[LucyJr]

And yet, I do not believe in God. I do not have this instant desire to do something other than good. I do not have a desire to use people. Without a God, I still see the relevance in a statement like, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I answer to nothing with exception of myself. How is it that I am able to think this way without a god watching over me?

The Bible says that whithout God we are nothing. If we have good in us, is by the grace of God.
Perhaps you are a good person because of God's grace, the God which you don't believe in.

 

[Eventhorizon]

The Bible says that whithout God we are nothing. If we have good in us, is by the grace of God.
Perhaps you are a good person because of God's grace, the God which you don't believe in.

Ah... I can assure you this is not the case. You believe in God, yet your God has absolutely no domain over me. My saying this will undoubtedly not change your mind though. Never the less it does need to be said.

 

[Eventhorizon]

[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] This isnt exactly the thread for it but..

In your religion there is the story of Jesus the night before or a few days before the day he died. God told him that he would die, though I dont exactly remember if he told him how he would die. That night, Satan came to him and offered him a way out.

Does this story sound familiar?

If theres an itch in your mind telling you not to go any further with this, to play along, it might be prudent to acknowledge it. I have caused at least one priest to walk away from their faith with this one argument. He told me exactly this. I am always curious to see how it plays out with different people.

 

[LucyJr]

Ah... I can assure you this is not the case. You believe in God, yet your God has absolutely no domain over me. My saying this will undoubtedly not change your mind though. Never the less it does need to be said.

If God exists, he has absolutly no domain over you or anybody else. Very true. But:

Nevertheless, He made you and all what exists.
As a being that has capacity for free will, you yourself can chose wether you obey to Him or not. There is not a single other alternative.

And all of these, if He exists only. Not if I do believe in Him. Its not about belief here. Its about if He exist and He is God.
Or if He doesn't exist, than atheism is true.

But the big questio is: Does He exist or not?

 

[LucyJr]

[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] This isnt exactly the thread for it but..

In your religion there is the story of Jesus the night before or a few days before the day he died. God told him that he would die, though I dont exactly remember if he told him how he would die. That night, Satan came to him and offered him a way out.

Does this story sound familiar?

If theres an itch in your mind telling you not to go any further with this, to play along, it might be prudent to acknowledge it. I have caused at least one priest to walk away from their faith with this one argument. He told me exactly this. I am always curious to see how it plays out with different people.

Sure, I'll try to answer your question

 

[La Sagna]

People would find that I have high standards and that many people fall below them. I feel disappointed by people a lot, especially when I feel they are avoiding responsibility or trying to place more of the burden on my shoulders. I can tell when someone could've been able to this or that and are blatantly avoiding it. I don't think people realize that when they say no to tasks that they fall toward me and because I have a hard time saying no I end up doing more than my fair share of work. This upsets me. People would also find how sad my heart is when I'm not treated with the pleasant, considerate manner in which I treat them.

I can really relate to this. It's been the story of my life. Nobody would care if I drowned in the pile of stuff I end up doing that nobody else wants to do. Everybody can count on me but I can't count on anybody. Sorry, I'm just having a little moment of feeling sorry for myself, but that doesn't change anything. I'm better now .

 

[Eventhorizon]

[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] Ok this is going to take a bit of a lead up so bare with me. Im not sure I remember the exact story but my understanding is that God told Jesus shortly before he would die, that he would die and how. That evening Jesus was momentarily fearful and kept asking God why he had been forsaken. During the time that Jesus was fearful and alone, Satan came to him and told him something like he didn't have to go through with it. In the end Jesus rejected Satan and followed Gods will. Do I have this correct so far?

 

[LucyJr]

[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION] Ok this is going to take a bit of a lead up so bare with me. Im not sure I remember the exact story but my understanding is that God told Jesus shortly before he would die, that he would die and how. That evening Jesus was momentarily fearful and kept asking God why he had been forsaken. During the time that Jesus was fearful and alone, Satan came to him and told him something like he didn't have to go through with it. In the end Jesus rejected Satan and followed Gods will. Do I have this correct so far?

No.

 

[Eventhorizon]

No.

No, the story is not one that you have heard or no its not correct?

 

[Eventhorizon]

Ok well anyway. That’s not getting anywhere so Ill just let it spill on the table. Jesus asked God why he had been forsaken while he was on the cross. Now Jesus knew he was the son of God and Jesus knew that when he died, he would be reborn. After that, would end up in heaven. Knowing this, why would he ask God why he had been forsaken? Why would he have any concern about dying at all? For Jesus, dying would be like going from the slum life, to living in Hawaii on the beach, 72 degrees outside with a slight breeze, drink in hand surrounded by people that loved him. Jesus could never know what it was like to be human because he never knew the fear of death. You see, it turns out humans are scared of the unknown but for Jesus where he would end up was not unknown to him.

One of the premises of a few religions is that God knew what it was like to be human through Jesus and he knew what it was like to lose a son through Jesus death. But an all knowing God would have certainly known exactly where Jesus was going to end up, so he knew he would never lose him. God also didn’t know what it was like to be human, because Jesus certainly never did. And who couldnt claim to be divine if they could walk through life with absolutely no fear. Life was easy for Jesus. Hey all I have to do is this short stint on earth, when I am done Ill be living the party life with my peeps up in heaven. No problem.

God cant be claimed to be all knowing if he doesn’t know the fear of death. God couldnt comprehend real death without having been dead at some point and to be dead…well you simply don’t come back from it ever. But humans can contemplate death and what it means to cease to exist forever.

 

[LucyJr]

No, the story is not one that you have heard or no its not correct?

You asked me " Do I have this correct so far?", and I said 'No', because you hadn't.

 

[Eventhorizon]

You asked me " Do I have this correct so far?", and I said 'No', because you hadn't.

Sure. I believe I have it correct above. Jesus asking why he had been forsaken on the cross etc.. Any thoughts?

 

[DonTaushMe]

The idea that some people would either be completely different people without religion or would act differently. Take religion away from them and what do you end up with?

People flock to religion because it's a group of others who think the same why they do. You take the idea of god away there will still be some other idle people infuse with the same ideals. People get out of certain religions because they mostly don't agree, and people stay in certain religions because they mostly do agree. If you take god and you prove he doesn't exist it really wouldn't matter for the majority who practice Christianity, they will continue practicing. It's not the god they idolize, it's the teachings. They believe that the teachings make them better people, whether it's in this life or the next. People wouldn't be worse off without religion. They will always believe what they want to believe and flock to those who believe the same.

The only way a person would be different in a theoretical 'if you lived this life - if you lived that life' would be if that one person were surrounded by two very different types of groups of people. However people flock to those whom they have something in common with, so it theoretically would never happen.

 

[Eventhorizon]

People flock to religion because it's a group of others who think the same why they do. You take the idea of god away there will still be some other idle people infuse with the same ideals. People get out of certain religions because they mostly don't agree, and people stay in certain religions because they mostly do agree. If you take god and you prove he doesn't exist it really wouldn't matter for the majority who practice Christianity, they will continue practicing. It's not the god they idolize, it's the teachings. They believe that the teachings make them better people, whether it's in this life or the next. People wouldn't be worse off without religion. They will always believe what they want to believe and flock to those who believe the same.

The only way a person would be different in a theoretical 'if you lived this life - if you lived that life' would be if that one person were surrounded by two very different types of groups of people. However people flock to those whom they have something in common with, so it theoretically would never happen.

I understand what you are saying but Im not sure I agree. I saw a show once where Christian and catholic priests where trying to float the idea that when you die, you don’t go to hell, only heaven. After all, what kind and loving God could ever allow someone to be tortured?
Now it was a documentary but as with all things you still have to keep an open mind. These particular folks had been expelled from their congregation. Assumingly because the people didn’t like the idea there was no hell even though they gave provocative reasoning to their argument.
Its not only about God, its about what happens when you die. Most people aren’t happy with how they see their lives playing out, believe they should have more…be treated differently. Religion tells them that if they are good little boys and girls here for 70 or so years, they will be rewarded for an eternity by being allowed into heaven. Apparently once you are in heaven you can’t continue to accumulate evil and will never be kicked out unless you are Satan.

Anyway, the source of power is reward and punishment. Take God away, a being that has say and power over all things, and theres just not that assurance anymore. Why not lust after your friends wife. Why not steal money if no one is watching etc… (Even though the idea you would go to hell for stealing money is actually funny to me)

 

[LucyJr]

Ok well anyway. That’s not getting anywhere so Ill just let it spill on the table. Jesus asked God why he had been forsaken while he was on the cross. Now Jesus knew he was the son of God and Jesus knew that when he died, he would be reborn. After that, would end up in heaven. Knowing this, why would he ask God why he had been forsaken? Why would he have any concern about dying at all? For Jesus, dying would be like going from the slum life, to living in Hawaii on the beach, 72 degrees outside with a slight breeze, drink in hand surrounded by people that loved him. Jesus could never know what it was like to be human because he never knew the fear of death. You see, it turns out humans are scared of the unknown but for Jesus where he would end up was not unknown to him.

One of the premises of a few religions is that God knew what it was like to be human through Jesus and he knew what it was like to lose a son through Jesus death. But an all knowing God would have certainly known exactly where Jesus was going to end up, so he knew he would never lose him. God also didn’t know what it was like to be human, because Jesus certainly never did. And who couldnt claim to be divine if they could walk through life with absolutely no fear. Life was easy for Jesus. Hey all I have to do is this short stint on earth, when I am done Ill be living the party life with my peeps up in heaven. No problem.

God cant be claimed to be all knowing if he doesn’t know the fear of death. God couldnt comprehend real death without having been dead at some point and to be dead…well you simply don’t come back from it ever. But humans can contemplate death and what it means to cease to exist forever.

Ok, I'll try to answer

1.Fear is sin. We fear because we sin. When God created humans, there was no fear, until sin come into the heart of men.
"There is no fear in love, for perfect love cast out all fears" - 1 John 4:18 OBS: Hovewer, there is one fear whcih is good and perfect, and that is a reverential fear of God, the Creator of all things!
Deduction: Fear is a human experience, but not only human, but a sinful experience. Its a direct cause of sin. Yes, Jesus was human, but he was whithout sin.

2. The Bible say Jesus was sinless, tempted in all ways just like we are, but he was whithout sin, the only perfect human being that had ever walked on this Earth, the only being that had fulfilled the Law of God.

3. The Bible say that death is a direct cause of sin. Death was not existent before the sin come into the world.

Jesus could never know what it was like to be human because he never knew the fear of death. You see, it turns out humans are scared of the unknown but for Jesus where he would end up was not unknown to him.

Exactly, Jesus never was afraid because Jesus never sinned. So Jesus wasnt' "scared" by anything.

One of the premises of a few religions is that God knew what it was like to be human through Jesus and he knew what it was like to lose a son through Jesus death. But an all knowing God would have certainly known exactly where Jesus was going to end up, so he knew he would never lose him. God also didn’t know what it was like to be human, because Jesus certainly never did. And who couldnt claim to be divine if they could walk through life with absolutely no fear. Life was easy for Jesus. Hey all I have to do is this short stint on earth, when I am done Ill be living the party life with my peeps up in heaven. No problem.

God knows everything, but he doesn't sympathise with everything. God knows about sin, about fear, but that doesn't mean that God experiences sin and fear. See, the problem is that you equate knowledge with experience!

God cant be claimed to be all knowing if he doesn’t know the fear of death.

This is again, wrong. God knows about death and about the fear of death, but God can not die and can not experience fear.
Death and fear are caused by sin and are sin.

And, to answer this in another way: How could God be dead??? Are you aware of the intrinsic contradiction in your question?
How could the One who is Glory and Life, who is self-existent and everlasting, to die?

God couldnt comprehend real death without having been dead at some point and to be dead…well you simply don’t come back from it ever.

By the existence of Life, Death is measured. So why do you try to measure Life by the absurdity of Death?
In other words, how could Life be dead, or won over by Death?
Which is intrinsically good, Life or Death?

But humans can contemplate death and what it means to cease to exist forever.

I can't contemplate dead at all. Can you? Explain how it is!

 

[Kgal]

If all of a sudden people could understand other peoples thoughts, how do you think you would compare to everyone else in the world?

Angry, sad, happy, insane?

Typed on phone hence mis type

All of the above and more!
Actually I'd be ecstatic because finally we'd be able to see what everyone else is going through!

How do you think YOU would compare?

 

[DonTaushMe]

I understand what you are saying but Im not sure I agree. I saw a show once where Christian and catholic priests where trying to float the idea that when you die, you don’t go to hell, only heaven. After all, what kind and loving God could ever allow someone to be tortured?
Now it was a documentary but as with all things you still have to keep an open mind. These particular folks had been expelled from their congregation. Assumingly because the people didn’t like the idea there was no hell even though they gave provocative reasoning to their argument.
Its not only about God, its about what happens when you die. Most people aren’t happy with how they see their lives playing out, believe they should have more…be treated differently. Religion tells them that if they are good little boys and girls here for 70 or so years, they will be rewarded for an eternity by being allowed into heaven. Apparently once you are in heaven you can’t continue to accumulate evil and will never be kicked out unless you are Satan.

Anyway, the source of power is reward and punishment. Take God away, a being that has say and power over all things, and theres just not that assurance anymore. Why not lust after your friends wife. Why not steal money if no one is watching etc… (Even though the idea you would go to hell for stealing money is actually funny to me)

They wouldn't do it because they themselves actually think it's wrong. I've had a conversation with a buddy, not very similar to this as I don't give a fuck what people believe in as long as they aren't shits to each other, however something that he ended up saying in the end is the same as what you have just stated and I asked him, "If there was no god telling you what was right and what was wrong, would you still sleep with your friends wife? Or steal peoples money?" and he laughed a shy laugh thinking over the possibilities and as his demeanor dropped into something more serious he said, "No, I wouldn't." Regardless of god, he will always feel to himself that if he did those things they would be bad.

It is not 'the fear of god!" that makes people act the way they do, if it were you'd be saying the bible is truth -given to us by god- and you know it's not. People wrote the bible because they already felt this way and they decided their teachings should be shared. You aren't going to listen to Joe Schmo and his authoritative ideals about how you should live your life, but you will listen if you think these ideals came from a god, an all knowing being that will give your final judgment.

So would the world go into chaos without god and his morals? No, because those morals are the majorities morals, they have always been. Now do a lot of those morals need to change? Hell yes, but they wont because of the idea of 'god.'

I think the more people grow in society the more we learn there isn't a god and for those who do blindly follow they may now be thinking to themselves, "Hey, none of this matters, I can do whatever I want!" but when they go outside and talk to each other, they very soon realize it matters, not in the next life, it matters right now.