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Homeschooling

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by sriv, May 18, 2008.

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  1. sriv

    sriv Community Member

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    I am bringing this topic up directly in reaction to Kwistalline's propagation of homeschooling. In other words, I'm a thirsting for an argument :twisted:. Plus I want to see if it is actually a good idea to implement it. A large part of it is parental relationships...so I put it in this forum.

    Benefits of homeschooling as I see it:
    -no pressure from peers or from teachers (includes bullies, druggies, forced conformity)
    -leniency of learning at one's own pace
    -your grades are private (they can be in school too)
    -initimate relationship with parents
    -one on one education (the same case with tutoring)
    -dangers of outside world are gone, break-ins are the only one (includes psychological relief for parent)
    -overall more freedom

    Benefits of formal schooling:
    -more experience in the outside world
    -less dependence on parents and more independence
    -socializing potential is far greater than in home
    -meeting peers of similar age group, connecting, and sharing interests
    -teacher is trained in the art and has former experience teaching the same topic
    -because of this there is less use of potentially boring textbooks
    -offers a more rounded educational experience
    -brings introverts out of their "comfort zone" (I would consider this a benefit)

    The disadvantages are the opposite of the benefits in most cases. I have no idea about the monetary issues behind all this.

    According to my thoughts, formal schooling outweighs homeschooling. Anything I missed? I am sure there are.
     
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  2. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    I remember reading from studies that they found the older a child is, the more they would profit from homeschooling. High school and junior high aged kids profit significantly more from homeschooling than do elementary aged kids. Obviously this is the result of kids going through adolescence and having their interests split many different ways. For example, adolescents become more obsessed with attracting the opposite sex, fitting in with a certain group, establishing their individuality, etc. Therefore, putting them in homeschooling takes away distractions so they can focus on their studies. Whereas elementary school kids can miss out on fundamental socializing key stones if they aren't allowed the chances to socialize with other children.

    Of course, what makes the biggest difference is whether or not the child wants to be homeschooled. If they would much prefer to be in school, then they would probably do better there. If the parent is forcing them to be at home, then the child obviously will not be highly motivated or appreciative. So really, a lot of it comes down to the children as individuals.
     
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    sriv

    sriv Community Member

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    A big reason for a lot of these established norms is whether or not the child should be trusted.

    :?:
     
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  4. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    It doesn't matter whether a child is trusted. They are their own person and making them do things they don't want to do is not going to profit anybody.
     
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    sriv

    sriv Community Member

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    It may profit them. In school, they have a small chance of reforming into a better person if they are a bad person. Through student assistance programs and teachers shedding light on certain subjects.
     
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  6. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    I do not doubt that there can be very beneficial programs in schools but that doesn't infer as to whether or not a child wants to be there and that is the key factor. A child will probably do better in homeschooling if that is where they want to be and they will probably do better in school if that is where they want to be.
     
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    sriv

    sriv Community Member

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    Are you saying we should spoil our children by giving them everything they want :eek: ? There has to be a disciplinarian force somewhere so they have the experience with it. The experience to tolerate rules at times and petition against them at others.
     
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  8. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    Not at all. It's just important to recognize that children are there own person. There is a big difference between giving children everything they want (spoiling) and respecting their choice (whether or not they desire to be homeschooled).

    Are you assuming that homeschool environments don't have discipline?

    I didn't have a chance to do anything in that regard until I was in college, and I was formally schooled.
     
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    sriv

    sriv Community Member

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    I suppose.

    There is more leniency in homeschooling environments, it is easier to speak one's mind, and therefore there is less aggression built up. Although I am a very timid person going to public school.

    Did you accept my point?
     
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  10. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    I think it probably greatly depends upon the parents and the subject. For example, I would have no problem asking a teacher in sex ed how to use a condom, but I might have some difficulty asking my parents that question.

    I was merely saying that I don't think homeschooling or formal schooling do a very good job in helping people in that regard.
     
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    sriv

    sriv Community Member

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    b*o*j*b or condom? make up your mind! :D jk :D

    I was talking about rules, but speaking your mind in general, I agree with you.

    Hm...maybe it's just me, but I guess the situation would be different depending on the parent for this one too.
    And the kid's type.
     
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  12. Satya

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    I would say when it comes to deciding to homeschool, the age of the child, the parents, the child's personality, and the child's willingness, are the factors that determine how a well a child will do in that setting. There would certainly be no universal rule of thumb.
     
  13. Kwistalline

    Kwistalline Permanent Fixture

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    ROTFL!!!!! . . . again!!
    This is a great topic! Thanks for bringing it up! Oh, wait, I suppose I sorta did, too. Hm. :D
    You both have some great points, but how-about lets hearing it from the horses mouth . . . obviously my parents homeschooled me. Who else would be such a big proponent? ;)

    First, if you think the homeschooling environment is in any way remotely close to being approximately near lenient? You failed to remember that the environment is the one in which the parent reigns supreme. How many parents out there are really that easy on their kids? Honestly, I see more single moms from the ghetto (no offense meant towards single moms or the ghetto, it's just a personal observation) who let their kids run the 'hood and don't discipline than I do homeschooling parents. A majority of homeschoolers are from Christian families-hence, a little on the strict side. I NEVER got away with anything.

    Second (and I'm going backwards because I'm tired and it works for me right now), if anything you are much closer to your parents. Again, from an observation. Most homeschooled kids have great relationships with their parents. Being homeschooled increases the likelihood of quality time. No homeschooled child can ever say "my parents don't care what I do". Their parents have their fingers in everything . . . well, like any parent would whose children were at home all the time.

    How many homeschoolers do you actually know? I wish you could see how many homeschool groups there are out there, their activities, their social life. It is not annihilated the instant they stop going to public school if their parents are astute enough to recognize social needs and engage their children in social activities. There are hundreds of groups of homeschoolers nationwide. They have dance, theater, band, gymnastics . . you name it. My BFF, an ENTJ, is by no means shy, witless, or un-socialized, and she was also homeschooled. Her sister writes for the local newspaper. For that matter, my own little sister, still in college, is managing editor of the school newspaper and president of the philosophy club. She was able to focus so keenly on her areas of interest that a college degree is merely a means for a career-she does not truly need to learn much of what she studies because of how well she studied while at home.

    Marcus Aurelius, one of the last Roman emperors, was "tutored". I wonder what that meant then. But if it's anywhere close to homeschooling, just think, if the family of a Roman emperor specifically desired that their son be personally and privately educated, why are we any less deserving?

    But you are correct, it depends on the parents. My circumstances are rare-I've never seen another homeschooled family in which the parents failed in their obligations. My mother became depressed quite early on (as an ESFP, to be cooped up inside with children was almost death to her) and gave up. My father, ISTP, was such a reserved and focused man that he never noticed. My sisters and I virtually educated ourselves, and you know what? We did fine. I'm a registered nurse-no small accomplishment. Not that I'm trying to brag, but I am trying to make a point.

    You were both right in that the character and nature of the child and the parent should be considered. First, is the parent up to the task? Do they truly understand what homeschooling means? Can they afford the curriculum (and yes, there are several companies who make up curriculum specifically for homeschooling parents-when I was in fourth grade, I finished my 500+ page mathbook in under 4 months. Showed it to my 15 year old cousin who said he didn't learn that until the sixth grade). Do they have a solid support system available for when they are simply too tired of their children (parental fatigue is certainly higher in these circumstances)? Do they have the qualifications to teach their children?

    On that last statement, I would simply like to state that the parents I know have either swapped classes with each other (a mom who is good at math but horrible at science switching with a mom or dad who is good at science but not math. that type of thing), done extensive research (some will even take college courses to supplement their knowledge), hired a tutor, or enrolled their child in the public school just for the one class they themselves are not qualified to teach. Again, my mother didn't recognize any of this, but I have been made the wiser for it after realizing that we were the exception, not the norm. I also have yet to meet a homeschooled child who hasn't had a 3.5-4.0 GPA or higher. Truly!

    I've also found that it is generally much easier for the homeschooled child to speak with people of who are not their own age. Some of my best friends are in their 60's. And I'm only 25. I have friends my age as well, but I am able to relate to them all.

    Besides, what exactly about high school prepares you for the real world? It's an artificial un-reality. When you graduate, will you always be surrounded by people who are your own age? For that matter, will you always be surrounded by your friends? How do public shower rooms and shared lockers exemplify reality? Teachers give assignments, grade them, and remind their students when assignments are due. I take issue with the teachers reminding students of when their homework is due. If they didn't, homework would never be done. But how does this prepare the child for college? For work-related projects? Aren't they encouraging a lack of interest in responsible motivation? Arent' they encouraging lazy dependance on the system? They more closely resemble an instutution than a world in which you are responsible for your words and actions, where you have the freedom to express yourself in whatever way you wish? I'm not disregarding the social structures necessary for order, I'm just saying they are more varied and complex than high school makes them out to be.

    Second, with regard to the constitution of the individuals involved, it's much harder to go into homeschooling after you've been in the public school than if you start out homeschooling. My little sister was homeschooled all the way. I got started in the fifth grade and was very bitter for awhile about being taken from all my friends. But that's a different story! And I'm all written out. I'm sure you've got more in store for me.

    Bring it on!
     
  14. Motor Jax

    Motor Jax randomness included
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    i love that first-person view, kwistalline
     
  15. OP
    sriv

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    Yes, but you did get to argue the rules a little bit. You had more of a voice. You could critique your parents.
    Christian and strict could be a bad thing too. That means that you are going to be fed a single perspective (sometimes narrow-mindedly) and there is little tolerance of free thinking. Right?

    That is a very good thing, but can also be a little bit of a bad thing. Separation from parents is considered one of the good things about school.

    None.
    Very interesting. Can you describe their social life in more detail? How, when, and where do they get to meet?

    They had the money delivered in a bowl on the backs of slaves. (made-up metaphor|you get my point)

    So freedom was the most important thing for you?

    Oh ok. Doing that would be common sense and I have no idea why I didn't think of it before.
    These results lead me to think that homeschoolers are generally smarter than people in public schools. Either that or they are cheating scum :x . jk...there are a few possibilities
    -lack of peer pressure and existence of parental pressure enables them to work harder
    -less distracted
    -homeschooled children are brought up by well off families so they have more motivation for their studies

    I do have some trouble communicating with people older than me even when they are very interested in forming a friendship. I usually just end up a pupil and listener, which I do not mind at all.

    Being around lots of people. Seeing them semi-daily. Going through relationships and break-ups. Having cliques. It puts peer pressure on them. It divides them by interest. It introduces them to new interests.
    Social stuctures outside are probably more complex, but it does put the basic in-group/out-group sociology concept into place.

    I would presume.

    You present the benefits of homeschooling, but you have not proposed anything :?: Do you wish to change the system in any way?
     
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  16. Kwistalline

    Kwistalline Permanent Fixture

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    None.
    Very interesting. Can you describe their social life in more detail? How, when, and where do they get to meet?

    How, when, & where? Oy. How-word of mouth. Families that go to churches with other families who homeschool. Online-google it. You’ll find almost unlimited resources and local homeschooling chapters. When? Whenever! The great thing is, even though she found it too late for me to appreciate, my mother did finally get with the program, and my sister has done everything from sports to art at any time of the day. Where? Churches, community centers, other peoples houses . . . it builds this unique sort of ecosystem. We’re this smallish sort of subculture, a community, a family.

    They had the money delivered in a bowl on the backs of slaves. (made-up metaphor|you get my point)

    Which means they recognized that intimate personal interaction as a means of promoting higher learning was “the best”. I.E.-homeschooling (I’m kidding! Not everyone can do this, I get that!). Although, the other great thing about a homeschooling community is that we literally have used curriculum sales. Saves BIG bucks. And we’ve been known to borrow, and most of the literature necessary is at the library for free! Although, just to spite my mother, I read the scarlet letter anyway. And if you've read Nathaniel hawthorne, you already know it was excessively dark, broody, and boring. I don't understand her fears sometimes.

    So freedom was the most important thing for you?

    Yes, it was. MBTI recognizes and appreciates our individuality, including how we learn. I learn best on my own, not in a social situation. My best grades were in classes where I had limited interaction with others. We are all unique. Take, again, the family of my bff. Her brother didn’t learn to read until after he was ten. Yes, I know what you’re thinking. It terrified me too! But when he was twelve, something clicked. He’s a 4.0 in college right now. If he hadn’t discovered books on his own, if they had been forced onto him before he was ready, I seriously doubt he would have that GPA. People don’t respond well when things are forced upon them, especially if they are exceptionally stubborn (which he was).

    Oh ok. Doing that would be common sense and I have no idea why I didn't think of it before.
    These results lead me to think that homeschoolers are generally smarter than people in public schools. Either that or they are cheating scum :x . jk...there are a few possibilities
    -lack of peer pressure and existence of parental pressure enables them to work harder
    -less distracted
    -homeschooled children are brought up by well off families so they have more motivation for their studies

    Well, except for the “well off” bit. My friend and I? Not rich! Not even close! You hand down curriculum like clothes. You learn to take on a second job (both our parents did). My father is a minister, always of smaller sized churches. They don’t get paid all that great! What motivated my studies was my own creative interests, boredom, and my father’s challenging expanse of knowledge (I'm trying to downplay the boredom bit, but I was actually quite bored there for awhile-how else could I have finished that mathbook in so little time?!).

    I do have some trouble communicating with people older than me even when they are very interested in forming a friendship. I usually just end up a pupil and listener, which I do not mind at all.

    Being around lots of people. Seeing them semi-daily. Going through relationships and break-ups. Having cliques. It puts peer pressure on them. It divides them by interest. It introduces them to new interests.
    Social stuctures outside are probably more complex, but it does put the basic in-group/out-group sociology concept into place.

    I would presume.

    You present the benefits of homeschooling, but you have not proposed anything :?: Do you wish to change the system in any way?[/quote:1mgv3iea]

    I myself have no wish to change the system. However, I wouldn’t mind being one of those who influenced those who might. Besides, it would be simple-minded of me to disregard those parents who have neither the means, patience, or intelligence to handle that kind of task. We’ll let the thinkers, people like you (it’s called a gift for a reason) use your unique abilities for just such a task. It’s what you were created for (humor me here!).

    and if this doesn't come out quite right when i post it, it's because I don't know how to separate everything correctly just yet. I'm not gifted at the computer stuff. And that's not from homeschooling, that's from being too lazy to learn!
     
  17. Kwistalline

    Kwistalline Permanent Fixture

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    Yeah, that didn't quite separate nicely enough for me. oy. I'm needing brackets or something somewhere. That's why I'm a nurse. I can ask people and assess the body. Computers? Nada. Can intuit a computer. Darn that intuition!
     
  18. OP
    sriv

    sriv Community Member

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    Well, the process of complaining is complicated and burns a lot of time that was expected to spend socializing or studying. Often it is shrugged off by the staff as irrelevant.

    I was just stating some commonalities I may find in homeschooled children.

    Your dad seems a lot like my mother in terms of acceptance. Most of my pressure comes from my dad, but he does not actively bug me. He subtly shows disappointment in me and works a way to my Fi. It really hurts me when I see him like that.

    A side comment: NFs seem to be more focused on finding someone who "values your uniqueness" over a teacher or instructor. This leads me to believe that NFs gravitate towards homeschooling because they are more interested in forming deep and intimate connections with their close ones.
    Me just being a pessimist: It will hurt more when they pass. :|

    I developed wisdom apart from my parents, but I have noticed a distinct lack of wisdom, common sense, and respect for others in my generation (I'm a teen).

    There are certain things in which it is beneficial to be a nonconformist and there are certain things in which it is detrimental to be a nonconformist. My half-S, half-N lead to a stand-off where my logic decides whether I conform or not. Usually, I just conform to avoid conflict (my 1w9 enneagram comes into play). The point of my description is that I think that going to school actually led to my individuality of thought.

    Graduation walks are for the psychological appeal of ascendency and newly obtained power. I don't hate traditions so I try to tolerate them.

    Interesting - I am surprised at the organization and freedom of the system.

    Lol, I actually went to MBTI to destroy my individuality and find people similar to me. I felt way too mature for my age and I knew there was a reason for that somewhere.
    Yes! I too have found that the less I focus on socializing, the better my grades become. Then again, I usually fall into a deep boredom and emptiness whenever that happens so I try to avoid it.
    I am guessing that just Ns don't respond well when things are forced upon them. Ss, like me, probably adapt to do whatever they can with whatever conditions they are given. I think that is the fundamental difference.


    Why did your family choose homeschooling? I assumed that you were well-to-do.

    Lol, classic lack of Te issues. I am so used to having strong opinions only after making a detailed plan on how to change and fix the system that I expect others to do the same :oops: . But I usually have to have my feeler friends voice my concerns for me :twisted: . I suppose it is what you Mahatmas were created for! ;)

    I just copy portions to notepad and then copy the whole thing back. Easiest for me. :p
     
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  19. Kwistalline

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    I sorta did that-but again, I haven't faithfully pursued the knowledge necessary to . . . whatever. It's not my gift, and that is so an excuse to be lazy!

    You asked why my parents wanted to homeschool. Differing reasons. My father had started pastoring at a small church with a few homeschooled families. I don't think they had ever thought of it before. And as we got to know the people, it was clear that they had some kind of advantage. I didn't understand what, since I was, like, ten. But they were intimidating, and impressive with regard to how much knowledge they retained.

    My last year I was in fourth grade. One of my older sisters caught a viral form of meningitis as a newborn. She's not dumb, but she does have a harder time catching up with others acedemically. To have a younger sister, B-average b/c I really didn't care, do better than her, was difficult. Actually, even now I find it difficult to do my best b/c I'm afraid it will hurt someone. I actually feel guilt when I do well. To hear someone praise me is the equivalent to murdering a baby. That's a bit extreme, but that's how deep my empathy for her went. I totally felt her pain, and the better I did the worse I felt, especially since my grades, even the bad ones, were always better than hers. Her self-esteem was underdeveloped and threatened by my very existence. But in spite of the teeniest bit of jealousy, we remained close.

    She was one instead of two years ahead of me. She was also in one of the special ed classes. The school had been revising curruculum and standardized testing, and if I remember correctly, she didn't pass with a high enough score to move onto the next grade. My parents believed the standardized tests were unfair and did not meet individual student needs that well. For that matter, they had already taken issue with the fact that the special ed material, upon review, was simple and unchallenging. It was hard enough that her same age group was a year ahead of her, it would have been even harder if we had been in the same class/grade. Because of our relationship, I have a feeling I would have compromised my learning for the sake of her self-esteem.

    After meeting with the school board with regard to tutoring and student assistence (they disliked my sister being labelled a "special needs" child-here we go again with labels!), they decided to homeschool. We had a family meeting. It wasn't a democracy. I had no choice over the matter. I remember my parents sitting us down, briefly discussing the situation in kid language, and telling us that we were both going to be removed from the public school and homeschooled. Naturally, since I was an E as a child, I was livid. Even now I think it was a bad idea. I think my mother could have handled just the one, but to homeschool two older children and a kindergartener? Eek. It's no wonder she couldn't handle the pressure. I used to hate homeschooling until I realized that our situation veared toward the extreme.

    That's about the jist of it. The financial strain they could have done without, but they weren't willing to risk their daughters' fragile ego, and looking back, at least for her sake, I'm glad they did it. She's worth the effort.
     
  20. Serket

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    Ok, my turn.
    I am generally against home schooling.

    -it is often promoted by conservative religious people. I understand their desire to protect their children from what they perceive as negative societal influences. However, I think it is detrimental to a child to not give the access to other ways of living and believing. The pursuit of knowledge is always admirable. I know my beliefs are stronger for having been questioned and challenged by others.

    -the world is a social environment. At some point it is necessary to join the world. Children who are home schooled are at a disadvantage for not having had to go through the same childhood social learning experiences as others.

    -Home-schooled children are limited to the knowledge and teaching ability of their parents, rather than having access to a variety of teachers and other students to learn from.

    -as knowledgeable and educated as my mother is, I can’t learn from her. All her attempts to teach me over the years have ended in arguments.

    -I have a job as a tutor largely for this reason. Many parents find themselves unable to teach with their children because their personalities clash. Often an outsider as more respected and listened to. I know my students often get really upset with their parents of the length of tutoring or the amount of homework I set them. None has ever gotten upset with me. I get hugs and presents and find myself consulted as a friend (or adopted sister) on many issues.


    So I see the benefit of one-on-one tuition, but I think it should be only one approach to education.
     

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