Has the field of psychology failed men?

[aeon]

So, basically, only men are flawed and NEVER the victim.

This is the follow-on effect of the widely adopted and implemented, and long discredited, but not yet removed, Duluth model.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[John K]

I think that it's not valid to take extreme views and amplify them as representative of an entire social or biological group. There are plenty of men who's attitudes have been toxic from a sex-bias perspective, and so with women and that has generated an antagonist response from folks of each sex who equally vehemently oppose such attitudes. None of these are representative of normal folks who mostly live out their lives in the muddled middle and aren't really interested in (in fact are actually turned off by) fringe extremism. Far from making up the 'illiterate' majority, these folks instinctively have the right of it - all forms of extremism can so easily degenerate into name-calling polarisation without hope of a solution - that's if they don't degenerate further into violence or political instability.

Forgive me, but almost all forms of extreme polarised viewpoints set my antibodies on alert - I can't help it. I understand the grievances that lead to such situations but my visceral instincts react by opposing not the case each side makes, but the impotent conflict that such polarisation almost inevitably generates.

Looking historically, all similar polarisations in the past have been solved in a sustainable way by gradual social change, not by dialectic conflict - where one side has in fact conquered the other in a revolutionary way, the results have usually been disastrous.

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

I think that it's not valid to take extreme views and amplify them as representative of an entire social or biological group. There are plenty of men who's attitudes have been toxic from a sex-bias perspective, and so with women and that has generated an antagonist response from folks of each sex who equally vehemently oppose such attitudes. None of these are representative of normal folks who mostly live out their lives in the muddled middle and aren't really interested in (in fact are actually turned off by) fringe extremism. Far from making up the 'illiterate' majority, these folks instinctively have the right of it - all forms of extremism can so easily degenerate into name-calling polarisation without hope of a solution - that's if they don't degenerate further into violence or political instability.

Forgive me, but almost all forms of extreme polarised viewpoints set my antibodies on alert - I can't help it. I understand the grievances that lead to such situations but my visceral instincts react by opposing not the case each side makes, but the impotent conflict that such polarisation almost inevitably generates.

Looking historically, all similar polarisations in the past have been solved in a sustainable way by gradual social change, not by dialectic conflict - where one side has in fact conquered the other in a revolutionary way, the results have usually been disastrous.

Another way of looking at this is society is in advanced stages of decay and with the death of traditional culture as well the social contract there is no going back at least not anytime soon as said problems have to reach the end of their life cycle out before there is any chance of returning to normal.

 

[John K]

Another way of looking at this is society is in advanced stages of decay and with the death of traditional culture as well the social contract there is no going back at least not anytime soon as said problems have to reach the end of their life cycle out before there is any chance of returning to normal.

My gut tells me another way of looking at it is that from the Renaissance until the mid-20th century our civilisation was going through a kind of childhood. Since then we have grown into a communal adolescence, with all the problems that brings - it's going to be bumpy for the next few hundred years. Things are made more complicated because different societies are transitioning at different rates and some are maybe a hundred years or so behind others, but the transition is like a contagion spreading quickly across the world. Maybe we'll get to adulthood, but it's full of risks - there's no going back, though, and it's futile to try moving against the flow of the river, so all we can do is travel on with it. My gut tells me that these next couple of hundred years will be a fascinating time to live, though maybe not pleasant - but the same was true of much of the last two hundred years for all but a privileged few. Will we make it through? I hope so, but it'll be touch and go at times. If we do, then my instinct also tells me there will be no stopping us beyond that, and in a hundred thousand years our descendants will be spreading out across the Galaxy - but maybe my gut is just a romantic fool .

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

My gut tells me another way of looking at it is that from the Renaissance until the mid-20th century our civilisation was going through a kind of childhood. Since then we have grown into a communal adolescence, with all the problems that brings - it's going to be bumpy for the next few hundred years. Things are made more complicated because different societies are transitioning at different rates and some are maybe a hundred years or so behind others, but the transition is like a contagion spreading quickly across the world. Maybe we'll get to adulthood, but it's full of risks - there's no going back, though, and it's futile to try moving against the flow of the river, so all we can do is travel on with it. My gut tells me that these next couple of hundred years will be a fascinating time to live, though maybe not pleasant - but the same was true of much of the last two hundred years for all but a privileged few. Will we make it through? I hope so, but it'll be touch and go at times. If we do, then my instinct also tells me there will be no stopping us beyond that, and in a hundred thousand years our descendants will be spreading out across the Galaxy - but maybe my gut is just a romantic fool .

I have to disagree and while some things have obviously gotten better in others we've taken a leap backwards. If anything we'll be remembered much the same as Rome and Babylon just for different reasons.

 

[Wyote]

Another way of looking at this is that things are the way they've always been but the internet is making everyone stupid while believing it's made them more well informed

 

[just me]

Only men? Explain to me why a woman in her mid-sixties all of a sudden doesn't want to touch or be touched by her husband of 30+ years. All of a sudden, shattered hopes and dreams for the two of you with "I just don't want to be touched". Then she picks up a cat and loves on him.

Only men are what? Never the victim?

Nothing wrong with being a romantic fool, using your words. The arts, churches, paintings, cathedrals, books... These are human instincts, not male or female. Everyone is different to some degree. I know firsthand that people can change almost overnight, too.

The farther some of us go on our own spiritual journey, the road can get more slippery. Even those going seemingly nowhere can notice your walk has changed. Our own loved ones can try to destroy us within, not trusting those whom they trusted all along. They listen to lies, and believe in them while betraying our own trust. Looking up, we keep going because we MUST be getting closer to be attacked so much. Some are called paranoid or some are labeled with schizophrenia. Truth is, these seem to be labels used in the psychology fields that can lead to further dissociation and further withdrawal. I've witnessed psychological warfare on those that hear more than others; who see what others cannot see. Some things the internet is revealing are things others may have been labeled with and are now being brought out in the open. Their findings are amiss. Now we can gather more information on why people years ago did not want a shrink.

"I am unwritten" by Natasha Bedingfield. Yes, I would let her help guide my shortcomings or problems.

Unwritten
Natasha Bedingfield
I am unwritten
Can't read my mind, I'm undefined
I'm just beginning
The pen's in my hand, ending unplanned

Staring at the blank page before you
Open up the dirty window
Let the sun illuminate the words that you cannot find
Reaching for something in the distance
So close you can almost taste it
Release your inhibitions

Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins
The rest is still unwritten, yeah
Oh, oh

I break tradition
Sometimes my tries, are outside the lines yeah, yeah
We've been conditioned to not make mistakes
But I can't live that way oh, oh

Staring at the blank page before you
Open up the dirty window
Let the sun illuminate the words that you cannot find
Reaching for something in the distance
So close you can almost taste it
Release your inhibitions

Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins

Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins
The rest is still unwritten

Staring at the blank page before you
Open up the dirty window
Let the sun illuminate the words that you cannot find
Reaching for something in the distance
So close you can almost taste it
Release your inhibitions

Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins

Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins
The rest is still unwritten

The rest is still unwritten

The rest is still unwritten
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Written by: Natasha Bedingfield, Danielle Brisebois, Wayne Rodriques
Album: Unwritten
Released: 2004
Lyrics provided by Musixmatch

We still have hope as long as there are those who tell us to "drench ourselves with words unspoken".

The internet is revealing details once only available to those who studied the big elephant in the room. Most of us didn't even know of such a thing. College students everywhere studying for new careers must remember we are the human race. While it seems natural to want to separate us into different types, subtypes, We that choose to walk the narrow path are not miscreants or fools: we are people. Look at how the world is acting nowadays. I shall not judge whether we are better off than thousands of years ago. Why? Would it matter to a large portion of the world that only cares about themselves?

 

[aeon]

Explain to me why a woman in her mid-sixties all of a sudden doesn't want to touch or be touched by her husband of 30+ years: not even a back rub where he can't reach with medical cream.

Just off the top of my head I can think of/imagine physical, emotional, psychological, hormonal, medical, relational, and other valid reasons why that might be so. I can do that because I have listened to so many women each tell their story.

In any event, enthusiastic mutual consent is the minimum standard, so beyond that, I donʼt know what to tell you.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[just me]

Thanks, aeon. I have watched many of these reasons escalate over time. Men can be victims. Fact is love stands in the way of the easiest decision. I feel it should, anyway.

Though I hate other races, and though I hate other religions; and though I label those to be enemies, shall I know love? Though I am beyond what my hatred can cause, and I embrace my hatred as a tool of war; shall I ever know forgiveness? Though I have chosen to make war with my enemies, shall I never know my true enemies? Though I seek vengeance, and though I only wish for escalation; shall I fight in the name of my god when he has not called upon me for such a thing?

Shall I say, my God is love, when my existence is clouded by hate? Shall I say, I seek to do my God's will; when I do not know what God would have me to do?

Shall I not fight for what is right; but in whose eyes is it right? Though I praise my god daily, shall I beat and rape my enemies? Shall I kidnap and murder innocent civilians, and not expect retaliation? Shall I say to those who have raped and murdered children and adults while laughing, I will help you to fight? Answer me this, What have we become? What has caused us, or allowed us, to be so greedy and hateful? Though I have 10,000 acres of land and live peacefully on it, shall I want another 10,000?

A man's enemies are the members of his own household. For in our hearts we want more, and in our minds we seek to be more than who we are. Shall we not seek to destroy our own selves? If poverty and hunger cometh unto us all, shall we say it was not our fault? One man takes a loaf of bread home to feed his family; another, takes a loaf of bread to his neighbors when they have none. Why should we give to our neighbor, we ask? Is the answer not in your mind and heart? We war against our own selves, making choices every day. Shall someone call us delusional? We listen for God's Word; should it not be in our hearts and our minds?

If we speak in the name of God, shall they tell us we are crazy? If good and evil wrestle within ourselves, shall they call us unstable? Shall the birds of prey fly down to us if we love them? Were we not communicating with the Osprey? Did we not know the Eagle sat on his distant perch, watching us and seeing the Osprey was not watching while he flew above us? Shall we not call the Eagle away from his chosen prey? He will listen, as I have seen it. They will fly down, as I have seen it. Why did I witness such things? Was it not from my heart to communicate with the Osprey? Did I not call to him and he came? Did not my heart protect the Osprey, and my arms wave the Eagle away to another place? Did he not go back to his perch a sound away? Such a proud Bald Eagle. Such a beautiful Osprey.

Where has the wrath in my heart gone? I see the flames from a small fire on a winter's night dancing in the light winds. I see deer browsing under the moon and stars. I am taken back to the waters I love so much. I am become peaceful. Shall I not wave my heart to call off hatred and trouble? Please do not call me from my perch overlooking the waters.

 

[aeon]

Men can be victims.

Anyone can be a victim...but only if one chooses to be. Yes, it requires oneʼs willful choice, and it requires oneʼs consent.

Many years ago, I tried it for a time. It was a kind of living hell, damaging beyond the supposed precipitating events.

Also, it was in no way growth-oriented...if anything, it was regressive.

And in retrospect, I looked both pathetic and a fool.

Later in life, I recognized that plenty of things happen which involve oneʼs person, but itʼs really quite rare that anything is about oneʼs person.

I mean, you feel things deeply, so the spotlight seems real, but as it turns out, you were just a NPC in someone elseʼs starring role production. Donʼt try to make it about yourself, as you likely werenʼt even listed in the Playbill.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Wyote]

We live in a world full of lonely stars.
If only they'd come back down to earth,
maybe we'd all get along better.

 

[John K]

I have to disagree and while some things have obviously gotten better in others we've taken a leap backwards. If anything we'll be remembered much the same as Rome and Babylon just for different reasons.

This seems right to me. Civilisations seem to me to be like the tide coming in and out, each one reaching a high point, then receding. Both Rome and Babylon took things further than their predecessors before falling away, and so have our modern civilisations. The Babylonians built on top of the culture the Sumerians created for instance and both of these were succeeded by the Parthian then the Iranian cultures which too were great ones. The same with Rome, building on top of Greek and Middle Eastern cultures. They all had their bad sides, as no doubt the people who were subject to their rule might feel - and that's certainly reflected strongly in the accounts given in the Bible taken from a Jewish perspective as a people conquered many times over. But they all took that leap backwards as you say, with Rome falling to the barbarians in the 5th century - though the Eastern Empire lasted a thousand years longer and the Islamic empires built their civilisations on top of the foundations the Roman and Byzantine cultures left behind.

I'm less pessimistic than you are, but it's maybe a matter of degree rather than disagree. There's a risk that we all go into a new dark age if we can't solve the problems we face, and then never come out of it. If that happens, our successors will all go back eventually to being hunter gatherers. There's even a chance that humans become extinct, though that seems unlikely to me because we occupy so many niches in the world. But I feel that there is as much, or more chance that we'll transition OK and come out of the challenges wiser, stronger and in greater control of ourselves and our world. Of course who our successors would be is moot - maybe China has a better chance than the West for example, because their civilisation has survived over many thousands of years in some form or other and they have had more practice in surfing the waves of successive tides in their cultural fortunes.

 

[aeon]

There's a risk that we all go into a new dark age if we can't solve the problems we face

Iʼm putting my money on this horse. This situation ends, but it doesnʼt end well.

Barring a novel infectious agent, I donʼt think human beings will go extinct.

But regress to a new dark ages? My best sense is weʼre already well on our way to a quite grim future. Collapse will have a “black day,” but the rot accumulates and accelerates for years before that day.

Grim, as in, a continuance of collective IQ drop, both cultural and CO2-mediated. The bill for metabolic disease will come due. Awareness that the economic system offers no reward will result in check-out, drop-out, which will erode social cohesion and become the effective end of democracy. Lives without meaning or hope will ensure endless fentanyl cordwood. Inequality will continue to widen. In western nations, there will be pockets of lawlessness, with raider gangs...this is already occurring.

Even if there was no vested interest in us remaining in the crab bucket, we collectively have an IQ of 100...which means half of everyone is even more challenged.

Collectively, we donʼt figure this out.

Hanging with reasonable people can help support the idea that a reasonable outcome will occur.

Lately, Iʼve met all manner of people who are reasonable to some degree, and I have heard the back stories. Each a tragedy, full stop.

That all said, thereʼs nothing to worry about. But know, the indignity and suffering will be stultifying.

As the Chinese saying goes “May you live in interesting times.”

edit: weʼre going to see some remarkable populist strongmen who will promise law and order, and that they will lead us out of chaos. They will be Chaos Monkeys, and will be as idols.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

This seems right to me. Civilisations seem to me to be like the tide coming in and out, each one reaching a high point, then receding. Both Rome and Babylon took things further than their predecessors before falling away, and so have our modern civilisations. The Babylonians built on top of the culture the Sumerians created for instance and both of these were succeeded by the Parthian then the Iranian cultures which too were great ones. The same with Rome, building on top of Greek and Middle Eastern cultures. They all had their bad sides, as no doubt the people who were subject to their rule might feel - and that's certainly reflected strongly in the accounts given in the Bible taken from a Jewish perspective as a people conquered many times over. But they all took that leap backwards as you say, with Rome falling to the barbarians in the 5th century - though the Eastern Empire lasted a thousand years longer and the Islamic empires built their civilisations on top of the foundations the Roman and Byzantine cultures left behind.

I'm less pessimistic than you are, but it's maybe a matter of degree rather than disagree. There's a risk that we all go into a new dark age if we can't solve the problems we face, and then never come out of it. If that happens, our successors will all go back eventually to being hunter gatherers. There's even a chance that humans become extinct, though that seems unlikely to me because we occupy so many niches in the world. But I feel that there is as much, or more chance that we'll transition OK and come out of the challenges wiser, stronger and in greater control of ourselves and our world. Of course who our successors would be is moot - maybe China has a better chance than the West for example, because their civilisation has survived over many thousands of years in some form or other and they have had more practice in surfing the waves of successive tides in their cultural fortunes.

 

[John K]

Spoiler: Three thousand years from now

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
Shelley

It's obvious isn't it that exponential growth cannot be maintained if it demands finite resources at the same rate? At best you get a logistic curve that levels off, but more likely you hit the buffers hard in modern, complex societies. That's because we have let them become too over-specialised, globally integrated and efficient. It's the agile, non-specialist creatures that survive a change in environment, not the very well adapted, specialised ones.
Curiously, people don't really talk very much about one of the biggest issues - demographic collapse. I wonder if the real crisis will pivot around this rather than all the big popular ones such as climate change and resource sourcing. If all our productive populations start shrinking rapidly, and then real estate prices collapse when all the older folks die off, there's maybe going to be massive deflation and an economic slump the like of which we've not seen. If we keep our heads, we can work our way through - crises can sharpen the wits even of idiots if there is time to respond and good leaders. Who knows if that's possible?

 

[aeon]

If all our productive populations start shrinking rapidly, and then real estate prices collapse when all the older folks die off, there's maybe going to be massive deflation and an economic slump the like of which we've not seen.

This is underway in Western nations all over, and especially China, but itʼs not yet rapid.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

Spoiler: Three thousand years from now

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”
Shelley

It's obvious isn't it that exponential growth cannot be maintained if it demands finite resources at the same rate? At best you get a logistic curve that levels off, but more likely you hit the buffers hard in modern, complex societies. That's because we have let them become too over-specialised, globally integrated and efficient. It's the agile, non-specialist creatures that survive a change in environment, not the very well adapted, specialised ones.
Curiously, people don't really talk very much about one of the biggest issues - demographic collapse. I wonder if the real crisis will pivot around this rather than all the big popular ones such as climate change and resource sourcing. If all our productive populations start shrinking rapidly, and then real estate prices collapse when all the older folks die off, there's maybe going to be massive deflation and an economic slump the like of which we've not seen. If we keep our heads, we can work our way through - crises can sharpen the wits even of idiots if there is time to respond and good leaders. Who knows if that's possible?

It really hasn't sunken in yet that around mid to late century provided nothing too ridiculous happens we'll be seeing the global population drop by up to a few hundred million every few years just from old age. We'll start seeing some of that in a decade or so with China then India in twenty or thirty years later while many smaller nations like Italy it will be somewhat less dramatic but ultimately the overall population will drop. What will hurt the young though will likely be ruinous tax rates while propping up failed states and overburdened social programs while getting little or nothing in return leading to an overall reduced quality life. As for the wealth horded by the old much of that will get sucked into the black hole of medical industrial complex and megacorps like Blackrock. I honestly do believe that this civilization will collapse before there is any chance of climate change of resource depletion can do it in even though modern economic systems and theory have more or less burnt the population out contributing greatly to demographic crises.

 

[Jexocuha]

Lowering the share of young people outside education or the labour force is one way that countries can counteract some of the headwinds from an ageing population. Young workers, who are typically less productive due to their limited experience and skills, often face challenges when entering the workforce. Additionally, they may be less likely to participate in the labour market, even after completing their education (ILO, 2022). In a scenario where the youth unemployment rate (ages 15-24) in all countries is lowered to match that of the rest of the working age population, GDP would be 1.6 per cent higher on average. For African countries GDP would be 2.7 per cent higher on average (Figure 9).

"Frontier Technology Issues: Harnessing the economic dividends from demographic change" July 2023 article, link: https://www.un.org/development/desa...e-economic-dividends-from-demographic-change/

Men, mental health and ending the ‘man up’ mentality

Basically, social roles and economic trends are changing and getting more daunting and more complex, not less. Humans, especially young human males, are having the hardest time right now keeping up, adapting, and making sense of a world devoid of central meta-narratives to fit into. And meta-narratives aren't "over with", rather, there are too many meta-narratives coming and going to follow... idk just my thoughts based on what I'm able to gather from UN and other "official" data sources.

 

[aeon]

Humans, especially young human males, are having the hardest time right now keeping up, adapting, and making sense of a world devoid of central meta-narratives to fit into.

It doesnʼt help by socializing them in a way which was moribund at best by 1971*.

*In the post-industrial West. Thereʼs more blood from the stone in the Global South, and a bit of the usual colonial rape will grease the wheels a little longer.

But watch out...find a new way, ʼcause BRICS is gonna get yaʼ! Theyʼll tell you what a man is, and a woman besides.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[John K]

"Frontier Technology Issues: Harnessing the economic dividends from demographic change" July 2023 article, link: https://www.un.org/development/desa...e-economic-dividends-from-demographic-change/

Men, mental health and ending the ‘man up’ mentality

Basically, social roles and economic trends are changing and getting more daunting and more complex, not less. Humans, especially young human males, are having the hardest time right now keeping up, adapting, and making sense of a world devoid of central meta-narratives to fit into. And meta-narratives aren't "over with", rather, there are too many meta-narratives coming and going to follow... idk just my thoughts based on what I'm able to gather from UN and other "official" data sources.

One of the problems with disaffected young men is that they can easily embrace violence. That’s manageable in stable societies, but in unstable ones it’s not so. It seems to me that the break point comes when a significant proportion of people decide that death is no worse than their lot in life and are prepared to take the risk of it in order to try and better their lot. All it takes then is for some demagogue to focus it and give it spurious legitimacy politically and morally and you have major war, backed not just by the young men, but by a large proportion of the whole society.

I don’t see any truly wise global political leaders at the moment who can collectively lead the world away from such a possibility- I hope to god they emerge if circumstances do deteriorate socially and economically.