"Gay" High Schools

[MrDoobie]

http://www.torontosun.com/2012/09/26/calls-for-first-all-gay-high-school-in-toronto

What do you guys think of having a high school tailored more to service the needs of the LGBTQ community? Someone on another forum I frequent posted this story, and it started a debate there, some calling the idea "segregationist" and comparing it to Jim Crow.

Now, as an education major, this isn't the first time I have come across the idea of LGBTQ schools. Last year I wrote for a local LGBTQ zine a piece about LGBTQ charter schools in America, and in my research these charter schools cause a lot of the same concerns.

I am in support of the creation of schools like this.

First of all, comparisons to Jim Crow and segregation are not apt. Attendance is optional, it's not like they're forcing any and all LGBTQ students to attend. Not only that, but the charter schools I researched were open to heterosexual students, they were merely more LGBTQ-friendly alternatives to public schools. While the article was vague about how this Toronto school would work, I imagine they would be the same way, mostly because I can't imagine how they would enforce a "gays-only" policy.

For a lot of the students going to these American charter schools, LGBTQ schools were their last hope. Many of them felt so threatened at their "normal" school that they felt they just couldn't go any more. With drop-out rates among LGBTQ youths alarmingly high, I see the creation of LGBTQ schools to be a helpful "third way out".

 

[Billy]

I dont care as long as it doesnt take public funds.

 

[MrDoobie]

I dont care as long as it doesnt take public funds.

Hrmmm, I would actually rather see my tax money go to funding "progressive" schools, such as LGBTQ ones, than public schools as they stand, which I believe are antiquated, ill-functioning, and demonstrate a contemptuous relationship between teachers, parents, and students that only grows and deepens over time. The education you get in public school is just inadequate. Now, nothing is to say that these charter schools or this Toronto school is that much better, but they attempt to give their students more of the LGBTQ perspective, socially and historically, which gives students a more diverse and broader understanding of their past and their present, which is something.

Not only that, but at least these schools have a mission that hopefully will lead them to take bullying more seriously. A lot of school's "zero tolerance policies" demonstrate the contempt that administrators have for the children and parents they serve that I talked about above, where spitting on the "faggot" every day is treated as an issue of "sticks and stones", but a kindergartener bringing his GI Joe to school is both immediate expulsion and a call to the police. And then the school administrators wave their hands and say "but you wanted a zero tolerance policy on violence! We just don't want to be sued or something."

 

[Billy]

Hrmmm, I would actually rather see my tax money go to funding "progressive" schools, such as LGBTQ ones, than public schools as they stand, which I believe are antiquated, ill-functioning, and demonstrate a contemptuous relationship between teachers, parents, and students that only grows and deepens over time. The education you get in public school is just inadequate. Now, nothing is to say that these charter schools or this Toronto school is that much better, but they attempt to give their students more of the LGBTQ perspective, socially and historically, which gives students a more diverse and broader understanding of their past and their present, which is something.

Not only that, but at least these schools have a mission that hopefully will lead them to take bullying more seriously. A lot of school's "zero tolerance policies" demonstrate the contempt that administrators have for the children and parents they serve that I talked about above, where spitting on the "faggot" every day is treated as an issue of "sticks and stones", but a kindergartener bringing his GI Joe to school is both immediate expulsion and a call to the police. And then the school administrators wave their hands and say "but you wanted a zero tolerance policy on violence! We just don't want to be sued or something."

How about all white schools? or hetero only schools?

 

[Faye]

I think the unintended consequences of sequestering gays into their own high school would outweigh the benefits of attempting to do so. And a lot of high schoolers don't even know they are gay right away, especially females. I think a much better approach would be to educate people about sexual orientation and LGBT issues in a way that is up to date. It might open them up as targets of discrimination outside of the school as well.

At my high school, my health teacher told the class that "being gay is a choice", and that was one of the first and only times that I ever argued with a teacher. That sort of thing is the problem.

 

[MrDoobie]

How about all white schools? or hetero only schools?

See, that's part of the segregation false equivocation. As I stated in my original post, these schools are not exclusionary. There was another school in Toronto dedicated to a more Africentric education, but it did not exclude non-black students. Rather, these schools are dedicated to a more diverse curriculum and setting.

In that sense, all white and hetero-only schools already exist. They're called schools.

I think the unintended consequences of sequestering gays into their own high school would outweigh the benefits of attempting to do so.

It is not sequestration as attendance is optional and it is open to any and all students that wish to learn there.

I think a much better approach would be to educate people about sexual orientation and LGBT issues in a way that is up to date.

And until, #1 - homosexuality stops being such a controversial issue that public school administrators wet themselves at the thought, and #2 - the public schools start integrating an effective and intelligent way of presenting LGBTQ-centric information, and #3 - it becomes pervasive enough that it affects the public consciousness and brings about real change, we leave LGBTQ students no options besides A) continuing to go to a school where they feel marginalized and threatened, or B) drop out.

I'm sorry, but I can't stand by that. Not with LGBTQ drop out rates as high as they are.

And a lot of high schoolers don't even know they are gay right away, especially females.

But what about the ones who do? What about teenagers who have had sex-reassignment therapy? Or are genderqueer? Do we just ignore them because they're just teenagers and we know more about their sexualities than they do?

It might open them up as targets of discrimination outside of the school as well.

They're already targets of discrimination in their current schools, at least the LGBTQ school might be a temporary, daily safe haven.

 

[Billy]

See, that's part of the segregation false equivocation. As I stated in my original post, these schools are not exclusionary. There was another school in Toronto dedicated to a more Africentric education, but it did not exclude non-black students. Rather, these schools are dedicated to a more diverse curriculum and setting.

In that sense, all white and hetero-only schools already exist. They're called schools.

This simply isnt true, any white kid who grew up in a predominatly black area would tell you that. Besides who said anything about exclusion? Why cant we have a white-centric school with a distinction for whites and heterosexuals in the title of the school as well? Sure gay and non whites kids can come, but they have to understand and accept officially that its a white hetero school. Why is 1 ok and the other not? until you can answer that question you are being hypocritical. Especially with the useage of public funding.

It is not sequestration as attendance is optional and it is open to any and all students that wish to learn there.

And yet in practice the straight kids wouldnt go because they know they would be a minority in a place that is designated for a very specific group, this isnt the case in a public school, sure because of sheer numbers it works that way in practice, but overall a public school is for everybody, a gay-centric school IS segregational. Simply because you are allowing in others doesnt mean it is not. It is. Using public funding for this, is like saying we need to spend public tax dollars on segregating by groups people cannot control, why discriminate against heterosexuals? Because thats what it is.

And until, #1 - homosexuality stops being such a controversial issue that public school administrators wet themselves at the thought, and #2 - the public schools start integrating an effective and intelligent way of presenting LGBTQ-centric information, and #3 - it becomes pervasive enough that it affects the public consciousness and brings about real change, we leave LGBTQ students no options besides A) continuing to go to a school where they feel marginalized and threatened, or B) drop out.

LGBTQ-cetric information? Like what? What is the LGBTQ version of Algebra, Chemistry, biology? I dont think schools should be teaching sexuality at all outside of basic human reproduction and the science of it... your sexuality is a private matter, should we have morality classes and bible classes too?

I'm sorry, but I can't stand by that. Not with LGBTQ drop out rates as high as they are.

Your social engineering will backfire as it always does. Besides there are bigger problems in the world to worry about than the drop out rates of gay students, which is a minority of a minority. We could be spending time and resources on better issues.

But what about the ones who do? What about teenagers who have had sex-reassignment therapy? Or are genderqueer? Do we just ignore them because they're just teenagers and we know more about their sexualities than they do?

Their issues are their own, why do they need special schools with public funding? Talk about superfluous. People arent in school to talk about who they fuck, theya re in school to learn basic educational skills. The focusing of all this social crap is exactly why American schools are the joke of the world, expecting special compensation for thier issues, when the POINT of school is to learn Mathmatics, Language, Science, and work skills. The rest of the world hasnt forgotten that, just us because of our insane politically correct system... we spend more time worrying about how everyone FEELS and less on what they are actually learning. As a consequence again, our schools and our students globally are a fucking joke. Americans by in large are some of the stupidest people I know. Its beyond pathetic how uneducated our people are. And I attritubte this to the PC reorganizing of our schools on 1 end, and religious indoctrination on the other.

They're already targets of discrimination in their current schools, at least the LGBTQ school might be a temporary, daily safe haven.

Everybody is a target in school. not just the gays. Try being a straight kid at the gay school, you think that person is going to have an easy time? Try being the white kid in an a mostly black school, you dont think that kids gonna have a tough time? Kids are assholes, period. We need to focus less on the personal values of everyone and make sure everyone knows school is for learning about facts and data thats going to prepare them for college and critical thinking, not making grandoise political stands and wasting tax dollars on pumping out social scientists who cant even get a fucking job because they majored in PC bullshit for 8 years.

 

[knight in battle]

Such schools may help them become more comfortable in themselves. Such a psychological state of self-acceptance - if indeed it provides for self-acceptance - may ironically allow them to integrate better with members of their own gender.

 

[Billy]

Such schools may help them become more comfortable in themselves. Such a psychological state of self-acceptance - if indeed it provides for self-acceptance - may ironically allow them to integrate better with members of their own gender.

At least until they get into the real world and its much harsher than the gay-topia they had in school and no one wants to hear about whos orifice they fuck, what I wonder will be required then? All gay jobs? All gay gated communities? All gay army platoons? People need to get the fuck over the whole not being accepted thing. LIFE does not guarentee you good feelings and acceptance, life is harsh and brutal. Insulating yourself away from that so you can have feel good times is just a way of making the rock bottom of reality that much harder when you inevitably crash into it.

 

[Sai]

At least until they get into the real world and its much harsher than the gay-topia they had in school and no one wants to hear about whos orifice they prefer to fuck, what I wonder will be required then? All gay jobs? All gay gated communities? All gay army platoons? People need to get the fuck over the whole not being accepted thing. LIFE does not guarentee you good feelings and acceptance, life is harsh and brutal. Insulating yourself away from that so you can have feel good times is just a way of making the rock bottom of reality that much harder when you inevitably crash into it.

Yep, harsh truth. I dont think the answer is having all gay schools. The answer is that people should learn to respect others in public schools. Truth is that homophobia will always exist, just as racism, sexism, religious hatred ect ect. Why? because humans suck. Get used to it and fight it back if you have the guts.

 

[knight in battle]

At least until they get into the real world and its much harsher than the gay-topia they had in school and no one wants to hear about whos orifice they fuck, what I wonder will be required then? All gay jobs? All gay gated communities? All gay army platoons? People need to get the fuck over the whole not being accepted thing. LIFE does not guarentee you good feelings and acceptance, life is harsh and brutal. Insulating yourself away from that so you can have feel good times is just a way of making the rock bottom of reality that much harder when you inevitably crash into it.

That's just the thing: if they accept themselves, there is a greater chance that others will feel comfortable accepting them, too, and they will behave in a manner that is more comfortable for others to accept them, even if they don't live the same way or want to have stereotypical activities that are attributed to gay people (and the like). For that reason, there may be greater integration with general society, not just with whatever gaytopia they may have constructed for themselves.

 

[Billy]

That's just the thing: if they accept themselves, there is a greater chance that others will feel comfortable accepting them, too, and they will behave in a manner that is more comfortable for others to accept them, even if they don't live the same way or want to have stereotypical activities that are attributed to gay people (and the like). For that reason, there may be greater integration with general society, not just with whatever gaytopia they may have constructed for themselves.

Yeah I dont see that happening. I dont think not accepting yourself is why homophobes dont accept them at all.

 

[MrDoobie]

This simply isnt true, any white kid who grew up in a predominatly black area would tell you that.

I have spoken to white kids who grew up in a predominately black area, as well as black kids who grew up in a predominately black area, and they both note a widely straight, white, Euro-centric agenda.

Why cant we have a white-centric school with a distinction for whites and heterosexuals in the title of the school as well? Sure gay and non whites kids can come, but they have to understand and accept officially that its a white hetero school. Why is 1 ok and the other not?

Like I said, those exist. They're called schools.

That's like asking why there isn't a "White History Month"

is like saying we need to spend public tax dollars on segregating by groups people cannot control

This is also a thing. Try googling racial criticisms of Philadelphia public schools. Or a good deal of big cities, really.

And it's not that people cannot control going to the school, as it is open to anyone who wishes to enroll. No one would be forced to attend or not attend, it will be open to everyone. And the gay charter schools actually often have a higher amount of straight students than homosexual students.

LGBTQ-cetric information? Like what? What is the LGBTQ version of Algebra, Chemistry, biology?

History? Current events? You never had a social studies or "Process of Democracy" class in high school? Those tend to have the Eurocentric bias that LGBTQ or Africentric schools are critical of.

And if sex ed class only teaches about vaginal penetration, it isn't just heterosexual bias, but phallocentric bias as well.

Your social engineering will backfire as it always does.

It is not social engineering, it is providing an optional alternative.

Besides there are bigger problems in the world to worry about than the drop out rates of gay students, which is a minority of a minority. We could be spending time and resources on better issues.

As a human being my mind is a simple thing that is incapable of considering and attempting to find solutions to a broad range of issues of varying scopes.

Quite a ridiculous red herring.

The focusing of all this social crap is exactly why American schools are the joke of the world, expecting special compensation for thier issues, when the POINT of school is to learn Mathmatics, Language, Science, and work skills.

No, American schools are a "joke" because they are based around an antiquated model that hasn't been changed significantly since the 1800's, they don't teach students critical thinking, and they show contempt for the mental capabilities of their students because the information they present is often fluff when compared to the rest of the advanced world's schooling, or, at worst, straight-up lies.

Also, the article is about a school in Toronto.

Also also, check this out... http://www.torontosun.com/comment/columnists/moira_macdonald/2010/09/24/15469271.html

At least until they get into the real world and its much harsher than the gay-topia they had in school

THIS JUST IN

HIGH SCHOOL IS PALE SHADOW OF REAL LIFE

 

[knight in battle]

Yeah I dont see that happening. I dont think not accepting yourself is why homophobes dont accept them at all.

Well, they are just one of the exceptions.

 

[Patrick Williams]

At least until they get into the real world and its much harsher than the gay-topia they had in school and no one wants to hear about whos orifice they fuck, what I wonder will be required then? All gay jobs? All gay gated communities? All gay army platoons? People need to get the fuck over the whole not being accepted thing. LIFE does not guarentee you good feelings and acceptance, life is harsh and brutal. Insulating yourself away from that so you can have feel good times is just a way of making the rock bottom of reality that much harder when you inevitably crash into it.

I agree with Billy and Sai on this because it just doesn't make sense. Where would you stop? All Atheist schools so they feel comfortable? All Christian schools so they feel comfortable (there are these and they are private and the parents pay tuition)? All Cuban? German? New Ager? Hippy? Drug users? Goodie two-shoes? Musicians? Artists? Rebels? Punks? Jocks? Shy kids? Extroverted kids?

How do we learn to tolerate and appreciate diversity?

Homophobia is wrong and it is bad but I do not think the answer is segregation. I do not have the answer and have not thought of it too deeply but my initial thought is this is not the right way to go.

My Uncle was gay (the one who died at 55) and I loved him as a person and as my Uncle and I know he did not choose to be gay (it is not a choice, IMO, but something a person is naturally born with - their orientation). Anyway, I am sympathetic to the plight of the gay community but do not think that is the answer.

Just my opinion, though.

 

[moonlightam]

hmmm, I havent come accross anything like that before, I must confess, but Im totally against any kind of segregation of kids in schools. If you want examples - have a look at UK. Its mostly religious segregation and "class" segregation here, but I can tell you for free that this is where extremism comes from. I think the schools should be as diverse as it gets , so the kids can get used to the existence of all races, colors, sexual orientations etc - otherwise the real life after school will give them quite a shock. At the end of the day, you dont go to school to flaunt your religious views, sexuality or your parents' monetary welfare, you go to school to learn. Bullying is another problem, its got a lot to do with our competitive nature, as far as this competitiveness exists, the bullying will continue, do you seriously think there might be zero bullying in these "safe" schools? Its a delusion. Kids will find a victim in any setting. I went to all white and all heterosexual school, bullying was alive and well there too, hell - I lived in an "all white" country where all gay men and any men who had hair longer than 2cm were beaten in the streets (even by police in some cases) for no reason other than their appearance, for 18 years of my life. There was one special segregated school for "special" kids, that was where all the kids with disabilities (mental as well as physical) went. I've never come across a different kid. I first saw a black person live when I was 18, when I became old enough to get out and see some world. I was in shock. I didnt even know how to communicate with all these different people, I was afraid. Then my best friend announced that he was gay. He was extremely upset when I couldnt find any words as a reaction to this confession, i was plain speechless (He is still my best friend btw) The reality hit me pretty hard. Theres still some even anecdotal news in my country, I think it was last month that I read an article about some lady from one block of flats who called the police and said that there was a robbery being committed in the flat opposite her as she could see two men in ski masks walking around the flat. The police came promptly only to find out that it was two nigerian students renting the flat. And I grew up in those "dark ages". People are always afraid of things they dont know. What I'm trying to say is that we need to start learning tolerance towards others from an early age, segregation isnt the answer to anything. As well as artificially cushioning the LBGTQ kids, it would take away the opportunity from others to get to know that they exist and are not THAT different from themselves. And for SE lessons only teaching vaginal penetration - I dont think they are teaching expressions of love, thats up to everyone individually, they are simply teaching the system of human reproduction. Sadly, vaginal penetration is the only way for this, no matter which camp you look at it from. Unless you go for artificial conception, but its taught in schools too, I believe. I personally never even had any SE lessons, had to learn stuff the hard way, now its even easier with the internet being so widely available, I just dont see how such schools would be of any benefit. So thats one segregated person's opinion

 

[knight in battle]

artificially cushioning the LBGTQ kids, it would take away the opportunity from others to get to know that they exist and are not THAT different from themselves.

I can see your point. The "getting to know... that they are not THAT different from themselves" seems to go both ways. I suppose you found this out when your friend "announced" an identity that was different from the heterosexual identity in him that you and others assumed.

 

[linger]

I think the unintended consequences of sequestering gays into their own high school would outweigh the benefits of attempting to do so. And a lot of high schoolers don't even know they are gay right away, especially females. I think a much better approach would be to educate people about sexual orientation and LGBT issues in a way that is up to date. It might open them up as targets of discrimination outside of the school as well.

At my high school, my health teacher told the class that "being gay is a choice", and that was one of the first and only times that I ever argued with a teacher. That sort of thing is the problem.

I'm down with Dragon on this one. As an educator, I agree that one of the largest problems is a lack of understanding which then perpetuates a hostile environment (for any type of diversity--sexuality/gender just being one dimension of it).

While I definitely think everyone deserves a space to feel comfortable and safe, I think that separating people allows ignorant assholes (yes, that was judgmental, and no, it doesn't apply to everyone) a perfect opportunity to live in their imaginary safe world that lacks diversity. I wouldn't ever put anyone in harm's way, but I always fear that taking people out of a diverse situation allows those who are "uncomfortable" (and I mean that with the quotes as an indication that it's a bullshit euphemism) a chance to never examine their own beliefs or confront the way those beliefs impact other human beings.

Then again, I'm one of those assholes who constantly challenge people to confront what they believe and why they believe it.

It's a good option, I guess, but I do worry about the unintended consequences for everyone else. (And the optimist in me sadly believes that all of these deeply rooted chasms between people can somehow be bridged and/or closed.)

(And sorry if you guys already addressed some of this--Dragon's comment just made me want to respond immediately.)

 

[CindyLou]

I think it's a fabulous idea for a private school. Start one. <---- edit though I doubt its that easy.

Ideally kids should get their acceptance and 'cushioning' from outside of a school but if there's enough people/parents out there that would put their kids in a school like this so Johnny isn't spit on by asshole kids... why not?

While I agree with Billy, when it comes to MY kids...nah. I would put them in the cushiest most accepting place I can afford until I thought I had taught the tools to face the shitty world with courage.

 

[this is only temporary]

when it comes to MY kids...nah. I would put them in the cushiest most accepting place I can afford until I thought I had taught the tools to face the shitty world with courage.

Yes, me too.

Verrrrrry generally speaking, being in an environment that has a lot of diversity helps people learn to accept and to not be threatened by said diversity. Therefore sequestering gay kids (who are kids and may not know they are gay) may not be the best way to go but finding and fostering a more diverse and inclusive environment is. (And yes, the latter is possible.)