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Firefly MBTI

Discussion in 'Art, Entertainment, and Media' started by Shai Gar, Dec 4, 2008.

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  1. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Malcolm "Mal" Reynolds, - ENTP
    Zoe Alleyne Washburne, -
    Hoban "Wash" Washburne, - INFP
    Inara Serra, - ENFJ
    Jayne Cobb, - ESTP
    Kaywinnit Lee "Kaylee" Frye, - ENFP
    Dr. Simon Tam, - INTJ
    River Tam, - INTP
    Derrial Book, -


    Sheppard Book and Zoe?

    Discuss. or i will feed you to the monkeys
     
  2. ZenCat

    ZenCat Waving Sage

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    Wish I had the ability to type people. I'm a big Firefly/Serenity fan, and a fan of Joss Whedon, who I think draws incredible characters and group dynamics.
     
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  3. Lurker

    Lurker Has nothing to destroy
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    In this situation iunno.

    I love Firefly and I stick by calling Mal ENTP and Jayne ESTP but my problem is characters are not real people and therefore not typable as they do not always follow a realistic pattern, they read a script.

    Meh, I tend to avoid typing characters that actors portray as they are part actor part acting, it's not real and no definitive conclusion can be reached, it's too subjective for me.

    Firefly still rocks :D Jayne FTW :love: oh wait :doh: I NEED TO STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM THEM ESPs! Sorry drunkish
     
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  4. ZenCat

    ZenCat Waving Sage

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    Well, I think it's easier to successfully type (all in fun) characters that are very well written, and who exist for a limited period of time (like the Firefly cast, or an excellent film or novel) or who exist for a longer period of time with a well-thought out character arc (which I think Joss Whedon does particularly well) than it is to type, say, characters who go on and on and on decade after decade (like some comic book characters or long running series, soaps, etc.) or who are interpreted differently by different directors/writers (as in movies with multiple remakes).

    Question about the typing of most of the crew (including Mal) as extroverts: Do you think extroverts would willingly go on protracted, isolated space voyages as a career, especially one that would involve the necessity of avoiding large groups and authority, and get into trouble virtually every time they come in contact with a group on the ground?

    Mal and Zoe seem strongly bonded to each other, and Mal to the rest of the crew (and their prior platoon) in a different way. Zoe is bonded to Wash, but seems aloof from the day to day intensity of the crew's emotions. Inara has chosen to leave the training houses and operate independently and at the highest level of selectivity.

    So I think I'd tend to think of Mal and Zoey, Inara and probably Shepherd Book as introverts (I suspect that Sheppard Book was an agent at some point.)

    I think Jayne and Kaylee are Extroverts, and possibly Wash.

    I think it would be most difficult to type River, since her brain was manipulated and we don't have significant footage of her pre-experimental stage character to draw conclusions.
     
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    #4 ZenCat, Dec 4, 2008
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2008
  5. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

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    *Woot!* A Firefly MBTI! :D

    I'm in partial agreement with your list, Shai, and of course this is all up for debate - fictional characters, and all that.

    My list:

    Malcolm "Mal" Reynolds, - ISFP*
    Zoe Alleyne Washburne, - INTJ or ISTJ**
    Hoban "Wash" Washburne, - ENFP
    Inara Serra, - ENFJ
    Jayne Cobb, - ESTP
    Kaywinnit Lee "Kaylee" Frye, - ENFP
    Dr. Simon Tam, - INTJ
    River Tam, - INTP
    Derrial Book, - INFJ***

    *Mal. I see him as more of a reactor than a big idea person. I'd reference "The Message" and "The Train Job" for this. He didn't think of the bigger picture in either of those incidents, and some of them caused him a whole heck of a lot of trouble later on. Mal seems more introverted to me, but I could see him as an extrovert too. He's not a stupid man - he's extremely smart - but I don't see him as a big picture guy. He gets it in his head to do something and he does it, and damn the consequences.

    **I've seen people type Zoe as an ISTJ and I see it, but I also see her as more of a bigger picture person. She actually questions Mal's decisions when she thinks he's off base, and she never goes into something blindly without a plan (unless she's following Mal). Take "War Stories" as an example. This was Zoe's finest hour, and her way of getting the Captain out of Niska's clutches was executed to the finest detail. She took careful inventory of what was expected. Zoe is a strategist, in my mind, and she could've been a Lieutennant in the Browncoat War. I think Joss mentioned something along those lines but I forgot why he said she wasn't. I think many things get to her, but she's learned how to deal with it.

    ***Shepherd Book. Now, he's an interesting one. He's definitely a quiet sort, but he's friendly - the smile could be a ruse, but I don't think so. I don't think he would've become a man of the cloth if he didn't feel some repentence for his past (oh, we all know he *had* to have been either an Operative or an Alliance officer!). He cares enough to offer solace and he cares about the lowliest criminal on Serenity (reference: See the first episode, "Serenity"). He cried when Inara offered absolution. He tried helping Dobson, despite the consequences. F, yes. I, because he's a private man with private, dark thoughts. N, because I think he's always considering more than what we see. He's calculating, as well as considerate in my mind. And J because he really does see things as right and wrong, although he does offer some leeway (the Bible is, after all, fuzzy on kneecaps). ;)

    That's my list, though. Feel free to debate!
     
  6. ZenCat

    ZenCat Waving Sage

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    arbygil: awesome insights and references!!
     
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  7. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Except wrong on a lot of points.
     
  8. ZenCat

    ZenCat Waving Sage

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    Elaborate?
     
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  9. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

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    Lol! That's ok, I'm willing to hear Shai's opinions on it. My beliefs aren't set in stone, and he might have other episodes backing up his opinions, too.
     
  10. ZenCat

    ZenCat Waving Sage

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    Oh no, I wasn't challenging him. I'm interested to hear why he disagrees. Honestly, I love any opportunity to discuss Firefly/Serenity. I love those characters.
     
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  11. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    When I get home and have access to my citations.
     
  12. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

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    Me, too! I just wish we'd had more time with them. :( I confess, I've written fanfiction about the characters, and I've read some really good fictional continuations of the series.

    The movie wasn't enough - we need more!
     
  13. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Arguments for ENTP

    ENTP Ego:
    Mal: "We're not gonna die. We can't die, Bendis. You know why? Because we are so...very...pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die."

    Mal: "It's a real burn, being right so often."

    Zoe: First rule of battle, little one. Don't ever let 'em know where you are.
    Mal: Whoo-hoo! I'm right here! I'm right here! You want some of me? Yeah, you do! Come on! Come on!
    Zoe: Of course, there are other schools of thought...

    ENTP Humour:
    Mal: "I don't believe there's a power in the 'verse that can stop Kaylee from being cheerful." (he smiles at her, never stopping working) "Sometimes you just wanna duct tape her mouth and dump her in the hold for a month."

    Mal: "And Kaylee, what the hell's goin' on in the engine room? Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?"

    Mal: How can you say that? How can you shame me in front of new people?
    Jayne: If I could make you prettier, I would.
    Mal: You're not the man I met a year ago.

    Inara: "So, explain to me again why Zoe wasn't in the dress?"
    Mal: "Tactics, woman! Needed her in the back. 'Sides, them soft cotton dresses feel kind of nice. There's a whole airflow."
    Inara: "And you would know that because...?"
    Mal: "You can't open the book of my life and jump in the middle. Like woman, I'm a mystery."

    ENTP Abrupt and Violent Response:
    Mal: "If anyone gets nosy, just...you know... shoot 'em. "
    Zoe: "Shoot 'em?"
    Mal: "Politely."

    ENTP Loyalty and Humility(shutupwehasit):
    Simon: You came for us.
    Mal: You're on my crew.
    Simon: Yeah, but you don't even like me. Why'd you come back?
    Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?

    ENTP Ability to see something where there's nothing:
    Mal: Ship like this, be with ya 'til the day you die.
    Zoe: Yes Sir. Because it's a deathtrap.
    Mal: That's not... you are very much lacking in imagination.
    Zoe: I imagine that's so, sir.


    Just pure awesome.
    Mal: "Are you offering me a trade?"
    Jayne: "A trade!? Hell, it's theft! This is the best damn gun made by man. It has extreme sentimental value. It's miles more worthy than what you got."
    Mal: "What I got? She has a name."
    Jayne: "So does this!" (caresses the gun lovingly) "I call it Vera."
    Mal: "Well, my days of taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle."


    In the episode Train Job he came up with a brilliant plan for a crime they'd never committed before, and kaylee called him a supergenius plan maker. He fits the type of an ENTP with nearly all of his creative planning, amoral illegal actions, and acerbic wit. There's no way he could be an ISFP, he's nothing like either my cousin or my sister in temperament.
     
  14. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Won't argue these:
    Inara Serra, - ENFJ
    Jayne Cobb, - ESTP
    Kaywinnit Lee "Kaylee" Frye, - ENFP
    Dr. Simon Tam, - INTJ
    River Tam, - INTP
    Derrial Book, - INFJ***

    Will argue these:
    Malcolm "Mal" Reynolds, - ISFP*
    Zoe Alleyne Washburne, - INTJ or ISTJ**

    I'm pretty damn certain that Mal is an ENTP, and I can't see ISFP at all. Remember how he wouldn't drop the cash in favour of the guy in the movie Serenity? He wasn't even going to consider it.

    Zoe, I'm going to argue against INTJ, you might be right with ISTJ
     
  15. ZenCat

    ZenCat Waving Sage

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    I'm helpless. I can't look at the the MBTI types and know how they relate. I'm only familiar with my own type, and intuiting the difference between E and I.

    So my meagre rebuttal:

    I say stuff like that all the time. Seriously.
     
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  16. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

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    *Nods* I could see some of that in Mal, too. He's definitely a P to Zoe's J, that's true 'nuff. And he very well could be a "T" and not an "F". I chose F because SPs tend to be the action folks. They love being in the middle of action and blowing stuff up like whoa.

    But if we break down the codes, I'm not sure if Mal is a Rational or not.

    This description sounded so much like Mal, it was silly - and that's why I think he's more SP than NT:

    ISFPs may be quite charming and ingratiating on first acquaintance, flowing with compliments which may (or may not) be deserved. On other occasions, the same individual may be aloof and detached. Some ISFP males are fiercely competitive, especially in sport or table games, and may have great difficulty losing. This competitive nature, also seen in other SP types, sometimes fosters 'lucky,' 'gut' feelings and a willingness to take risks.

    He was jealous of Atherton in "Shindig" and fiercely prideful/competitive. He kept stabbing him, even after he'd "won". And Mal is terrible at staying down in a fight! He *refuses* to lose.

    But then, this blurb of an ENTP could also fit Mal:

    ENTPs are basically optimists, but in spite of this (perhaps because of it?), they tend to become extremely petulant about small setbacks and inconveniences. (Major setbacks they tend to regard as challenges, and tackle with determination.) ENTPs have little patience with those they consider wrongheaded or unintelligent, and show little restraint in demonstrating this. However, they do tend to be extremely genial, if not charming, when not being harassed by life in general.

    Personally, I just see Mal as a stronger ISFP than an ENTP - but that doesn't make him any less of an engaging character! Mal is Mal, and he'll always be Mal. And I love that crazy man.

    Zoe's one that didn't, unfortunately, get much insight. We didn't see a lot of her doing and planning, and it's a shame. I think if we'd seen her more in the show she might have ended up as more INTJ and a planner. As it stands, she was mostly reacting to things Mal said (except for in "War Stories"). It's my personal wish that she was a Rational, but my wish doesn't necessarily make that true. I'd write her as a Rational, but I didn't see enough of her in the show.
     
  17. Quinlan

    Quinlan Right the First Time!

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    Hell yeah! :m184:

    I don't know enough about firefly to have an opinion but there should be no argument, ISFP and ENTP are sooo different.
     
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  18. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Hey! So do I, and my ENTJ mate, and my other ENTP mate as well.

    ISFPs may be quite charming and ingratiating on first acquaintance, flowing with compliments which may (or may not) be deserved. On other occasions, the same individual may be aloof and detached. Some ISFP males are fiercely competitive, especially in sport or table games, and may have great difficulty losing. This competitive nature, also seen in other SP types, sometimes fosters 'lucky,' 'gut' feelings and a willingness to take risks.

    Yes, okay, but how does this fit into Mal?

    Mal is not gentle, or compassionate. He doesn't seek harmony with people, he's openly belligerent with people. ENTP's are the most able of all types to maintain a one-up position with others. Hell I'm a very fierce competitor myself and refuse to ever back down unless I see it as getting boring.

    He was jealous of Atherton in "Shindig" and fiercely prideful/competitive. He kept stabbing him, even after he'd "won". And Mal is terrible at staying down in a fight! He *refuses* to lose.

    Yeah because he's in love with Inara, and refuses to admit it. Seems like something I would do.


    But then, this blurb of an ENTP could also fit Mal:

    ENTPs are basically optimists, but in spite of this (perhaps because of it?), they tend to become extremely petulant about small setbacks and inconveniences. (Major setbacks they tend to regard as challenges, and tackle with determination.) ENTPs have little patience with those they consider wrongheaded or unintelligent, and show little restraint in demonstrating this. However, they do tend to be extremely genial, if not charming, when not being harassed by life in general.

    Personally, I just see Mal as a stronger ISFP than an ENTP - but that doesn't make him any less of an engaging character! Mal is Mal, and he'll always be Mal. And I love that crazy man.

    I just don't see it at all. My basis for comparison being my sister who shares very little in common with him at all, or my ESFJ friend from years ago who used to be my best mate having nothing in common.

    Zoe's one that didn't, unfortunately, get much insight. We didn't see a lot of her doing and planning, and it's a shame. I think if we'd seen her more in the show she might have ended up as more INTJ and a planner. As it stands, she was mostly reacting to things Mal said (except for in "War Stories"). It's my personal wish that she was a Rational, but my wish doesn't necessarily make that true. I'd write her as a Rational, but I didn't see enough of her in the show.

    I suppose in The Message where it was laughed over that she got married, and they asked whether she now smiles or has feelings too, is an indication that she's an INTJ. But I was just basing it on the fact that she didn't see the potential of the firefly in Out of Gas. It could just be Ne verses Ni. I've got an INTJ mate who cannot see the potential in some things unless I point it out.
     
  19. ZenCat

    ZenCat Waving Sage

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    Actually, I think Mal routinely shows compassion, more often by his actions than his words. Toward the Tams by keeping them on, toward River especially when it was discovered what she was. Toward the whores they went to defend. Toward whatshisface ex army buddy who's body they ultimately returned, respectfully, to his family, despite the betrayal. For all the people he demanded get into the vault when the reavers were coming, including the guy he threw off the mule and then shot when the reavers got him. "That was a piece of Mercy, Sir". I don't think Mal's innate compassion and nobility are questionable, really. He shows mercy routinely.

    He does seek harmony with his own people, his crew. Crew = Family. If he can't achieve harmony, he demands cohesion, which may be the closest thing to harmony he can achieve. And yes, he's absolutely openly belligerent with people on occasion, but in almost every case he tries to give them a chance to do the right thing, and in many cases deals mercifully with them in the end, or spares their lives when he can.

    (Sorry I can't reference all of these right now, have to take my son to school in 20 mins, but it appears we all know most of the episodes anyway).
     
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  20. OP
    Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    he doesn't seek harmony, he refuses to see the weak attacked.
     
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