[INFJ] Extroverted Feeling: Cowardice or Courageous?

I dont know if what Im going to say helps much, but here it is.

From: http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

Fe relys a lot on what are the objective criterias for Feeling. These have a variaton on societies per societies, so a Fe user is a coward if the objective criterias says so (or corageous if it says so).

Sorry for mentioning "stupid anime", but there is a famous one with an INFJ that it is in a fictional Japan crowded with heros, which are figures of very consideration on that fictionary society. Rather than just having a high consideration for the some stuff like height, family respectability and stuff like that, the objective criteria is how heroic one is instead.

Fe doesnt work absolutely (other cognitive functions plays a role unless the person is a pure Fe type, which are very rare cases) and we cant say that someone has zero control over what the objective criteria is, the concious does have partially choices. And on INFJ, Ni comes first and plays a role into changing these criterias to fit Ni visions.

So my opinion, coward or courage depends pretty much on what objective criterias of the person are. And on Ni visions.

 

Well, some Fe-users like to have it both ways, and claim that Fe is both harmony-seeking and justice-seeking, but that doesn't make a lot of sense.

Somebody (I can't remember who) mentioned recently that August Landmesser is usually credited with being an Fi-user, and that his courage is a classic example of how that works. Though they went on to make some point about Fe iirc, I agree with the common view. Fi sets values and doesn't require social approval of these values. By contrast, Fe is constantly attempting to negotiate within systems of common values.

As somebody who has been frustrated first-hand with the rampant cowardice of Fe-users, I'm going to have to take that position for the purposes of this discussion. When you're trying to change something or fight some injustice, they're a pain in the fucking arse - constantly talking about 'playing the game' or being smug about knowing how to navigate the social rules of a situation despite also knowing that the situation is 'wrong' and ought to be changed. They can be weak and self-preserving, and when shit hits the fan in divisive situations I've only been able to rely on Fi-people. In terms of my own personal heuristics, Fi-users are like your vanguard when going into any kind of fight which requires courage - they're your fanatics, your immortals. Fe users will fight alongside you, too, but only when they see that the tide has turned - they're like your auxiliaries; low morale and easily broken, but just as good in winning situations.

Having said that, when Fe-users actually cultivate their Fi, they can be a powerful force for change (e.g. MLK)

 

I think it is a great exercise in that we mock we what don't understand. Courage and cowardice are on a specific basis not an approach to a generalized function. I can stand here in a false stance of definition and say Fe is iron in the table of elements and the ricochet of conversation would deviate from the point Maikl is trying to make. It is a very good question. Fi is based on presentation and that can be diluted in false premises...Fe is out there my friend...exposed. Which is more courageous? Great question Maikl...thank you.

 

Hmh I've been thinking about this topic too lately. I would like to throw these in (though English is not my native tongue and I might be misguided with the terms).

Fi ~ bravery (actually Te putting it out there)
Fe ~ courage (putting it out there)

I think Fi doesn't struggle as much with overcoming fear as Fe might. Fi doesn't need a cause, it activates itself.
Both can have moments of lacking bravery/courage, and usually it is the counter part who will point it out and not see their own.

 

thank you for the enCouragement

 

I'm of the opinion that Fe is unrelated to either cowardice or courage. Individuals are, not functions. The functions just manifest either courage or cowardice in different ways.

Fi users will tend to appear more courageous than Fe users when the courageous thing to do is to go against the group.

By contrast, Fe users will tend to appear more courageous than Fi users when the courageous thing to do is to go with the group.

It's a fallacy to imagine that the courageous thing to do is always to go against the group. It depends on the context.

 

Maikl, this is a thread about Fe that I kicked off some time ago - every so often it comes to life .
How do you use extraverted feeling? How do you experience it?

I think it's people, not functions, that may be courageous or cowardly and a preference for a particular type of judging function is orthogonal to it. In other words people can be brave or cowardly whatever their orientation. Mind you, it will manifest in different ways. There's courage that involves confrontation, and Te/Fi folks will be more ready to confront than Fe/Ti people. Does readiness to confront determine where we are on the coward / brave spectrum - well it may, but it can also determine where we are on the idiot / wise spectrum. Many a stupid and needless war has been started by the bravery of confrontation without thought of the consequences. Look at the utter disgusting contemporary messes in the Middle East and Libya for example. On the other hand, confronting Hitler was exactly the right thing to do - and Napoleon too I suspect. But there are other kinds of cowardice and bravery too - not necessarily so spectacular. The bravery of my father who took care of my mother for 7 years as she developed dementia until she was so ill he couldn't get her off the floor when she fell (he was 85 then) - this is Fe at its very bravest, and I know people without Fe who would have fled. Fe gives us the courage to love and endure in the depths of this kind of adversity. It isn't spectacular - this was a long slow drawn out torture of courage - but no less in its way than someone who sacrifices their career or their life in a confrontational ethical conflict.

I think it's horses for courses, and there are swings and roudabouts with all the functions. Each primary function will give us characteristic strenghts and weaknesses, and these will show up in the different ways we can be brave, cowardly, wise, foolish.

 

I think this is more like it.


Also, there's a problem here in that true courage (of the 'go against the group' type) is rare. In the example I have in mind in my own life, it was about 1 in 40. However, the most common types (ISTJ, ESTJ and ENFP) are all Fi-users, though ESTJs have it as their inferior.

 

If we want to play the MBTI theorising game for fun, we might say that the two types of 'courage' are mostly exhibited by types with tertiary feeling functions, because that means the opposing orientation feeling function is in the PoLR slot. So...


Fi Tertiary & Fe PoLR (IxTJ) - I feel that this is right and I don't care what others feel. = 'against the group' courage. ISTJs are more likely to defend convention in this role, INTJs more likely to press for novelty.

Fe Tertiary & Fi PoLR (ExTP) - the group feels that this is right, and I don't care what I feel =. 'with the group' courage.


I'm not sure if that passes any sniff tests, but there we are.

Spoiler: Tertiary Thinking Functions

Ti Tertiary and Te PoLR (IxFJ) - I think this is true/logical, and I don't care what works.

Te Tertiary and Ti PoLR (ExFP) - This works and I don't care if it's true/logical.

 

Fe is a harmonising function, when it is used for trying to bring together different perspectives. Fe is primarily a function able to see these different perspectives. Some try to reconsile them into one, others don't want to do anything at all. Yet others try to enforce a specific perspective that resonates with what they know or believe. The enneagram is a nice way of differentiating the alternating uses.

Motive has a way of bringing judgement into the mix. Remove motive and you'll lose judgement as well. I say it's neither courage nor cowardice, inherently. Only people can perform acts that may be judged thusly.

I have made a lot of posts on Fe/Ti-users and the contrast to Fi/Te. Might link/quote them some other time.

 

My reaction to that lol. But I think I can also be annoyingly contrary.

 

Lol

I did wonder... 'with the group courage' just sounds like 'can be easily peer-pressured into doing dumb shit'.

Funnily enough, though, I reckon that on battlefields, both most of the individually valorous and individually cowardly will be Fi-users. They have a bit of a 'fuck it' mentality in both directions.

 

Might be a "nah, I'll just go with the flow" thing..

 

Hm. I fail to see the difference between "going with the flow" and "fuck it"

Both can be described as my work ethic.

 

lol

Hmh, "fuck it" had it considered there for a moment while "go with the flow" is more economic with the energy spent. xD