explaining why J's can appear as P's and visa versa | INFJ Forum

explaining why J's can appear as P's and visa versa

Discussion in 'Psychology and MBTI' started by Morgain, Aug 2, 2010.

Share This Page

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 2 users.
More threads by Morgain
  1. Morgain

    Morgain defective wisdom
    Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Threads:
    114
    Messages:
    2,720
    Likes Received:
    466
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ again
    Enneagram:
    4w5
    A lot of people score 50% J versus P on there MBTI test and therefore question whether they are INFP or INFJ for instance

    I think that choosing between INFP and INFJ should be based more on which cognitive functions fits you better FiNeSiTe versus NiFeTiSe, because I'm starting to think that J'ness and P'ness is more complex than just deciding one of them

    lets take INFJ as an example

    what the J is saying is that this type preferce to express there main judging function (F) in an extraverted way: Fe. Therefore it seems to me that it is mainly Fe that makes this type appear Jish (and not so there other judging function Ti)

    what can be then the reason why INFJ's can appear P'sh?

    - INFJ's are introverts and therefore use Ni as there dominant function. Ni is a perceiving function and the fact that it is there dominant it makes them more P'sh than let say ENFJ's who use there judging function Fe as dominant

    - secondly I think the development of inferior functions can also have an influence on how J or P you are. When an INFJ has developed there Se function it would them therefore make them seem even more P'sh




    and therefore I think you shouldn't look at how J'sh or P'sh you are in general to figure out your type but find out in which circumstances you are.
    For example, I believe I'm INFP but I have always been very J'sh and therefore the MBTI test typed me as INFJ.
    If I was INFJ it would be my Fe function that causes my J'ness but I have no clue about the workings of Fe. When 'm J'sh it is when someone steps on my values (Fi) or when I'm in organizing mode (Te). And both of them are stress modes for me so in general I'm P'sh and therefore rather INFP than INFJ.

    Does this make sense?
    other thoughts?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  2. Poetic Justice

    Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2008
    Threads:
    70
    Messages:
    2,916
    Featured Threads:
    2
    Likes Received:
    563
    Trophy Points:
    657
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    5
    I never used to test as an INFP. It would usually be INFJ or INTJ. I have been developing my Se over the last couple of years and now I test as an INFP everytime.

    Are you saying this may be connected? How so?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. DefectiveCreative

    Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFP
    Enneagram:
    4w5 so/sx
    Ni is very future-orientated, and so tends to encourage forward-planning (a "J" trait). Se OTOH is all about experiencing things in the moment, the stronger your Se is the less likely you are to try to plan ahead, and so the more "P-ish" you'll appear to be.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. 88chaz88

    88chaz88 Back for a limited time only
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Threads:
    141
    Messages:
    4,872
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,223
    Trophy Points:
    766
    MBTI:
    ????
    Enneagram:
    9w1
    So if I'm a high P does this mean I'm underdeveloped?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  5. DefectiveCreative

    Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFP
    Enneagram:
    4w5 so/sx
    Eh, I'd be wary of translating it so directly, because it seems like it would be an oversimplification to me as it wouldn't take into account how well you were using your other functions, just how often. But it can, perhaps, be used a very rough guide to your developmental level.

    Better though, IMO, to think about it in terms of the cognitive functions themselves. For an ISTP that would of course mean looking at themselves and checking how well they use Ni and Fe, both of which encourage "J-ish" traits and directly balance their more preferred Ti and Se.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  6. Poetic Justice

    Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2008
    Threads:
    70
    Messages:
    2,916
    Featured Threads:
    2
    Likes Received:
    563
    Trophy Points:
    657
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    5
    I am very much a forward planner. I have my life for the next 8-10 years mapped out step by step.

    I carry my plans out too.

    I've been wondering about this as despite me testing as INFP almost exclusively now, VH insists I am an INFJ (even based on my function scores from when I've tested as INFP)

    The description of an INFJ also fits me better that INFP.

    One of the main points appears to be that INFP's have a strict moral code and woe betide anyone who disagrees with it. This isn't me at all. I am INCREDIBLY understanding of different points of view. I find it hard to be angry with anyone for pretty much any reason as I always understand why they think the way they do.

    Someone with a different moral code is interesting to me and I like to find out more about it.

    The only thing which gets me angry is someone taking advantage of someone who is unable to stick up for themselves or someone deliberately twisting the facts the get their own way.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  7. DefectiveCreative

    Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFP
    Enneagram:
    4w5 so/sx
    An INFP with a well-developed Te will tend to be a lot more organised than the regular kind, but any plans they make are still likely to have quite a lot of flexibility written into them. I can't imagine having the next ten years of my life mapped out like that, it would be so dull. :shocked:

    There's the difference maker. :lol:

    Well I'm a big fan of people using the decriptions to type themselves, so IMO that's really strong evidence that you are indeed an INFJ.

    For INFPs it depends on how well-developed their Ne is. If their Fi is calling all the shots then they can get in the mindset that they are "Right" and anyone who disagrees with them is "Wrong". When they learn to use their Ne better though that's when they start to see things from other people's perspectives, and so develop more tolerance and flexibility. They'll still tend to hold themselves to thier moral standards, but not necessarily other people.

    I think that's more of a general maturity thing than anything type specific. The reasons why you get angry at those things might give some clues as to type though.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    under skies likes this.
  8. Poetic Justice

    Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2008
    Threads:
    70
    Messages:
    2,916
    Featured Threads:
    2
    Likes Received:
    563
    Trophy Points:
    657
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    5
    This could be me

    I have a very high T and my plans are definately flexible. They are more of a general direction than a set in stone blueprint. I will follow the plan until something better appears then the plan is adjusted. 4 years ago my plan was to become a website designer as I have always been very creative. Whilst on this journey I was presented with an opportunity to change directions so I took it.

    This is a key ingredient to my future career plans.

    I like the saying " If you aim for the moon, even if you miss you'll be among the stars"

    I don't care if I miss as I feel I have already succeeded. Any further is just gravy

    I have a strict moral code which I hold myself to but I don't expect anyone else to so this also could be me
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  9. OP
    Morgain

    Morgain defective wisdom
    Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Threads:
    114
    Messages:
    2,720
    Likes Received:
    466
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ again
    Enneagram:
    4w5
    no it means you use your perceiving functions more often. Especially your extraverted perceiving functions what in your case would be Se and since you are an SP it makes a lot of sence that you have a high P.

    i think it can be connected since Se is an extraverted perceiving function and incourage you to live in the moment. I always scare INFP or INFJ on those tests depending on what I answer on the J/P questions. I could be both depending on the mode I am in when taking the test. Therefore I think it is better to look at the cognitive functions of INFJ and INFP and see which ones you feel the most resonance with.

    if INFJ fits you better than you probably are INFJ. Like DC said INFP's can be planners too. I am a big planner since my father always incouraged me using Te. But I would never plan out my life for the next couple of years in detail and carry it out as well, NEVER!!!! :D
    For the simple reason that everything is changeable. My preferences can change, circumstances can change, you never know who you will be in 3 years or what opportunities you get. Therefore I don't put to much energy in making a plan (even though I could make it) because I would have to adapt it over and over again. I woudn't cary through with an expiered plan



    what defective creative said. INFP's can also be very understanding and interested in other peoples opinions. Mainly because there morals are fluid. They are not as fixed as you would think, always open for change if new information/evidence is given. It is the same with making plans, nothing is set in stone and that makes them very P'sh

    The question is how to explain your situation, would you say that you are using Fe or Ne when concidering other peoples opinions?

    I would say this is an example of a moral code. Why would you be angry for this one while you stated before that you hardly get angry because you understand why they do it. This person clearly has an other moral code than you (or no code :D) and it is clear why they do this ... so why do you get angry over this?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  10. Poetic Justice

    Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2008
    Threads:
    70
    Messages:
    2,916
    Featured Threads:
    2
    Likes Received:
    563
    Trophy Points:
    657
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    5
    Also me

    I don't know. How do I tell?

    I know why they do it. because they think they can take advantage of an easy target and feel they can use a persons insecurities or lack of resources against them. It's cowardice and maliciousness. A combination which really gets me wound up.

    They want the appearance of being powerful but don't want to put themselves ar risk so choose people they percieve as weak to massage their huge but fragile egos.

    Narcissists in particular are prime examples of the type of person which makes me blow up. Not if they attack me though. I can handle it. I remain patronisingly polite. It's if they attack someone who can't handle it. Bullies and me don't get along.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #10 Poetic Justice, Aug 2, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2010
  11. OP
    Morgain

    Morgain defective wisdom
    Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Threads:
    114
    Messages:
    2,720
    Likes Received:
    466
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ again
    Enneagram:
    4w5
    well I feel the same about these kind of people, they are discusting. I always thought this was ment by "INFPs become angry when someone steps on there moral codes". Am I wrong and if i'm wrong what else is ment by it?

    In the past years I have been learning myself not to blow up every time someone acts in a (in my view) disgusting way. I try to take a break and try to find out why they act that way. Al bastards where born as innocent childeren so there must be a reason why they changed onto bastards :)
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  12. Poetic Justice

    Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2008
    Threads:
    70
    Messages:
    2,916
    Featured Threads:
    2
    Likes Received:
    563
    Trophy Points:
    657
    MBTI:
    INTP
    Enneagram:
    5
    I think INFP's supposedly have a much more far reaching moral code than just one or two points which they consider untouchable i.e. a code for most situations.

    Maybe????

    Exactly.

    I don't even hate narcissists (most of the time) I just want them to stop doing what they are doing. I could quite happily be friends with a narcissist if they cleaned their act up. I wouldn't hold their past issues against them if they simply stopped doing it.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  13. OP
    Morgain

    Morgain defective wisdom
    Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Threads:
    114
    Messages:
    2,720
    Likes Received:
    466
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ again
    Enneagram:
    4w5
    if they cleaned there act up they wouldn't be narcissists :)
    so you do enforce your morals onto other people. Narcism is not a good way to live so you would only be friends with them if they take over your moral and stop being narcistic
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  14. DefectiveCreative

    Donor

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2008
    Threads:
    1
    Messages:
    536
    Likes Received:
    82
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFP
    Enneagram:
    4w5 so/sx
    Yeah, pretty much, though in my experience it sort of works the other way around. Because INFPs are Fi dominant, whenever we encounter something new we feel like we have to check in with our Fi to make sure that it fits with our value system (and if we change our value system, we then have to re-evaluate what we've already encountered, to see if all those things still fit).
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. OP
    Morgain

    Morgain defective wisdom
    Donor

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2009
    Threads:
    114
    Messages:
    2,720
    Likes Received:
    466
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ again
    Enneagram:
    4w5



    so what do you guys think. Is our J/P'ness based on which cognitive functions we mostly use rather than being a personality tread on its own??
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  16. IndigoSensor

    IndigoSensor Product Obtained
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2008
    Threads:
    762
    Messages:
    14,154
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    1w2 sx/so/sp
    Yes.

    J and P does come from our cognitive functions, and it largely emerges from how much gets filtered into the extroverted functions. Ni Ti Fi and Si themselves don't impact the J/P axis that much, however how much they get filtered does. Everything I think and do eventually gets filtered through my Fe in some way, which is why my J is so damn high, in addition to me using Fe first then linking it to the other functions. My Se usually gets kicked in the dirt so I ignore most of it.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  17. Gaze

    Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Threads:
    2,391
    Messages:
    28,225
    Featured Threads:
    99
    Likes Received:
    22,286
    Trophy Points:
    1,906
    MBTI:
    INFPishy
    possibly. I think environment has so much more to do with this. If you're raised in a very J atmosphere, you're likely to take on those characteristics and use them more often in your day to day. E.g. If you're raised by P parents or family, you're probably more likely to develop your P over your J, unless you're cognitively more J than P.

    It's always that pesky little nature v. nurture argument isn't it . . .
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #17 Gaze, Aug 2, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2010
  18. IndigoSensor

    IndigoSensor Product Obtained
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2008
    Threads:
    762
    Messages:
    14,154
    Likes Received:
    1,298
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    1w2 sx/so/sp
    Cognitive functions are like 90% nature, and I will not be convinced of this otherwise :D
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    Gaze likes this.
  19. Gaze

    Donor

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2009
    Threads:
    2,391
    Messages:
    28,225
    Featured Threads:
    99
    Likes Received:
    22,286
    Trophy Points:
    1,906
    MBTI:
    INFPishy
    :m052:
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  20. acd

    acd Well-known member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2009
    Threads:
    143
    Messages:
    15,662
    Featured Threads:
    11
    Likes Received:
    36,254
    Trophy Points:
    1,387
    Location:
    fantasy world
    MBTI:
    infp
    Enneagram:
    9w8 sp/sx
    I think a well developed Te coupled with Fi looks like Fe, which seems INFJish for an INFP.
    Rebuttal.
     

Share This Page