Evolution vs. Creationism

[TheLastMohican]

According to much theology, God created life to worship and love him. So all of creation must see serving him as the final purpose.

That doesn't follow. Only some of creation — possibly a minute fraction — would have to serve and love God to make it worthwhile for Him, since according to that theology, God's motive was to be loved by other sentient beings. (Also note that one can serve and love God without viewing it as the final purpose.)
Furthermore, God would have created beings with free will, since creating a being to love you and not giving it a choice about whether to do so is really just loving yourself. Clearly, according to this theology, God's final purpose is to be loved and respected by others, and in those systems that include heaven, union with God is the final purpose of the loving and serving beings.

 

[Satya]

That doesn't follow. Only some of creation

 

[TheLastMohican]

Theologically speaking though, worshiping and loving God is generally the final purpose.

For some. That does not mean "God is the final purpose." It instead means that certain actions towards and a certain relationship with God are the final purpose for both God and the humans who believe in Him. As I said before, if God is the final purpose, then he would not have bothered creating anything else.

If you are going by the Abrahamic conception of creation, then God didn't create beings with freewill, he created perfect beings in his own image who chose freewill over obedience to him. As is evident by the whole Garden of Eden and eating the forbidden fruit story.

Adam and Eve could not have chosen free will, because that ability to choose is free will. They must have had it from the beginning. Their choice was to disobey, not to attain the ability to choose whether to disobey.

Whatever God's final purpose is has little to do with whether or not God is the final purpose to the universe.

Are you allowing for a distinction between spirits and matter?

 

[Satya]

For some. That does not mean "God is the final purpose." It instead means that certain actions towards and a certain relationship with God are the final purpose for both God and the humans who believe in Him. As I said before, if God is the final purpose, then he would not have bothered creating anything else.

Alpha and Omega. God may be above purpose.

Adam and Eve could not have chosen free will, because that ability to choose is free will. They must have had it from the beginning. Their choice was to disobey, not to attain the ability to choose whether to disobey.

Since God created them to be perfect, he had to give them ability to have free will, but he never gave them the option when it came to the tree of knowledge. Free will is not truly free will until you use it as Adam and Eve did when it came to the forbidden fruit.

Are you allowing for a distinction between spirits and matter?

Huh?

 

[TheLastMohican]

Alpha and Omega. God may be above purpose.

What on earth does it mean to be "above purpose"?

Since God created them to be perfect, he had to give them ability to have free will, but he never gave them the option when it came to the tree of knowledge. Free will is not truly free will until you use it as Adam and Eve did when it came to the forbidden fruit.

He told them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, but he didn't bother to stop them from disobeying. They did have free will, or they wouldn't have been able to come up with original ideas like disobedience in the first place. (Granted, the serpent tempted Eve, but she still made a choice to do something other than what God had commanded, and you have to remember that she was for some reason in close proximity to the tree by the time the serpent got to speak to her.)

Huh?

I'll rephrase: Are you saying that souls and matter must have the same purpose, or even that matter must have any ultimate purpose?

 

[Satya]

What on earth does it mean to be "above purpose"?

If you are both the beginning and the end, then you already know your decision before you even make it.

He told them not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, but he didn't bother to stop them from disobeying. They did have free will, or they wouldn't have been able to come up with original ideas like disobedience in the first place. (Granted, the serpent tempted Eve, but she still made a choice to do something other than what God had commanded, and you have to remember that she was for some reason in close proximity to the tree by the time the serpent got to speak to her.)

The serpent made Eve aware that she had the ability of free will. It was Eve who ultimately made the choice to use it.

I'll rephrase: Are you saying that souls and matter must have the same purpose, or even that matter must have any utlimate purpose?

I don't distinguish between matter and spirit.

 

[TheLastMohican]

If you are both the beginning and the end, then you already know your decision before you even make it.

But eventually you act on that decision, and it's for a reason.

The serpent made Eve aware that she had the ability of free will. It was Eve who ultimately made the choice to use it.

She made the choice to disobey, thereby proving that she had free will. The serpent never mentioned that concept, only that eating the fruit would give Eve knowledge of good and evil. Prior to hearing from the serpent, she had refrained from eating the fruit because she believed that it would kill her, not because she was incapable of making a decision.

I don't distinguish between matter and spirit.

Would you say that a pencil eraser has a purpose relevant to God? If God created the universe, wouldn't he have created for its final purpose? What exactly does it mean for God to be the final purpose, anyway?

 

[Lucifer]

Would you say that a pencil eraser has a purpose relevant to God? If God created the universe, wouldn't he have created for its final purpose? What exactly does it mean for God to be the final purpose, anyway?

ISEENOTHINGTOBACKTHATUP!


Why is it that God needs a purpose? Do you think heshe's a J?

 

[TheLastMohican]

Why is it that God needs a purpose? Do you think heshe's a J?

Hoo boy, it would be a scary world if God were a P. :fear:

 

[Duty]

Hoo boy, it would be a scary world if God were a P. :fear:

Well, he doesn't stick to his commitments, I guess he lost interest in people and that's why he never comes around anymore...

I'd say God is most definitely a P.

 

[anahata]

Final purpose?

And all this stuff about eve, well think of it from her point of view. Paradise on a plate and you're told not to do something, she had absolutely no experience of pain so why would she fear something? She just wanted to know shit.

 

[TheLastMohican]

Well, he doesn't stick to his commitments, I guess he lost interest in people and that's why he never comes around anymore...

I'd say God is most definitely a P.

What commitments?

Final purpose?

Ask Satya. He started it. :tongue:

And all this stuff about eve, well think of it from her point of view. Paradise on a plate and you're told not to do something, she had absolutely no experience of pain so why would she fear something? She just wanted to know shit.

I know, I could write an essay on why Eve's "sin" was actually a very admirable thing given her situation, and something from which people today could take a cue. But that's not what Satya and I were arguing about. We were debating whether God created her with free will installed, or if she had to create it herself.

 

[Satya]

I know, I could write an essay on why Eve's "sin" was actually a very admirable thing given her situation, and something from which people today could take a cue. But that's not what Satya and I were arguing about. We were debating whether God created her with free will installed, or if she had to create it herself.

And I stand by the position, that until you act on it, it isn't free will.

 

[TheLastMohican]

And I stand by the position, that until you act on it, it isn't free will.

Right, just like you don't have genitals until you've had sex.

 

[Satya]

Right, just like you don't have genitals until you've had sex.

You know that is an illogical comparison to make. What do genitals have to do with the ability to utilize free will?

 

[TheLastMohican]

What do genitals have to do with the ability to utilize free will?

Just as you need genitals to have sex (and can therefore be assumed to have possessed them before having sex), you need free will in order to utilize free will. In neither case can you acquire the prerequisite by performing the action.

 

[just me]

Well, he doesn't stick to his commitments, I guess he lost interest in people and that's why he never comes around anymore...

I'd say God is most definitely a P.

Surely you do not expect someone you do not believe in and do not believe exists to have lost interest? Just kidding with ya.

 

[Milon]

Duty, I'd love to continue discussing our earlier thread, but I'm waiting for a specific example of something you'd consider proof of God's existence. If you don't supply one, I'll take the hint that you're no longer interested.

 

[anahata]

Ask Satya. He started it. :tongue:

Well... Satya? *pulls up a chair*

I know, I could write an essay on why Eve's "sin" was actually a very admirable thing given her situation, and something from which people today could take a cue. But that's not what Satya and I were arguing about. We were debating whether God created her with free will installed, or if she had to create it herself.

Ah, yes.. sorry lost the point getting carried away defending her :tongue:

I can't get my head around free will, we're all installed with senses to perceive reality but they're all easily manipulated.
Do we control our thoughts? I certainly like to think so but I can't stop them.. a thought comes in and I follow a trail of thought, who knows if that's my conscious effort or not but I'm trying to learn to meditate and shutting the bloody thing up is proving near impossible!

 

[Duty]

Duty, I'd love to continue discussing our earlier thread, but I'm waiting for a specific example of something you'd consider proof of God's existence. If you don't supply one, I'll take the hint that you're no longer interested.

It's hard to give an example for an entity that is itself difficult to define. Still, I could go through different common definitions and say what I'd expect for that God to do to prove he is what is said in that definition.