Ego death through thought | INFJ Forum

Ego death through thought

Kmal

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Jan 21, 2010
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While undeserving of anything resembling comfort from the wicked things I've done, I receive comfort in being undeserving. I realize I dont deserve a good life; I dont deserve a good body; I dont deserve security, yet I receive all when I dont deserve them. Why do we deserve things? If I let go of my wants, I am free, yet I dont deserve freedom and still get it. What good does holding on to wanting good do? When let go, what results becomes good, not the previous good.

Now I realize I dont deserve a good life or to be treated good, so when I am treated good, I am surprised and happy! A mere human can bless me with infinite bliss. If I empty my self of wants and needs, what fills it? If I empty my expectations, all that follows bad is neutral, and all that follows good is great.
 
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Good point! Ekhart Tolle seems to have had a pretty liberating experience through thinking

From another perspective.....our unconscious energies bubble up when we are not thinking

Meditation is about non thinking....making ourselves a still lake so that we can get in touch with our unconscious mind

But i guess these are all just different paths up the same mountain
 
From another perspective.....our unconscious energies bubble up when we are not thinking

Meditation is about non thinking....making ourselves a still lake so that we can get in touch with our unconscious mind
This non thinking is the emptiness one feels that is filled up with nothing yet everything. If one is already filled with wants, one cannot receive satisfaction because he is too busy wanting it. The emptiness is not really emptiness, but the consciousness that is felt instead of the mind.
 
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This non thinking is the emptiness one feels that is filled up with nothing yet everything. If one is already filled with wants, one cannot receive satisfaction because he is to busy wanting it. The emptiness is not really emptiness, but the universe, or consciousness that is the origin of everything.

the hand that grasps doesn't attain enlightenment....

you're saying let go?

Let go of it all....and in letting go you will receive
 
the hand that grasps doesn't attain enlightenment....

you're saying let go?

Let go of it all....and in letting go you will receive
(I edited) some part of me desperately wants enlightenment, but the want is so distracting that I wouldn't see it if it were right in front of my face. isn't the light under every rock and stone?
 
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(I edited) some part of me desperately wants enlightenment, but the want is so distracting that I wouldn't see it if it were right in front of my face. isn't the light under every rock and stone?

Why do you desperately want enlightenment?

The emptiness you are talking about is realized when one finally allows them self to ...ummm...disintegrate.... into the All....the Universe....everything and everybody.

I used to have trouble with envisioning this "emptiness" concept in the Buddhist teachings. I was quoting the Heart sutra to Stormy1 yesterday. "Form is emptiness....Emptiness is Form".....and it would drive me crazy with trying to figure out why that sutra was soooo important. Finally - one day I realized what they've been trying to say to a Western Mind - is the body - the form is made up of the stuff of the universe - which is as I understand it now - particles and waves - Energy.....which "looks like" emptiness. Coincidentally - science used to say the same thing in a way when they claimed there was a lot of "empty space" between atoms and in the universe out there back when I was attending college. The Void. We used to speculate all the time in physics and chemistry classes about the Void and what it must be like...etc.

Reciting the sutra brings me peace when I'm caught up in fear. It's just remembering to do it that's the key....[rolls eyes in self deprecating manner] :lol: sigh....
 
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(I edited) some part of me desperately wants enlightenment, but the want is so distracting that I wouldn't see it if it were right in front of my face. isn't the light under every rock and stone?

You're asking me? :) I was asking you lol

Look i'm at a stage of being consciously aware of these things.....but to experience them deeply enough for it to fully permeate my life?

How to shatter an illusion?

I've been told yogic practices can do this but that kind of training can take years (and might not work!). Who has the time or discipline in modern life?

Another route is psychadelics, but there are risks involved with that sort of thing because we are talking about breaking down barriers between the conscious and uncosncious mind. Terrence mckenna has some very interesting things to say on this (see youtube!)

A spider is crawling all over my computer so i googled the meaning of spiders as a symbol and found this:

''The meaning of Spider in India is associated with Maya. The term Maya comes from the Sanskrit root “Ma” which means no form or limit. The term Maya describes the illusory nature of appearances. The Spider’s association with Maya brings about the understanding that not all things are as they appear to be. ''

lol the cosmos is having some fun with me!
 
[MENTION=2578]Kgal[/MENTION] you hit on a lot of points I was gonna hit on if they came up, thank you. [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] I remember an equation from a buddhist teaching. Someone came to buddha and said "I want happiness." So buddha said "take away the I because it is ego. Take away the want because it is worldly attachment. What are you left with?" Happiness. Enlightenment is not illusive. If you seek it, you will find it right before your eyes. Those who've overcomplicated enlightenment say it is like chasing the magic dragon and one will never find it because they haven't or it doesn't exist. The mind is not the filler, it is the filled. The emptiness is the filler and the mind receives, the mind does not create enlightenment.
 
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Okay, funny story- I was at this party with my boyfriend, and this guy just kept trying to get with me, and he was showing off his abs, and just saying ridiculous things, and finally he asked me- "What do I need to do to get a girl?" And I said, "Be more confident" because when somebody acts that desperate and doesn't try to even know if you are with someone or not, it shows how desperate they are.

So yeah, when you are not "grasping for something" that's when you have it.
 
While undeserving of anything resembling comfort from the wicked things I've done, I receive comfort in being undeserving. I realize I dont deserve a good life; I dont deserve a good body; I dont deserve security, yet I receive all when I dont deserve them. Why do we deserve things? If I let go of my wants, I am free, yet I dont deserve freedom and still get it. What good does holding on to wanting good do? When let go, what results becomes good, not the previous good.

Now I realize I dont deserve a good life or to be treated good, so when I am treated good, I am surprised and happy! A mere human can bless me with infinite bliss. If I empty my self of wants and needs, what fills it? If I empty my expectations, all that follows bad is neutral, and all that follows good is great.

what if what you deserve isn't really for you to decide?
what if you have or are all those things just because that's the way the ball bounced and you are attributing some sort of windfall to it?
all those things you describe as being or not being deserving of are your subjective perceptions

i think the ego is an important part of our experience as human beings. i feel that it's essential for the spirit to work alongside the ego in this life. to me, they compliment one another when the balance is right.
plus, i sorta like my ego. i call it roxanne.
 
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what if what you deserve isn't really for you to decide?
what if you have or are all those things just because that's the way the ball bounced and you are attributing some sort of windfall to it?
all those things you describe as being or not being deserving of are your subjective perceptions

i think the ego is an important part of our experience as human beings. i feel that it's essential for the spirit to work alongside the ego in this life. to me, they compliment one another when the balance is right.
plus, i sorta like my ego. i call it roxanne.
The ego is what has the pleasure so of course I like my ego, but it doesnt know best. It would have me drink till I get drunk every time and put certain pleasures too high a priority. I dont know if we ever escape the ego, because the ego is attached to the body, so as long as we're alive we have an ego. Be grateful you dont have trouble with yours! I see the ego and spirit being in complete harmony, but the ego wouldnt have that. It wants domination, not equality. The ego is the beast and should be treated as such.

Now, who else should decide what I deserve? I dont feel as though I'm entitled to anything good for the horrible things I've done, yet I receive them. If I get entitled to something, it gets taken for granted and then taken away. If I empty myself of my wants and needs, all of my wants and needs are filled, but if I try to fill them myself they dont get filled.

I feel the ego itself is a gift. It may be the experiencer, which would make sense considering what happens when someone has an ego death on psychedelics: they feel like they die. The opposite of deserving something is being graced with something, like when one was surely guilty before the judge and was shown mercy.
 
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@Kgal you hit on a lot of points I was gonna hit on if they came up, thank you. @muir I remember an equation from a buddhist teaching. Someone came to buddha and said "I want happiness." So buddha said "take away the I because it is ego. Take away the want because it is worldly attachment. What are you left with?" Happiness. Enlightenment is not illusive. If you seek it, you will find it right before your eyes. Those who've overcomplicated enlightenment say it is like chasing the magic dragon and one will never find it because they haven't or it doesn't exist. The mind is not the filler, it is the filled. The emptiness is the filler and the mind receives, the mind does not create enlightenment.

As always i've really enjoyed reading your insightful posts!

I've been told that we never destroy the ego, we just learn to work with it

Awareness as always is the key

Magicians call the calling up of our demons 'evocation'. Once we call forward this gremlin from our psyche we can say 'ok i see you now, i know what you are and i'm not scared of you. Now i know about you you are not going to keep popping up and affecting my behaviour; now we're going to work with each other and not against each other.'

But the ego is insidious! Just when we think we have it tamed, pride can get the better of us! I think it requires a moment to moment awareness (and i'm not there yet)

Invocation is the calling down of a higher power.

I think the purpose of christianity is to connect with spirit (the holy ghost is the feminine principle) and become a christed consciousness. This means we all have the capacity to connect with spirit and experience that love (it doesn't mean that we have a messianic complex lol!)
 
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what if what you deserve isn't really for you to decide?
what if you have or are all those things just because that's the way the ball bounced and you are attributing some sort of windfall to it?
all those things you describe as being or not being deserving of are your subjective perceptions

i think the ego is an important part of our experience as human beings. i feel that it's essential for the spirit to work alongside the ego in this life. to me, they compliment one another when the balance is right.
plus, i sorta like my ego. i call it roxanne.

A few years ago we were discussing enlightenment in my meditation group and it was said to me: "You cannot take the Ego with you." I clearly remember my lower lip moving outward in a pout and I said: "But I LIKE my Ego and was kinda hoping it could come along with me on this journey." We all laughed.... I was kinda joking - but at the same time - was sad.

I've run across many perspectives on methods to attain enlightenment and the common ground or locus essentially distills down to acceptance of Self. I think as one walks the path to enlightenment there is this sense of letting go of judgments of all kinds about our selves and this also entails letting go of judgment of others. If I view my Ego as the sum total of the learned behaviors and patterns imprinted upon me as a child and those patterns are all based upon a judging action - then my Ego will be let go bit by bit and left behind me as I walk my path.

In a world filled with humans who are out to get one another - I daresay it's almost dangerous to completely eradicate the Ego. The Ego is the one who helps you survive. But there is another part of me who longs for the time when it happens because then I will be able to live without fear. ....for I will survive anyway - maybe not in this form - but I will still Be....
 
But the ego is insidious! Just when we think we have it tamed, pride can get the better of us! I think it requires a moment to moment awareness (and i'm not there yet)

Invocation is the calling down of a higher power.
The cosmos has been kind to you! The ego cannot tame the ego so the invocation is required. Just as the ego will tell you you have the answers, it is lieing. You dont have the answers, you dont have the enlightenment, you dont have the good life, the higher power does. Lo! The higher power loves us so that it will take care of us and allow us to live in harmony with ourselves and all that is, but the ego would not have that. It would even tell you that you cannot do that and it is right! You cannot do that, but the higher power can. Enlightenment isnt something you find, it is something youre given.
 
The cosmos has been kind to you! The ego cannot tame the ego so the invocation is required. Just as the ego will tell you you have the answers, it is lieing. You dont have the answers, you dont have the enlightenment, you dont have the good life, the higher power does. Lo! The higher power loves us so that it will take care of us and allow us to live in harmony with ourselves and all that is, but the ego would not have that. It would even tell you that you cannot do that and it is right! You cannot do that, but the higher power can. Enlightenment isnt something you find, it is something youre given.

That sounds like a pretty gnostic statement to me leaning towards the understanding that our ego is the christian devil which is seeking to keep us rooted on this material plane and seperate from the divinity beyond

When i woke up this morning i was thinking again about the spider on my computer and the symbolism of it as i went through to the bathroom and the first thing i saw was a massive spider in the bath! Another spider was on my windscreen as i was driving to work!

Ok...i get the point...its all an illusion....we weave our own web! lol

I said this to a friend who said that in the kabbalistic system the spider represents tipherith on the tree of life (which is what i'm aspiring to)

So the ego is what keeps us rooted in this illusiory reality which is really just a projection of our consciousness

All consciousness is connected but we live under the impression that we are all seperate

If you want to have a felt experience of that oneness there are various processes that people have used. To experience that oneness is to bridge the gap between knowing something and truly understanding it. Its one thing to know we are one consciousness but another to truly understand it.

Obviously the more you can assimilate that truth the deeper it will permeate into your life until you become like ekhart tolle living that awareness moment to moment and because you are living that truth you are not subject to your ego because you are aware of what your ego is and you have brought it into accordance with your will

So the first thing for an initiate to do is to align their persona. They need to align their mind, body and emotions and once they do this they will naturally, through the nature of this process, pierce the veil of paroketh which is the barrier to you remembering what you really are (infinate consciousness) rather than thinking you are your ego

So what many people are doing is going about various ways to have that felt experience of oneness so that the truth of that mystical experience can then permeate through their being and their life as they assimilate that new truth

Its kind of like the moment in the matrix films where neo suddenly is able to see all the numbers and codes that make up the illusiory matrix. However the numbers and codes are of course just another layer in themselves and so it goes.....there are higher and higher realms of consciousness

So the western magickal tradition is about trying to make so many connections for example through kabbalistic numerology and correspondances that your mind eventually has a kind of spasm and you suddenly understand how everything really is connected; this approach requires a kind of filling of the mind

The eastern tradition is more meditative and focussed around emptying the mind to acheive the same felt experience of oneness

many people in the west have been usuing the methods of the shamens as a short cut....ie the use of psychadelics which will temporarily disintegrate your ego and give you that felt experience of connectedness to all things

Some people like to combine all the above lol

As you know science is saying some very interesting things about reality at an atomic level which might offer some empirical foundations for this connectedness that mystics have always spoken about...which might open the door to people who describe themselves as 'rational types' to get to grips with this sort of thing

Regarding psychadelics....leary always advised getting the 'set' and 'setting' right before having an experience....I think that's very good advice! Also if a person has been working to align their mind, body and emotions then they will probably be in a more stable frame of mind to embark on such a powerful inward journey....not to be taken lightly, but instead with great respect....respect for the plant and for what you are trying to achieve and for what you are asking from it, which is greater understanding

So my friend informed me that this inner battle with our ego is the age old battle....it is the battle between horus and seth, it is the process Jesus went through in the desert
 
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That sounds like a pretty gnostic statement to me leaning towards the understanding that our ego is the christian devil which is seeking to keep us rooted on this material plane and seperate from the divinity beyond

So the ego is what keeps us rooted in this illusiory reality which is really just a projection of our consciousness

So the first thing for an initiate to do is to align their persona. They need to align their mind, body and emotions and once they do this they will naturally, through the nature of this process, pierce the veil of paroketh which is the barrier to you remembering what you really are (infinate consciousness) rather than thinking you are your ego

So the western magickal tradition is about trying to make so many connections for example through kabbalistic numerology and correspondances that your mind eventually has a kind of spasm and you suddenly understand how everything really is connected; this approach requires a kind of filling of the mind
Through the spiritual fire everything passes at one time or another and it all stokes the fire. The ego will be consumed in the fire, but there always has to be an experiencer so one will be made to experience with a stronger fire. Who is the experiencer? I think to neglect our human side is too far loss of balance. Why would we neglect one world for another when we can combine them both? I envision us perfectly meshing together being infinite consciousness and being human, but I cant see where it goes after that. Which western magickal traditions are you talking about?

So my friend informed me that this inner battle with our ego is the age old battle....it is the battle between horus and seth, it is the process Jesus went through in the desert

This makes me think the battle depicted in revelation is in our soul.
 
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A battle with one inevitable conclusion.

Dwell in deep, meditative trances or blissful ignorance. It ends the same way, don't it?
 
Through the spiritual fire everything passes at one time or another and it all stokes the fire. The ego will be consumed in the fire, but there always has to be an experiencer so one will be made to experience with a stronger fire. Who is the experiencer? I think to neglect our human side is too far loss of balance. Why would we neglect one world for another when we can combine them both? I envision us perfectly meshing together being infinite consciousness and being human, but I cant see where it goes after that. Which western magickal traditions are you talking about?


This makes me think the battle depicted in revelation is in our soul.[/COLOR]

I think its all about internal processes. But if we are all one consciousness then everything occuring is occuring within us. Lon Milo Duquette said: 'its all in your head....you just have no idea how big your head is!'

So yes revelation is occuring within us but it may well occur without us as well because both are the same (as above so below....is the hermetic principle that was on the emerald tablet and also enshrined in the corpus hermeticum)

The mystics have always said that the answers to everything is within....like a holographic universe....the whole is contained within every part

The mystery schools said 'know thyself and understand the universe!'

On the walls of the oracle at Delphi were inscribed the words 'know thyself'. Later after there had been much conflict in the greek speaking world some more more words were added: 'all things in moderation'

The fusion of the male and female we are talking about i think is working on a number of different levels. Jung might talk about the anima and animus on the level of our psyche whilst yogis might talk about the union of shiva and shakti. the two channels around the spine that these subtle energies are transported along can be seen in a water/fire, male/female sense as well; the aim being to raise the kundelini energy upto the crown chakra and to fire up the third eye

Kabbalah and many other things have been revealed to people while in these mystic states, because these states are altering our perceptions. They are radically changing how we perceive reality. For example someone who has had a mystical experience might say to us that we are all bodies of light because that is how they perceived us during that experience....perhaps science may prove such claims in time

So there is talk of an 'awakening'....but what if this awakening is a shift in consciousness....a shift in perceptions....of how we perceive things which will in turn drastically change how we relate to each other and how we treat each other?

Of course elites would not want this to happen because they are happy with how things are (with them at the top of the heap!). Or as Bill Hicks said 'we've got a lot invested in this ride, shut him up!' It stands to reason that any people seeking to say these things would be persecuted by the elites. A contemporary example of this would be Tibet which is suffering cultural genocide at the hands of the centrally controlled Chinese; this is because Tibet is the spiritual heartland of the east....its the source. Tibetans even say that Mount Kailash is the home of shiva and the spiritual source...which i guess is an anthropomorphism of the human subtle energy system where shiva resides in the crown

The west has actually been heavily influenced by the east. The Chinese have old systems for example they have expressed the duality of reality in the yin and yang symbol:
Yin%u00252BYang%2Bis%2Bborn%2B%2BZulumike.jpg

Ideas were travelling from east to west along trade routes such as the spice route. The middle east became a meeting point of east and west and many ideas flourished there.

The Knights Templar brought back many ideas and became hugely powerful bankers and builders. They expressed the duality of reality on their beaussant sheild design:

Z3wsB8KG28-8.png

When they were persecuted they went underground and re-invented themselves as freemasonry which expresses duality in the floor design of their temples:

george+washingtons+masonic+apron.jpg

Duality is also expresed through the androgenous baphomet which has female breasts and male phallus. he's depicted here pointing up and down (as above so below), next to a statue of freemason and president of the US George Washington:

BaphometWashington.jpg
 
A battle with one inevitable conclusion.

Dwell in deep, meditative trances or blissful ignorance. It ends the same way, don't it?

No

I'm not sure the ignorant are blissful either
 
[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

Are you sure that ego death isn't a plot by the empowered elite to convince people to drown their troubles in meaningless navel-gazing and lazy introspection instead of taking action to change the world around them? ;)

I was into this stuff when I was about your age, Kmal. I wasn't one of those kids who did LSD for kicks I actually believed that it was an experience that would help me get over my ego and develop spiritually… and when I took it I guess you could say that it's one way to experience the 'oceanic consciousness' where you have the sense of everything being one and everything being beautiful and alive with dimensions that you hadn't previously considered… and at the time I was pretty happy with myself-- but then it eventually broke down and became noise… and that made me nauseous.

And then I was on my way to this temple in the mountains for Siddhartha's birthday a few years ago and the night before I arrived I saw a program on TV where a monk was talking about enlightenment, and he said that the answer was 'just that', and then he put his arm down on the table… and when I saw that, I just thought 'Yeah, that probably is it'.

It was one of the reasons that I stopped believing in/thinking about truth and the whole question/answer dynamic, and kept on thinking 'just that'-- so yeah, not 'this' or 'this' or 'this', just that. I've been trying to tell myself to stop worrying about it ever since.

I don't really do as much meditation anymore because I'm lazy/busy/just don't feel like it, but I've also come to the conclusion that actively looking for an answer is probably the wrong way to go about it. I don't think you should just be a complete idiot and stop thinking about it, but there's no need to approach everything as if you're desperately trying to sort everything out and find the solution and decipher the code, because I don't think there is one.

Even Siddhartha himself said that the middle way was the best-- which I take to mean everything in moderation. Obviously I don't actually know anything, but I'm pretty sure that if you're constantly wound up and overexcited and overthinking everything and trying to find significance/'deeper meaning' in things, you're probably not going to find any peace whatsoever.

If you just switch off for a while and stop trying to make everything into something else and just let it be what it is, then you'll probably get a lot further than if you're collecting all kinds of theories and bits of info and ideas and frantically trying to piece them together into some sort of coherent whole. It isn't about knowing 'how' to do it or formulating a strategy or a way to do it, it's just something you do and then that's that. Actually, it could be something that you've already done millions of times every day, but the thing is you're expecting it to be this huge deal that changes everything and makes you feel a certain way, so when it happened and it wasn't that, you ignored it and went back to 'normal'.