economical prosperity or freedom of mind | INFJ Forum

economical prosperity or freedom of mind

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by Morgain, Feb 11, 2010.

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  1. economical prosperity, the more money the better, even if I had to think and do what they tell me to

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  2. freedom of mind, even if I have to live in a tent in the middle of the desert with not enough money

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  1. Morgain

    Morgain defective wisdom
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    ok this is a long story for a simple question.

    I went tonight to a photo reportage about Tibet given by someone who has lived in China for many years and had made several trips to Tibet. since I have been in Tibet the year before him, I have seen 80% of his journey with my own eyes.

    It dashled me that his view on the country and the political problems are so completely different then mine. He has a very chinese and economical vision. For him Tibet was a backland country under the power of rivaling monasteries who used the modan people for there own enrichment. Tibetan people are durty, poor and have a stupid simple religion and the good motherland China has bring only economical prosperity to these poor fellows. Tibet has always been a part of China, even in the period that it was independently gouverment (by these selfish rivaling monks) it was still theoreticaly a part of China so it was only normal that China took it back.

    Although I can agree that the country is very poor and China has brought economical prosperity in the region, when I was in Tibet I felt a lot of sadness and melancholy in the air. They are so very deep entagled with there religion and traditions. Although I'm not a fan of Tibetan boedhism, which is so much more folkloristic than the sober Japanese zenboedhism, I respect there religion. It is there soul! And China is killing it year by year with there "everyone has to be exactly the same" mentality. Children has to learn Chinese at school instead of Tibetan and people (monks) that speak out there opinion (even in a peaceful way) are arrested and locked up in concentration (!!!!!!) camps, tortured for years without a trail.

    For me saying that China has the right to do this because Tibet as always been theres, to me is the same as saying that Germany had the right to take over Belgium and unite the "German tribes" again, making the "aryan race (han chinese)" the elite and all other races as lesser people, locking up everyone who has an other opinion or who doesn't work "for the greater good of the nation".

    I don't know, maybe I'm missing something. It is indeed the fact that these people has gained some more economical wealth than before, but they payed with there freedom of mind. What would for you be most important? Would you give up your economical wealth if your freedom was treatened?
     
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    #1 Morgain, Feb 11, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  2. Billy

    Billy Contents Under Pressure
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    From what I have seen it goes both ways. We had a whole bunch of tibetan monks renting the apartment under us when I was staying in China and they seemed really grateful to be in the city with so much "luxury".

    I don't feel the US has any real authority to tell China is cant reclaim one of its tracts of land again, the federal government here decimated the South when the south wanted more freedom. So we cant say shit.

    I am all too familiar with your friends opinion though its very typical of most Chinese, my ex gf is Chinese she basically said the same thing.

    All I could think during the Olympics was that Tibetans are fucking stupid, I wouldn't have embarrassed China so badly on the international news like that, you know what happened the second those cameras went off, the tanks rolled in. No doubt.

    I think in the long run being a part of China would be beneficial for the tibetan people, not so good for the Dali Lama or any of the people who had the power taken from them though.

    We shouldn't be so quick to judge the Chinese, in terms of modern society and civilization they were very stunted and they are coming a looooooong way to get up to par with the rest of us. They just need more time to get their human rights in order and that will come with affluence.

    Do you think anyone gave a shit about child welfare, women's rights or minorities in the US or Europe during the Industrial revolution? Hell no.
     
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  3. IndigoSensor

    IndigoSensor Product Obtained
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    I see how your opening spurred this idea, but I am going to disregard that for a second.

    The way I see it, there can be freedom of thought and prosperity. Of course, we will never have the pure form of this. That would in essence be anarchy, which can not work on this planet (simply by the nature of people). Still, we can aceive this in a relative sense. Many countries around the world have this. The US has a pretty high degree of freedom of mind, and prosperity, many european countries do, and others throughout the world. None of these are perfect, but still work.

    I would not want to live in a world without economic prosperity. Call me a product of western socieity, but I would not be happy without a clean, confortable home, access to the internet, and good food. Some people can do without this, but I can not, and many many people in this world can not either. Everyone is different, and this is why having a middle ground is best. Having either extreme in effect "locks" people into that region even if they want no part of it. Tibet and china are good examples of these extremes. The people in each country are in essence "locked", either by their government and or socieity. To deviate is hugely taboo. This makes neither of them correct in what they are doing. However I do feel much more sympathy to tibet due to the fact that china's government is very cruel with this.
     
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  4. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Economic Posterity is having a strong passive income so that you can retire without anyone else telling you what to do.

    It is by its very nature, Freedom of mind.
     
  5. Roger

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    Cancelled i was unable to explain my opinion.
     
    #5 Roger, Feb 12, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
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    Morgain

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    yeah I was also thinking in this way. with economical prosperaty comes more money, less surveival and more time to spend on spiritual and mental enrichment.

    roger, I really don't know what you mean by your post :D
     
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  7. Roger

    Roger ...

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    I deleted my post because i failed to explain it.
     
  8. TinyBubbles

    TinyBubbles anarchist

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    freedom of mind and cultural preservation is much more important than economic prosperity, and I think there is not much to justify china's political and industrial intrusion into tibet. tibet should be a sovereign nation by now and it would be were it not for its close geographical proximity to china.
     
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  9. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    Oh this is an interesting subject. I find it interesting that Tibet is splattered all over the place but the other, even larger area of Western China that belonged to the Uighur tribespeople is practically ignored. Not that I am a particularly avid supporter of either.

    Sure, certain methods of the Han chinese are far from ethical, there has been a lot of nuclear testing in the western half of China, esp. in the 50's, that caused severe birth defects with the Uighur locals.

    I abhor persecution by the Chinese but I do not like the Dalai llama or the radical islamic heads of Uighur factions. Let's not forget the Dalai Llama's a guy that thinks he's divine and who accepted a huge sum of donation money from a japanese terrorist cult that attacked the Tokyo subways (most probably donated to spite the Chinese, a classic 'an enemy of my enemy is my friend'). He also advocates the banning of oral or anal sex, masturbation and has pointers on the proper way to pay for prostitution, apparently. He's a nepotist and levies an 'independence tax' on his subjects. In short, he shouldn't be supported on the basic fact that he is the spiritual head of an oppressed minority.
     
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    #9 Krumplenump, Feb 12, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
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  10. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    When has the Dalai Llama done all that? Please provide references to go with your accusations.
     
  11. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    Of course.

    This site is rather interesting: http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/dorjeshugden09.php

    Another interesting link focusing on murky finances and whatnot from a 'free Tibet' site: http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/dalai-lama/dalai-lama-murky-finances/


    On sexuality and stuff: http://www.quietmountain.org/links/teachings/gayrites.htm

    I suggest you also look into the past doing of previous Dalai Lamas, who are of course all one and the same reincarnation...

    People really shouldn't support him by default. It's an all too common misconception that he's on a crusade of righteousness; people love nothing better than to venerate some distant 'warrior of morality'. But, yet again, another religiously motivated man has plently of evidence to expose him as a charlatan and hippocritical meddler in murky dealings and subversive politics.

    [​IMG]
     
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    #11 Krumplenump, Feb 12, 2010
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  12. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    The first link said a lot about what the japanese dude claimed, but nothing about the dalai llama.
    The second link said a lot of stuff about what buddists should not do, without forcing it on non buddists.
    The final bit, what you said, is no less stupid than morons thinking Jesus was divine, or that there is a god.

    This guy thinks he is the reincarnation of a particular fellow. He also thinks that all people are reincarnations of other fellows.
    So what?

    Nothing incriminating has been said about the dalai llama thus far, however you want to compare him to some genocidal political party in beijing.
     
  13. Krumplenump

    Krumplenump Community Member

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    ? If you take that very certain stance it's evident you're already biased and predisposed to refute everything hurled at him. I could draw a parallel with how when someone doesn't want to believe something, they'll remain sceptical until the most blatant of facts are shoved down their throats - but if someone wants to believe something they'll do so at the mention of a mere rumour of it's validity.

    Who said I'm comparing the two? I am simply not supporting the Dalai Lama. He's achieved the same 'untouchable' status as mother Theresa, who was also, incidentally, a figure who had some quite questionable practices.
     
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  14. OP
    Morgain

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    I don't know, people claim a lot

    I have seen him in real life (although he was like 5 inches tall from where I stood :D). I don't have a hinch that he is not sincere, not at all and I have a good sense of who is bull shiting and who not. Although his regards my not be as clean as it should be, he is only human after all. He doesn't state that he is divine, he is very humble and compassionate, I'm very sure of that.
     
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  15. Krumplenump

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    I can't comment on how genuine you felt he was cause that's a personal feeling. But I also don't really question his genuineness in regards to his goal of Tibetan independence. In fact his demand for independence from Beijing is a very realistic and perfectly good demand in my view, but doesn't he claim he is a hereditary King and has been appointed by heaven himself..? Shai would say 'so what' to that, but you have to question the convenience of how his social position and his goals run parallel to each other.

    I mean it's all very well to praise the presence, aura and charm of a man in his position, but that does not invalidate evidence of far-fetched preachings on sexuality or of shady financial dealings.

    I'm sure the Queen has quite a presence and is very polite, but some say she got Diana killed! (extreme example)
     
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  16. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    I'm not predisposed to believe nothing bad about him. I'm predisposed to believe nothing bad about anyone unless there's some proof.

    The Sydney Morning Herald is a very biased newspaper in favour of economic trading, and the economy in this country is tilted towards China. The PM didn't even meet with the DL because he didn't want to offend china.

    SMH is owned by Fox news.

    They can claim anything they want, but without actual proof, or the dalai saying it, hell, i'd settle for a quote from the DL saying he backed that guy as evidence against him. But not even the SMH would go so far as to lie about what someone said.
     
  17. Krumplenump

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    Okay Shai, I'll set about finding other sources for you, from books if I have to that i'll type up.
     
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  18. Tamagochi

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    My view might be overly idealistic but I strongly believe in freedom of mind. Arguments that Tibet was in poor shape when chinese "liberated" them are not valid - China was in no better state itself at that time. If tibetians were allowed to remain free they might have developed a prosperous economy on their own.

    When you think about it - such claim even insults humanity. It basically means that tibetians are second-rate humans who are mentally unable to be prosperous on their own - therefore it gives China a moral right to occupy them.

    My own country was a victim of such an oppression for a long time. I would never give in for such propaganda.
     
  19. BlinkandThink

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    I'm not going to comment on China/Tibet ... only about the principle in the thread title and poll.

    To be frank, I think most people in Western society already do the first option, and I'm not much different.

    I'll take the money, please. Thank you.
     
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  20. OP
    Morgain

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    you are right Tama,

    Saying that it is good that China dominates Tibet is the same as saying that Europe has done a great job colonizing half of the world. They have brought prosperity and luxery to those countries even though there freedom is taken away...
     
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