Downtalking "Western culture" | INFJ Forum

Downtalking "Western culture"

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I have noticed that there seems to exist in Western culture the interesting phenomenon in which people--especially the more new-agey types--really like to tout the superiority, openmindedness, and true-to-nature-ness or whatever it's supposed to symbolize, of seemingly anything that is related to Eastern (or just otherwise non-Western) culture, and present it in contrast to Western or European culture; whether it be with religion and spirituality, social attitudes, food and health, etiquette... the variety of opportunities that people take to engage in this type of exchange with others is seemingly endless.

This phenomenon in which people downplay the importance of their own culture and snootily advertise the benefits of supposed attitudes or whatever of other cultures is something that does not happen elsewhere. It is unique to North Americans. Talking about the wonderfulness of cultures other than our own can be overheard in casual exchanges as commonly as conversations about the weather.

I think people who engage in it do it to seem knowledgable and worldly, to open the minds of others, as if they are supposed to be wise, travelled shamans, who ventured back to North America or Europe so they could spread some sort of invaluable insight from the distant lands that they returned from.

Being someone whose family is primarily Buddhist and from "Eastern culture", it usually just sounds somewhere between mildly entertaining to breathtakingly retarded to me whenever I happen to witness this behaviour from Westernized people (I won't say white people outright, because it can come from whitewashed/Americanized people of any ethnicity).

Conversely, being patriotic to ones own country or culture seems to warrant the reaction in others that a person is low-brow or culturally insensitive. If you aren't a fanatic of yoga, Buddhism, or the health benefits of green or white tea, or if you don't know how to brew your own chai, well then you must be an uncool and uncultured redneck! Why is this mentally processed and grouped into polar extremes? Can people not take any interest in cultures or ideologies other than the "standard" that they are used to, stay in their own little cultural bubble, and not be considered rednecks? Why can't people be proud of what they are associated with? I think the philosophies and innovations of the Western world are great and there is a lot to be proud of there. You guys have Socrates, tasty food, democracy, and people with blue eyes. Can it get any more awesome than that? Y'know, this whole thing kind of reminds me of angry teenagers who hate their parents without realizing just how much their parents have done for them.

Discuss/explain yourselves!


(Yeah I know that presenting this topic is kind of ironic lol but it isn't really through-and-though irony if you think about it.)
 
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I surprisingly almost never have had to deal with people like that. Here, we like to unite the East with the West because there are fantastic things about both regions, and everything in between.

I do understand what you are talking about though. There is a parody video I probably have shown you but will post anyways, since I think it is relevant to the thread:

[video=youtube;iOavbyDKSi0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOavbyDKSi0[/video]




I am all for embracing other beliefs, but if people are doing so in a shallow manner...it rubs me the wrong way.
 
[video=youtube;fhsxz-qP8b4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhsxz-qP8b4[/video]
 
@Serenity Hmm... It's not exactly the content of what people are talking about. Purely new-agey stuff does not sound silly. I am talking specifically about when people clearly state that something is from a different culture when they introduce it into a conversation. There is little inherent value in something being foreign or novel, and when the emphasis of value lies superficially on the attribute of something being foreign or novel, pr when it is presented in such a way, it makes it silly. It doesn't always go hand in hand with outright downtalking of Western culture, but often it does, or it is implied by the tone of how people communicate it. This makes it even worse.
 
I think understanding what "Western" and "Eastern" culture is helps. I was always under the impression that the West focuses on the individual, while the East focuses on the collective. Even then, I'm not sure how extreme the differences are now, since both sides have mingled with each other over the centuries.

Other than that, cultures from all over the world have many similarities at their core.
 
Horatio said:
I think understanding what "Western" and "Eastern" culture is helps. I was always under the impression that the West focuses on the individual, while the East focuses on the collective. Even then, I'm not sure how extreme the differences are now, since both sides have mingled with each other over the centuries.

Other than that, cultures from all over the world have many similarities at their core.
Click to expand...

Lol. Don't pull the race/culture has no clearly defined characteristics shtick.

Sure there are similarities and there has been intermingling of cultures in modern times, but I'm sure everyone has a basic idea of where some key ideas originated.
 
In my mind, I like to call this 'western apologeticism', but I don't think that's right.

Often, these kinds of views boil down to the whole noble savage thing all over again.
 
I don't feel my culture much. Since I was a child I could identify only with a part of it. I think it's possible to be born where you are and not being able to fully feel it.
I adapt and mix whatever I like as I go along. I knew eager patriots (both - Western and Asian) and the ones who put the whole Western world down. Both brush me the wrong way, to be honest :tape: I like to get to know something new and share some of my knowledge as well. I see this process as sharing and learning. When someone shuts it down, I see a door I can't open and move on. It'd be unfair to put any culture down like some people do with that sure firm word that makes it even worse to me. Western (I'm sure as it's Eastern) has a varied culture from place to place. I moved a few times in Europe and it isn't the same everywhere, so I'm not sure how to define Western culture, tbh.
 
[MENTION=3667]Meer[/MENTION] hit it kinda on the nose.

This isn't a new phenomenon, it's cultural thread that's been working in-and-out of American culture since, at least, the early 1800's. And it isn't just with Eastern cultures, First Nations people have had their fair share of culture appropriation and misappropriation for decades now...

Bat+for+Lashes+headdress.jpg

For the most part, stuff like this gets pulled by vaguely, counter-cultural types. They're unsatisfied with American society and values. They're unsatisfied with the religion their parents taught them, the way their parents dressed, the food they ate, so they start to turn to "exotic" cultures blindly groping for some kind of meaning and something beyond what they already have.

And this would be ok. There's nothing wrong with looking for alternatives. And if this really drives them to learn and immerse themselves in other cultures, that's cool. The problem is, they come into these cultures like obnoxious tourists, leaving their trash everywhere, taking pictures of things or people they shouldn't, and touching the goddamn glass. They start practicing a bastardized form of some foreign religion and Westernize and/or misunderstand the basic tenets, ideas, and precepts of said religion, or they reduce sacred objects of special cultural importance to a shallow fashion statement, and a whole host of things in between.
 
There are two currents running through humanity. They have different well springs

For example many people trace various spiritual strands back to Tibet. Within tibet there are red caps and yellow caps. One represents a solar current and the other represents a lunar current. there is a further polarity of spirit and matter.

In the west the underground spiritual current has been kabbalah. It is used by solar groups such as the freemasons and the now infamous illuminati. It involves the practitioner using numerology, astrology, colours, plants and just about any other form of association you can think of in a process of connecting all of these things to such a degree that the practitioner then becomes enlightened as to the connectivity of everything. It a process of filling the mind in a sense to bring it to a state of spasm or spiritual apotheosis

In the east the spiritual current has been different. It has tended to revolve around emptying the mind for example: zen, taoism, buddhism in order to produce a spiritual apotheosis

The illuminati who control the western banking system have their symbol of the eye in the triangle on the back of their dollar bill that they print. Nothing grounds people in matter like money does. This is because they represent the solar and matter polarity. They have been in the ascendancy for along time now and have many people hooked into the consumerist materiality and money fixation and thus grounded in the material world and distracted from the spiritual. this has created an imbalance in humanity that many are seeking to re-address by looking into spiritual paths including eastern spirituality

Some people have argued that different cultures determine that these different methods suit people from the east or the west, however due to increased travel people have been discovering the differing spiritual systems and the dominance of the western hermetic current as the way to enlightenment in the west has been challenged

Then in the 50's there was a backlash amongst US youth against the stuffiness of previous generations. The 'beat' generation were shocked at the destruction that their parents had taken part in in the second world war. Bare in mind that there was none of the psychological support then that there is now. Post traumatic stress disorder wasn't generall recognised. Now imagine a generation of damaged young men coming home. This process might have led to a feeling of alienation amongst the youth.

This then flowered into the 60's peace and love movement. Psychadelic drugs were commonly used and people opened up to other possible cultural appraoches for example eastern spiritualism. Timothy leary was one of the leading lights of this time. His answer to the stufiness of the established order and to their war mongering was to advise people to: 'think for yourselves and question authority' and to 'tune in, turn on and drop out'. By 'dropping out' he didn't mean sit around smoking weed all day he just meant don't blindly follow the current system, make your own

It does appear that the CIA were also experimenting heavily with LSD. They had their own agenda. Their plan, or rather the plan of their superiors, was to break down the fabric of the old society in order to create a new order from the chaos. they are still trying to achieve this. Their vision is to create a one world governement, controlled by a central world bank, with a cultural hegemony based around corporate goods such as coca cola, blue jeans, pop music, junk food, blockbuster movies etc.

It is clear to many people around the world however that whereever there is centralised control there is oppression and exploitation. It stands to reason that the more power we give away to a centralised authority the less say we have over the running of our lives and the easier it is for a dictatorial regime to control us how they see fit.

So although a breaking free of old ways and a reforging of society can be a great thing if it means that whole generations won't blindly go to war like they did in WWII, there are also inherent dangers ie that the elites will create an even more centrally controlled system; this is a particular concern for many now due to the advances in surveilance technology

So i think when you talk about western culture you're really talking about corporate culture, which is usually degraded. The aim of the elite is to dumb the population down and make them less sophisticated so that they can be more easily controlled. When some westerners look to the east they often see cultures that have evolved over thousands of years and reached levels of great sophistication compared to their own homogenised, dumbed down, corporate imposed pseudo-culture

So before we defend 'western culture' perhaps we should identify what exactly that is, where it has come from and why?
 
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I suppose that part of it is the post-colonial mindset… westerners see their own culture as inextricably linked with a lot of horrible things. I don't think western culture is unique in this regard, but I do think that there are things about the western mindset that make the negatives seem more relevant than the positives.

I've read (or maybe my friend told me, I can't remember) that Eastern people assume that everything is as it should be (everything is 'good'), and therefore tend to focus on the good things and try to make them better (avoiding confrontation), whereas Westerners assume that things need to get better, and tend to focus on the problems and try to correct them (in some ways, they actively seek out confrontation)… so in a sense, the Western mindset thrives when it focuses on the negatives/problems/etc.-- so it then follows that westerners would be more likely to complain about/downplay/criticize their own culture.

I'm not sure that patriotism is the same in all western countries, though… Canadian patriotism is definitely not seen as a bad thing in Canada-- I think because the majority of Canadians still see their national identity as peaceful, progressive/liberal, etc… even though we're actually major polluters and huge destroyers of the environment (for the sake of big business), as well as treating the First Nations and Easterners rather horribly (the second Newfoundland joined Canada the government sold their fishing rights to the Japanese-- how's that for being assholes?). But our civil rights and funding for public sectors is still way ahead of the US… and being next to the US sort of lends us this whole 'at least we're not THEM' sort of attitude which is actually kind of elitist when you think about it, even though a lot of it is probably also due to a massive little brother complex.

I'm not sure about other countries but from what I can tell online it seems that, as you say, racists and radical right-wing organizations sometimes co-opt patriotism in other European countries, to the point where not wanting to be patriotic is a reaction to that.

Patriotism is also a visceral/emotional response, so educated people are more likely to be wary-- and post-secondary education is now far more widespread than it has ever been. But then again, I've also read that it's actually the opposite in some Asian countries… especially South Korea, where the intellectuals are actually more patriotic-- I suppose because that's the nature of their educational institutions-- there's a lot of rote memorization and learning the test, and not so much emphasis on critical thinking.

I do think that denial plays a huge part in Asian culture and the Japanese concept of giri (socially obligated behavior) means that they're unlikely to say negative things about their country unless they actually get to the point where they know you/trust you/let you 'in'. Once you get 'in' then you're probably more likely to hear about what's wrong with Japan…. but Western culture really doesn't have these restrictions so westerners will just give it to you straight, even if they don't know you at all. This would actually seem vulgar in certain other cultures (the concept of leaky emotions-- you're not supposed to show weakness: crying, complaining too much, anger, lust, crying, a runny nose-- all of these signify a lack of control). But westerners aren't used to preserving the harmony, and tend to take each other 'as is', instead of gradually through a sort of 'barrier'. I've actually read that when the Western world first happened upon the Japanese, they weren't sure if they even had emotions… I remember seeing some figures where 'scientists' were studying facial movements to try to find the emotions that westerners freely let fly whenever they want.

Multiculturalism also plays a role-- western societies are by far the most cosmopolitan, and I think being exposed to a lot of other cultures on a daily basis means that you're going to end up cultivating a more varied palette than someone in a more homogenous society, who isn't going to necessarily have any sense of what other cultures are actually like, and so is not going to have much of a basis of comparison. Sure 'people are people', but as you said there is definitely variation once you peel back the superficial and start to really examine things… you can't just undo centuries of culture and behavior in a single generation, these things are inevitably going to be passed on… and these things also originated largely in isolation in different histories with different defining moments/events/survival strategies.

The Americas aren't perfect, but they DO have an extremely cosmopolitan heart… even though people think it was a bunch of white people who started it, most of it was built by people who were from colonies (Ireland and Scotland are different from England, even though Americans have largely forgotten this fact), or other nations. When the culture was in its genesis these people had to co-exist with immigrants from all over Europe-- the English, the Irish, the Scottish, the French, the Spanish, the Dutch-- nowadays we just say 'white European' but the truth is that these people were as or possibly more different than Chinese are from Koreans or Japanese-- all of whom would be offended if you mistook them for each other. Even the First Nations were largely accepted by the colonists-- it's easy to paint them as villains but I really don't think it was like that-- maybe a few cases here and there (and probably there was unease on both sides), but they also taught each other and learned from each other… it was only in the later stages that the natives got such a raw deal… and even so I don't think that anyone denied that learning from the natives aided the colonists greatly in terms of their ability to survive.

Anyways, good topic and sorry about my lengthy post… this is something I find very interesting.
 
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niffer said:
I have noticed that there seems to exist in Western culture the interesting phenomenon in which people--especially the more new-agey types--really like to tout the superiority, openmindedness, and true-to-nature-ness or whatever it's supposed to symbolize, of seemingly anything that is related to Eastern (or just otherwise non-Western) culture, and present it in contrast to Western or European culture; whether it be with religion and spirituality, social attitudes, food and health, etiquette... the variety of opportunities that people take to engage in this type of exchange with others is seemingly endless.

This phenomenon in which people downplay the importance of their own culture and snootily advertise the benefits of supposed attitudes or whatever of other cultures is something that does not happen elsewhere. It is unique to North Americans. Talking about the wonderfulness of cultures other than our own can be overheard in casual exchanges as commonly as conversations about the weather.

I think people who engage in it do it to seem knowledgable and worldly, to open the minds of others, as if they are supposed to be wise, travelled shamans, who ventured back to North America or Europe so they could spread some sort of invaluable insight from the distant lands that they returned from.

Being someone whose family is primarily Buddhist and from "Eastern culture", it usually just sounds somewhere between mildly entertaining to breathtakingly retarded to me whenever I happen to witness this behaviour from Westernized people (I won't say white people outright, because it can come from whitewashed/Americanized people of any ethnicity).

Conversely, being patriotic to ones own country or culture seems to warrant the reaction in others that a person is low-brow or culturally insensitive. If you aren't a fanatic of yoga, Buddhism, or the health benefits of green or white tea, or if you don't know how to brew your own chai, well then you must be an uncool and uncultured redneck! Why is this mentally processed and grouped into polar extremes? Can people not take any interest in cultures or ideologies other than the "standard" that they are used to, stay in their own little cultural bubble, and not be considered rednecks? Why can't people be proud of what they are associated with? I think the philosophies and innovations of the Western world are great and there is a lot to be proud of there. You guys have Socrates, tasty food, democracy, and people with blue eyes. Can it get any more awesome than that? Y'know, this whole thing kind of reminds me of angry teenagers who hate their parents without realizing just how much their parents have done for them.

Discuss/explain yourselves!


(Yeah I know that presenting this topic is kind of ironic lol but it isn't really through-and-though irony if you think about it.)
Click to expand...


I agree, and think that there has been a gradual and perhaps purposeful shift to denigrate Western culture, and and with this underlying pressure, now some/many people are jumping on the bandwagon because they consciously or sub-consciously believe that verbalizing their "disdain" will increase or maintain their social position. I think that there is a lot of momentum in said direction, and that it could be more than just a fad.

ps: I used the word "some".
 
No, @niffer, no.

It happens from the other side as well. Take it from someone living outside the NA/Canada.

The fact that America and Canada have essentially being a cultural juggernaut must mean something.

Reverse ethnocentrism, I said. Some sort of distaste and disappointment with one's own culture, whether objectively (value-based), or subjectively (personal experience; for example those who have been an outcast, or violently opposed by their own culture.
 
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The reason why someone may feel superiority of other cultural beliefs or want to feel proud that they are aware or connected to other cultures is that sometimes in their own cultures, difference is often demeaned or disrespected and people may be narrow in their view or understanding of other cultures. Sometimes, when people are in their own little cultural bubbles, they fail to appreciate other cultures. And if you're native to a culture but find yourself feeling outside that culture, not believing or supporting the beliefs or attitudes, you may feel like an outsider, and so it becomes easiers to value things outside your own culture because you may feel that it makes your different feelings and beliefs more acceptable. It means, you don't have to accept or fit into the singular thinking of the culture in which you've been born or raised. It makes you feel you have choices and not restricted to having to think or view things exactly as those in your own culture.
 
Op, are you referring to the phenomenon of people who live in America and constantly hate on America and refer to everyone who lives here as a redneck, also using derogatory terms like 'merica? Which implies that most anywhere else is great even though they've never been there?

maybe you are or maybe not, but this practice has been getting on my nerves lately. Mostly liberals act this way to tout their superiority to the redneck conservatives who support the warmongers. In my experience anyway.
 
Trifoilum said:
No, @niffer, no.

It happens from the other side as well. Take it from someone living outside the NA/Canada.

The fact that America and Canada have essentially being a cultural juggernaut must mean something.

Reverse ethnocentrism, I said. Some sort of distaste and disappointment with one's own culture, whether objectively (value-based), or subjectively (personal experience; for example those who have been an outcast, or violently opposed by their own culture.
Click to expand...

Yeah I've seen it once in a while from people from other places but it's usually from people who have strong political beliefs or things like that. It's not as much of a cute, casual topic.
 
UBERROGO said:
Op, are you referring to the phenomenon of people who live in America and constantly hate on America and refer to everyone who lives here as a redneck, also using derogatory terms like 'merica? Which implies that most anywhere else is great even though they've never been there?

maybe you are or maybe not, but this practice has been getting on my nerves lately.
Click to expand...

I didn't have that in mind when writing it because I haven't experienced it all that much, but that does sound like one of the symptoms.
 
Is Canada a cultural juggernaut?

Well, Beiber...

Still, I always saw them as being like America but a bit more like Britain if not even a little better than Britian. Like Apone said, though, they're up to dodgy stuff just like the USA and UK anyway.

There have been some good posts. Interesting thread.
 
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