Do you think it is ok to fatally harm someone because they are bad or killed someone?

[Gaze]

There is a common belief in our culture that killing people because they're bad or because they've killed someone is acceptable and justifiable. Many of these reasons are "justified" according to various views:

1) Self defense (protect self or others)
2) punishment of crimes against humanity
3) potential to harm (although that reason may be questionable)


And there other reasons, but can't think of them atm.

But what do you think?

 

[894tt3h9]

I'm not sure what I feel about capital punishment. We don't have it up here so I don't have very strong views for or against it. It seems to me that when a killer is put in jail it is the people who are being "protected" from future crimes (the population) have to pay to preserve this person's life for however many years. I don't really like the idea of that. I also don't like the idea that anyone feels they are justified in killing anyone just because they killed another person though I guess from a monetary standpoint it's better to just dispose of society's undesireables.

I can't say that I am for capital punishment. Depending on the crime, you could always just let the killer mingle with the other criminals in jail. They'll take care of each other. And by take care of each other, I mean murder each other.

 

[whytiger]

Self-defense is a given I think. There is such a thing as excessive force, however. You can't kill somebody because you feel threatened. They actually have to attack you.

On Capital punishment, I don't have a problem with executing people for heinous crimes in theory. In practice though, people can be wrongfully convicted, most people who are executed did not commit the worst crimes, they just had the worst lawyers, and, most people don't think of this, but a capital trial is very hard on the victims' families because of the evidence requirements and the lengthy appeals process. It makes it very difficult to move on. It's just unfair to everyone. Just put them away for life and have done with it.

There is also war. Consider that Dick Winters, of Band of Brothers fame, took on an entire company of Germany soldiers, gunning them down as they attempted to flank his position. For this he was celebrated. This same type of act, perpetrated on a group of civilians, such as the recent Aurora shootings is considered a heinous crime. Most people would agree that these situations are fundamentally different---gunning down a group of armed German soldiers intent on killing Americans vs. a group of people calmly watching a movie---and Winters act was one of heroism while Holmes' act was one of evil. War often falls into an ambiguous category but we usually consider that certain acts are "ok" in war and other acts are "not ok", hence "war crimes".

 

[Kgal]

There is a common belief in our culture that killing people because they're bad or because they've killed someone is acceptable and justifiable. Many of these reasons are "justified" according to various views:

1) Self defense (protect self or others)
2) punishment of crimes against humanity
3) potential to harm (although that reason may be questionable)


And there other reasons, but can't think of them atm.

But what do you think?

Killing someone because they are attacking with the intent to Kill another defenseless sentient being evokes a strong reactive murder response in me. This could range from plants - to animals - my pets/horses - children - other humans. If I encountered someone in the act of trying to murder another 'entity' - I'd probably try to stop them and if that meant killing them - then so be it.

Crimes against humanity? No - I do not agree with killing them.

Potential to harm? No. Who is to judge what they may or may not do?

Revenge or Retribution? Like that "eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth" line in the bible? No...absolutely not.

 

[Billy]

No. Killing is either wrong, or it is not.

 

[Tin Man]

I don't believe in retribution or murder as a valid way of punishment. I do however, believe that there are certain people who cannot be rehabilitated. Mass murderers who feel no remorse for their actions and freely admit they will kill again. What else can you do what that sort of person? In jail he's only wasting tax dollars and poses a threat to both the prisoners and guards.

 

[Billy]

I don't believe in retribution or murder as a valid way of punishment. I do however, believe that there are certain people who cannot be rehabilitated. Mass murderers who feel no remorse for their actions and freely admit they will kill again. What else can you do what that sort of person? In jail he's only wasting tax dollars and poses a threat to both the prisoners and guards.

Yes its probably ultimately inefficient not to kill them, but man does not live by efficiency alone. We must be the standard 1st before we can impose a standard. I believe putting prisoners to death even mass murders merely shames the rest of us in our complacency. If murder is illegal, it should fucking be illegal. Revenge killing by the state to satisfy that primal reptilian urge to cause pain and be territorial is PATHETIC and its even MORE pathetic to let the state do it, like people who shy away from killing an animal but love a good burger, its like are you fucking serious?! If I have children I will bring them out and force them to kill an animal in a hunting trip so they can see the sacrifice the animals are making for us to be well fed on their meat. Let the pain and blood of the animals marinate the meat, so we will have an awareness of whats actually happening.

 

[Kgal]

Yes its probably ultimately inefficient not to kill them, but man does not live by efficiency alone. We must be the standard 1st before we can impose a standard. I believe putting prisoners to death even mass murders merely shames the rest of us in our complacency. If murder is illegal, it should fucking be illegal. Revenge killing by the state to satisfy that primal reptilian urge to cause pain and be territorial is PATHETIC and its even MORE pathetic to let the state do it, like people who shy away from killing an animal but love a good burger, its like are you fucking serious?! If I have children I will bring them out and force them to kill an animal in a hunting trip so they can see the sacrifice the animals are making for us to be well fed on their meat. Let the pain and blood of the animals marinate the meat, so we will have an awareness of whats actually happening.

This too!

Yes. I agree there are people who are so injured they have totally lost their humanity - or they never were allowed to develop it - that they would be better off not here anymore. But we cannot make that decision - for we have no idea what it is - to BE them. For all one knows - any person who was motivated to commit violent crimes and murder may actually attain a sort of equanimity with themselves if left alone for a long time. They may come to realize the magnitude of murder and seek forgiveness - for themselves - from their higher power - and/or others. If we kill them - then they will not have a chance to do what it is they need to do. I for one am totally against capital punishment and I have been since I first learned about it. In the beginning it was "what if we have convicted the wrong person?". Now - it's not only that - but what RIGHT do we have to take a life in judgment?

Note to Billy: I have killed animals for meat many times because I made myself do it over the years. I've raised animals for the sole purpose of having said meat....and many years ago I quit eating pork. I admire your willingness to educate your potential children as to the reality of what it means to exist in this world.

 

[Kmal]

@Billy @Jacobi @Kgal For those who kill and will always kill, imprisonment in their current body would be more punishment than killing them anyway. Killing them would only make the judge or some people feel good, but we'd ulltimately be doing him a favor releasing them from their horrible curse. Therein lies a snag- should we be more merciful in killing them, or should we punish them to the maximum? Ultimately those kinds of people are the ones who need to be in prison, the tiny portion of the population who are an immediate threat and unable to be rehabilitated. Killing them would relieve them of their burden upon humanity, but it may be harmful to the psyche of some onlookers. Imprisonment would take a small amount of resources, if it were only a small population, and would be more punishment to the offender.
There may always be crazies who will kill no matter what for whatever sick reason, so I cant justify killing them because that's hypocritical. We should, however, allow them the option for execution. Generally, those sort of people are in a lot of pain.

 

[Kgal]

@Billy @Jacobi @Kgal For those who kill and will always kill, imprisonment in their current body would be more punishment than killing them anyway. Killing them would only make the judge or some people feel good, but we'd ulltimately be doing him a favor releasing them from their horrible curse. Therein lies a snag- should we be more merciful in killing them, or should we punish them to the maximum? Ultimately those kinds of people are the ones who need to be in prison, the tiny portion of the population who are an immediate threat and unable to be rehabilitated. Killing them would relieve them of their burden upon humanity, but it may be harmful to the psyche of some onlookers. Imprisonment would take a small amount of resources, if it were only a small population, and would be more punishment to the offender.
There may always be crazies who will kill no matter what for whatever sick reason, so I cant justify killing them because that's hypocritical. We should, however, allow them the option for execution. Generally, those sort of people are in a lot of pain.

I thought of that.... but from what I've seen - the psycopaths aren't in a lot of pain in the beginning of their sentence. They're just mad because they got caught. So they're not likely to ask for it. Still....I agree...it should be an option. The prison culture I've witnessed is all about judging the people behind bars - though - and the fact they "deserve" to be punished. So I doubt you'd get any prison warden to offer a "way out" in the form of suicide. In fact - that is the primary job of the mental health social worker clinician. Their real purpose for being there in the prisons is to make sure to keep the inmates from killing themselves just so they carry out their sentence(punishment). There is very very little therapeutic relationships available to the inmates.

And fwiw - I do not hold with the idea they are punished more by keeping them alive rather than execution. I do not agree with "punishment" in the first place. Restraining people from causing harm to others is the appropriate stance - if they can never be changed. Allowing a person to live out their life - in prison - is the only least harmful option. It gives the inmate a chance at "their salvation". It keeps the burden of murdering a person off of the prison employees. [shakes head] Can you imagine what it might be like to participate in the whole ordeal of killing a man NOT in self defense?

 

[JGirl]

killing in defense of self or family is the only way i can see it as being justifiable.
it's never ok. just justifiable.
the death penalty is stupid for so many reasons but let's just consider how long someone is actually on death row before they receive their death sentence. we have no saved a dime there have we...never mind the countless appeals etc.
in any case, these people should be put to work if they're going to eat up the tax dollars. am i suggesting forced unpaid labor? you betcha.

 

[Billy]

@Billy @Jacobi @Kgal For those who kill and will always kill, imprisonment in their current body would be more punishment than killing them anyway. Killing them would only make the judge or some people feel good, but we'd ulltimately be doing him a favor releasing them from their horrible curse. Therein lies a snag- should we be more merciful in killing them, or should we punish them to the maximum? Ultimately those kinds of people are the ones who need to be in prison, the tiny portion of the population who are an immediate threat and unable to be rehabilitated. Killing them would relieve them of their burden upon humanity, but it may be harmful to the psyche of some onlookers. Imprisonment would take a small amount of resources, if it were only a small population, and would be more punishment to the offender.
There may always be crazies who will kill no matter what for whatever sick reason, so I cant justify killing them because that's hypocritical. We should, however, allow them the option for execution. Generally, those sort of people are in a lot of pain.

I disagree with the premise that we need to torture criminals.

 

[Tin Man]

@Billy @Jacobi @Kgal For those who kill and will always kill, imprisonment in their current body would be more punishment than killing them anyway. Killing them would only make the judge or some people feel good, but we'd ulltimately be doing him a favor releasing them from their horrible curse. Therein lies a snag- should we be more merciful in killing them, or should we punish them to the maximum? Ultimately those kinds of people are the ones who need to be in prison, the tiny portion of the population who are an immediate threat and unable to be rehabilitated. Killing them would relieve them of their burden upon humanity, but it may be harmful to the psyche of some onlookers. Imprisonment would take a small amount of resources, if it were only a small population, and would be more punishment to the offender.
There may always be crazies who will kill no matter what for whatever sick reason, so I cant justify killing them because that's hypocritical. We should, however, allow them the option for execution. Generally, those sort of people are in a lot of pain.

I never said that I wanted to kill them as a form of retribution. I simply think it's a pointless drain on resources keeping them alive.

 

[Kgal]

I never said that I wanted to kill them as a form of retribution. I simply think it's a pointless drain on resources keeping them alive.

I agree the current system is pointless. No real way of changing their baseline behaviors due to lack of a therapeutic environment while simultaneously existing in a judging hostile environment paid for by our tax dollars is a total waste in every stretch of the imagination. :nod:

 

[Kmal]

[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION] There is no way around it if we are to do anything about it. Any sort of intervention is taking
away freedom.

I never said that I wanted to kill them as a form of retribution. I simply think it's a pointless drain on resources keeping them alive.

Whatever the motive is, there is death involved. Unless they explicitly ask to be executed, we are obligated to keep them alive so they have a chance to sort things out in their head.

 

[Billy]

@Billy There is no way around it if we are to do anything about it. Any sort of intervention is taking
away freedom.

Freedom is not life. You can lock someone away to defend the rest of society and IMO that is the humane thing to do, killing in the name of revenge on behalf of the state is disgusting.

 

[Kmal]

Freedom is not life. You can lock someone away to defend the rest of society and IMO that is the humane thing to do, killing in the name of revenge on behalf of the state is disgusting.

Some would rather be dead and should we not oblige them? Killing someone because they killed someone else is hypocritical of course, but locking some crazed minds up in a room by themselves, or even with people, is worse than death for them, so what about humanity?

 

[CindyLou]

Yes its probably ultimately inefficient not to kill them, but man does not live by efficiency alone. We must be the standard 1st before we can impose a standard. I believe putting prisoners to death even mass murders merely shames the rest of us in our complacency. If murder is illegal, it should fucking be illegal. Revenge killing by the state to satisfy that primal reptilian urge to cause pain and be territorial is PATHETIC and its even MORE pathetic to let the state do it, like people who shy away from killing an animal but love a good burger, its like are you fucking serious?! If I have children I will bring them out and force them to kill an animal in a hunting trip so they can see the sacrifice the animals are making for us to be well fed on their meat. Let the pain and blood of the animals marinate the meat, so we will have an awareness of whats actually happening.

I completely agree. However, (and I'm not trying to derail the thread...) I can see a fun hunting trip with the boys would be good but if you have a more sensitive child you are feeling you have to "force" you can get your point across with your more sensitive children by explaining that an animal had to die so they could live and to never ever waste meat because of the weight of the sacrifice. The ones that will have to be forced to kill will be able to process what you're saying.

 

[Billy]

I completely agree. However, (and I'm not trying to derail the thread...) I can see a fun hunting trip with the boys would be good but if you have a more sensitive child you are feeling you have to "force" you can get your point across with your more sensitive children by explaining that an animal had to die so they could live and to never ever waste meat because of the weight of the sacrifice. The ones that will have to be forced to kill will be able to process what you're saying.

I think that I would be able to get around the sensitivity issue by just making sure they know its going to be coming and preparing them in the years before hand whats to come. I would especially make any of my daughters do this...I wrote this out on FB too and my sister was like "omg what about the girls?! my daughter would be so upset" I almost wanted to be like well that's because you raised her for weakness and cowardice. Which is harsh, but not untrue. I am and have always been a very sensitive person, which is why I think shit like this up. I remember as a kid feeling strange about wondering where the meat was coming from, I researched it and watched all the videos on slaughter houses etc and it really fucked with my head, especially the sick horrible industrialized process of forcing these animals through valleys of steel and misery... Over time I came to accept death and understood that life feeds on life, it never bothered me, but it DID bother me being separated from the process. So I befriended a hunter (family friend) and made him take me deer hunting and I killed my 1st deer. And I cried for what I had done, but that's where I am sensitive, I was willing to accept that pain for what I have done and wore it on my soul like a badge in honor of the deer I had killed. It was the least I could do, accept that pain and guilt for my actions. It made me respect and accept reality for what it is. I think it was a very important lesson. I dont pretend that death is sterile and try to hide from it, its all around us, I embrace it, its the only sure fire way to exist in this world in an honest fashion IMO. We are raising generations of weaklings who are scared to hell of death, we insulate our children with pink and blue fuzzy stuffed animals and feed them meat that doesnt look like it was once alive... for christs sake have you ever seen how they make a chicken mcnugget at mcdonalds? The entire process is so revolting I will never eat that shit again. I dont believe telling them and letting them watch is enough... if animals are good enough for us to eat, then we should be good enough to get our hands dirty. Sensitive or not.

 

[barbad0s]

I agree with everything @JGirl said.

I would rather have people put to work than just punishing or killing them for the sake of punishing them, without any real benefit to the rest of society. Hurting people except in self defense is wrong, and once murderers are contained, the defense is taken care of.

I thought of that.... but from what I've seen - the psycopaths aren't in a lot of pain in the beginning of their sentence. They're just mad because they got caught. So they're not likely to ask for it. Still....I agree...it should be an option. The prison culture I've witnessed is all about judging the people behind bars - though - and the fact they "deserve" to be punished. So I doubt you'd get any prison warden to offer a "way out" in the form of suicide. In fact - that is the primary job of the mental health social worker clinician. Their real purpose for being there in the prisons is to make sure to keep the inmates from killing themselves just so they carry out their sentence(punishment). There is very very little therapeutic relationships available to the inmates.

That is interesting. I did not know that suicide was prohibited. I think that it should be allowed -- after all, it just means less tax dollars in supporting them. It's bizarre that the "forcing them to live out their sentence sentiment" would override the benefit of that. I wonder why.