[INFJ] Do we really have empathy?

[pzl2lxie81mc]

I don’t completely disagree with the author in that article. I do believe INFJs have the kind of the empathy where we literally feel what other people feel. Maybe not everything they feel, or all the time, but it does seem common to our personality. This kind of empathy can be harmful to us, causing burnout.

I’m trying to develop my cognitive empathy, which I think can help with the burnout. I find that if I’m conscious that what I’m feeling is what someone else is feeling, then I actually stop feeling what they’re feeling.

 

[Zola]

So far we have listed several reasons why we feel empathy and how we react to it:

1. To motivate us to help others
2. Simply because we "receive" their feelings without trying and then mirror them
3. For personal gain, such as admiration or manipulation

I would classify the first reason as good, the second as neutral, and the third as bad. Just my opinion.

 

[Zola]

When I was a child, I functioned as an autistic (in regards to empathy); not only did I feel little for others, I felt little drive to socialize or communicate with them. I was indifferent. In my late teens, my best friend explained how some of my behaviors made her feel, and it just clicked with me. I went on to develop the capacity for powerful empathy.

Lurk, we gotta talk. I was autististic as a child. They didn't have a word for it then. It was more like what they used to call "Asperger's Syndrome." I could've sworn I was INTJ. I started coming out of it at puberty, but the process took decades. Some say, you're autistic for life, but I pulled out of it with a lot of self-actualization.

Lurk, I'd like to know what your trajectory was. Do we need to start a thread? Autistic + INFJ = &^%$#@

 

[Lurk]

Lurk, we gotta talk. I was autististic as a child. They didn't have a word for it then. It was more like what they used to call "Asperger's Syndrome." I could've sworn I was INTJ. I started coming out of it at puberty, but the process took decades. Some say, you're autistic for life, but I pulled out of it with a lot of self-actualization.

Lurk, I'd like to know what your trajectory was. Do we need to start a thread? Autistic + INFJ = &^%$#@

I would love to do this. Let me think about what to write for a bit.

 

[Zola]

Lurk, thank you so much. For planning purposes, please go to "conversation" so we don't hijack this thread.

 

[periodictoblerone]

it seems to me that empathy is part of intuition. In our case this is also Se, which helps intuition a lot. therefore, probably, people consider us empathic because our Ni and Se work very well together. depending on the person's ability to capture the smallest details, it varies, and very much. but, since this is our brain, then, I think, it can be trained? I've heard that EQ is now much more valued than IQ, so...?
and that doesn't mean that people with strong S-function will have worse empathy - it, again, depends, and some life lessons could give a person with strong S-function way higher ability to empathize than person with N-function has

 

[Lurk]

So far we have listed several reasons why we feel empathy and how we react to it:

1. To motivate us to help others
2. Simply because we "receive" their feelings without trying and then mirror them
3. For personal gain, such as admiration or manipulation

I would classify the first reason as good, the second as neutral, and the third as bad. Just my opinion.

I think I've heard those with ASD described as knowing the music, but not the words; whereas those with PDs who lack empathy know the words, not the music. I've heard many INTPs say they logically understand a nasty situation; then, usually, they follow-up with, "But I have no sympathy for [CC, or XX, etc)," or something like that. It's creepy to hear.

 

[Tin Man]

Lurk, we gotta talk. I was autististic as a child. They didn't have a word for it then. It was more like what they used to call "Asperger's Syndrome." I could've sworn I was INTJ. I started coming out of it at puberty, but the process took decades. Some say, you're autistic for life, but I pulled out of it with a lot of self-actualization.

Lurk, I'd like to know what your trajectory was. Do we need to start a thread? Autistic + INFJ = &^%$#@

A brief reply: I was troubled by my lack of sadness when my father and grandmother died. Very troubled. I discussed it with my wonderful therapist, whom I respected very much. She simply stated that if I was concerned by my lack of emotion, I needn't worry. She also bluntly slammed down the real truth: You don't automatically love your family members, even first degree members. Love is never automatic; we all must earn it.

Related to OP: If you recognize your socially adaptive behaviors (mirroring, etc), and feel "off," or disconcerted, then you are probably normal, with normal empathy. People with no empathy don't reflect on such issues often; in my experience, they almost never do.

Empathy can be learned. When I was a child, I functioned as an autistic (in regards to empathy); not only did I feel little for others, I felt little drive to socialize or communicate with them. I was indifferent. In my late teens, my best friend explained how some of my behaviors made her feel, and it just clicked with me. I went on to develop the capacity for powerful empathy.

Just my story, for what it's worth.

Wow, ok. This is some pretty ablest bullshit. Autistic people have empathy. Same with INTJS. Just because there's a difficulty with identifying, and expressing emotions doesn't mean they are not there. Just as someone can fake showing emotion, and be completely insincere. In fact the most empathetic people I have met, happened to be autistic. They knew what it was like to be treated as something less than human, and showed a lot more support and care (far more than most NTs would show) for those in similar circumstances.

And you don't just pull out of being autistic. It's a neurological condition. You're brain is literally wired differently. Either you were autistic, and you were forced to warp yourself into something resembling "normal". Or you simply weren't autistic in the first place.

 

[Lurk]

Wow, ok. This is some pretty ablest bullshit. Autistic people have empathy. Same with INTJS. Just because there's a difficulty with identifying, and expressing emotions doesn't mean they are not there. Just as someone can fake showing emotion, and be completely insincere. In fact the most empathetic people I have met, happened to be autistic. They knew what it was like to be treated as something less than human, and showed a lot more support and care (far more than most NTs would show) for those in similar circumstances.

Whoa...! Where did you get that we don't agree? My goddaughter, J, has Asperger's -- an ENFP at that -- and she is unusually kind.

Some people do develop empathy as they age, rather, they learn how to access it. I need to reread my post to see if I misstated something.

And you don't just pull out of being autistic. It's a neurological condition. You're brain is literally wired differently. Either you were autistic, and you were forced to warp yourself into something resembling "normal". Or you simply weren't autistic in the first place.

No, it's not that simple. It is certainly possible to learn how to access your empathy, and improve social skills as well, with age. The brain continues to mature until ~ 25. And autism is a constellation of deficits, some almost normal, others profoundly crippling.

For example, girl J has few deficits in empathy, when she does miss the bus, it's because something knocked her off keel. She makes no damn sense when she tries to tell a story, she is extremely sensitive to stimuli, and she is obsessed with pokemon to the extent that her entire life is about Pokemon, and of course it's all she can talk about, as well. She doesn't seem to understand that people are bored because she can't imagine their side of the conversation. That is functionally a lack of empathy, but in no way does it affect her ability to feel love. Empathy is a broad term.

sorry for grammar

 

[Tin Man]

Whoa...! Where did you get that we don't agree? My goddaughter, J, has Asperger's -- an ENFP at that -- and she is unusually kind.

Some people do develop empathy as they age, rather, they learn how to access it. I need to reread my post to see if I misstated something.

"When I was a child, I functioned as an autistic (in regards to empathy); not only did I feel little for others" How am I misinterpreting this? You functioned as autistic in regards to empathy, because you didn't feel for others? In what other way can that be seen as, but ablest bullshit?

No, it's not that simple. It is certainly possible to learn how to access your empathy, and improve social skills as well, with age. The brain continues to mature until ~ 25. And autism is a constellation of deficits, some almost normal, others profoundly crippling.[/QUOTE]

First, that's a pretty messed up way to look at maturity. "Almost normal" according to whom?

Autism isn't just about a few traits. It's tied up in almost every part of an autists being. From the interpretation of sensations, to the processing of information, to the natural responses to social interaction. It's not just "constellation of deficits" (which is, again, another messed up way of looking at autism). You're seeing your goddaughter from purely your own perspective. You think someone can be pulled out of it, because you think it's not the right way to be.

And though, yes the brain is plastic in nature. It's not that plastic. Autistic people are born autistic. And they will die autistic.There's no cure, no recovery. It's a way of being. A natural one at that. And just because you don't understand, doesn't change that.

 

[Lurk]

"When I was a child, I functioned as an autistic (in regards to empathy); not only did I feel little for others" How am I misinterpreting this? You functioned as autistic in regards to empathy, because you didn't feel for others? In what other way can that be seen as, but ablest bullshit?

Okay, listen to me. Don't ever dare to dispute what I say about my own damn life. I'm very angry right now. "Ablest" makes no sense here. As a child, I did function as an individual with Autism, no I could not feel empathy. Yes, thanks to my INFP friend's insight, in my late teens, I was able to literally ask myself, "How would I feel if..."
That is all it took for me.

Autism isn't just about a few traits. It's tied up in almost every part of an autists being. From the interpretation of sensations, to the processing of information, to the . It's not just "constellation of deficits" (which is, again, another messed up way of looking at autism). You're seeing your goddaughter from purely your own perspective. You think someone can be pulled out of it, because you think it's not the right way to be.

Yes, that's what I meant by a constellation of traits. NO, my goddaughter shares a lot and she has spent months impatient psych working on skill development. No, I am seeing her from a range of perspectives, including her own.

And hell no, I would rather she not have Asperger's. Know why? Because she has been bullied every fucking day in school since pre-school. She isn't functional enough to work, attend college, or even keep friends because she is odd. She wants to die. Don'y give me that bullshit about Autism being "a different way of looking at the world," as if it is synonymous with a creative mind. You know the sociopathic fucktards I rail against? Well, when they were just little shits, they would have been the bully ringleaders. I've seen a pack of jocks circle her in gym and throw basketballs at her from all directions. So, watch yourself here. You never question me on this sort of issue. I know my own fucking life experiences.

And though, yes the brain is plastic in nature. It's not that plastic. Autistic people are born autistic. And they will die autistic.

Skills can be gained. Autism is a spectrum you can move along. I've seen it. Your experience is unique to you.

 

[Lurk]

@Tin Man

I know you are autistic yourself, so I tried not to explode. But disputing intimate details of my life and little girl's is way out of line. This stuff is extremely sensitive

 

[Tin Man]

Okay, listen to me. Don't ever dare to dispute what I say about my own damn life. I'm very angry right now. "Ablest" makes no sense here. As a child, I did function as an individual with Autism, no I could not feel empathy. Yes, thanks to my INFP friend's insight, in my late teens, I was able to literally ask myself, "How would I feel if..."
That is all it took for me.



Yes, that's what I meant by a constellation of traits. NO, my goddaughter shares a lot and she has spent months impatient psych working on skill development. No, I am seeing her from a range of perspectives, including her own.

And hell no, I would rather she not have Asperger's. Know why? Because she has been bullied every fucking day in school since pre-school. She isn't functional enough to work, attend college, or even keep friends because she is odd. She wants to die. Don'y give me that bullshit about Autism being "a different way of looking at the world," as if it is synonymous with a creative mind. You know the sociopathic fucktards I rail against? Well, when they were just little shits, they would have been the bully ringleaders. I've seen a pack of jocks circle her in gym and throw basketballs at her from all directions. So, watch yourself here. You never question me on this sort of issue. I know my own fucking life experiences.



Skills can be gained. Autism is a spectrum you can move along. I've seen it. Your experience is unique to you.

You see what you want to see. I have no more interest in talking to you.

I've had to same discussion too many times, and I'm too tired of the same old bigotry. It's nice you no longer hide it though.
I'd ask you to help your daughter to be proud of who she is. But I know you won't. You'll be just destructive influence in her life, one who'll force their way upon a child who needs support and acceptance. I do feel sorry for your goddaugher, but only because she has you for a godmother.

 

[Lurk]

You see what you want to see. I have no more interest in talking to you.

I've had to same discussion too many times, and I'm too tired of the same old bigotry. It's nice you no longer hide it though.
I'd ask you to help your daughter to be proud of who she is. But I know you won't. You'll be just destructive influence in her life, one who'll force their way upon a child who needs support and acceptance. I do feel sorry for your goddaugher, but only because she has you for a godmother.

FUCK YOU

How fucking dare you, You don't know a goddamm thing

You need to use some empathy right now.

 

[Happy Phantom]

I've had to same discussion too many times, and I'm too tired of the same old bigotry. It's nice you no longer hide it though.

Where is the bigotry in @Lurk s posts?

I'd ask you to help your daughter to be proud of who she is. But I know you won't. You'll be just destructive influence in her life, one who'll force their way upon a child who needs support and acceptance. I do feel sorry for your goddaugher, but only because she has you for a godmother.

As someone who knows lurk personally all of this is completely untrue. J is very well taken care of. Lurk and her mother have given J a very nice life after J’s mother was mentally unfit to care for J. How many people do you know who would do that?

 

[Icedream]

I don't know or care who's right, but the three of you reacted to eachother rather daftly. Put your feelings aside and be an empath

 

[infinite dreams]

You see what you want to see. I have no more interest in talking to you.

I've had to same discussion too many times, and I'm too tired of the same old bigotry. It's nice you no longer hide it though.
I'd ask you to help your daughter to be proud of who she is. But I know you won't. You'll be just destructive influence in her life, one who'll force their way upon a child who needs support and acceptance. I do feel sorry for your goddaugher, but only because she has you for a godmother.

What an utterly asinine thing to say.

I realize as an INTJ this will be difficult if not impossible for you to accept, but your “profound insights” into this particular situation are so laughably wrong as to veer into the patently absurd.

It’s nice of you to no longer hide that nasty, vitriolic attitude of yours, though.

 

[Icedream]

It’s nice of you to no longer hide that nasty, vitriolic attitude of yours, though.

agreed. Now, the rest of you should follow suit

 

[Lurk]

I archived the very personal slurs about a group of people Tin Man knows nothing about, lest the main point be lost.

Do we really have empathy?

You see what you want to see. I have no more interest in talking to you.

I've had to same discussion too many times, and I'm too tired of the same old bigotry. It's nice you no longer hide it though.
I'd ask you to help your daughter to be proud of who she is. But I know you won't. You'll be just destructive influence in her life, one who'll force their way upon a child who needs support and acceptance. I do feel sorry for your goddaugher, but only because she has you for a godmother.

 

[Icedream]

I already read his post.