Difference Between Type 5 Enneagram, and iNtuitioN | INFJ Forum

Difference Between Type 5 Enneagram, and iNtuitioN

Discussion in 'Enneagram' started by Saru Inc, Jun 14, 2011.

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  1. Saru Inc

    Saru Inc Schrödinger's Pussy
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    Alright, so I am far from being an enneagram/mbti expert, but I have noticed many many people on this forum, as well as others such as PerC, who believe they are type 5, when they clearly are not. I do know several people who *want* to be 5's, because they are more rare, and typically very intelligent. However, 5's are rare people. So when every single person on teh planet is a 5, something is wrong. The difference between MBTI and Enneagram as I personally see it is, MBTI is what you *are* at the core. Enneagram is how you navigate through the world, how you get there and your reasons for it. On he surface it sounds very similar to MBTI, but I seem them as different.

    Ni seeks to understand the world, because it becomes energized by creating outcomes and theories about how the future may or may not unfold.

    Type 5s seek to understand theworld, because they are terrified, essentially of being swallowed up by it. They tend to be extremely reclusive, withdrawing to postulate about the world etc.

    I really would appreciate some people, decently knowledged in MBTI/Ennea to either back up my stuff, or if it is incorrect, throw out your own theories and let us hear them. I see a bit of type 9's and type 1's who, ironically think they are a type 5. Now type 4 is pretty common for INFX, so you absolutely might be a type 4w5, but even then the more common ones I see around here are 6w5s.

    This is *not* aimed at any specific person, nor do I claim supremacy in my beliefs, or that they are correct. I've formed an opinion and I'm putting it out there for you to agree, or disagree. I'm not the best at putting my words/ideas on paper, so let me reiterate incase I didn't do it properly:

    Nx gains energy/enjoyment from learning about the world.

    type 5's do it out of fear. They NEED to understand the world in case like.... idk something goes wrong. I'm 2w3 so I wouldn't really be able to properly dissect how 5's think, I just know I see a whole bunch of 9's who think they are 5's


    Yeh.
     
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  2. bickelz

    bickelz BOINK

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    Kittayes! Idk but I'm 4w5. That seems fairly correct that 5s tend to withdraw to think about the world. I know that I do it quite a bit.

    You're enfj now?
     
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  3. Reon

    Reon Midnight's Garden

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    I'm rusty on both my MBTI and Enneagram knowledge but I'll take a swing since no one else has.

    I always thought that MBTI was the way in which a person interacts in the world and thinks about the world; essentially it's the glasses the person uses to see the world. Enneagram describes a predominant value in which the user has.

    I may be wrong but I thought Ni didn't exactly become energized by creating outcomes and theories, it just kind of happens. Ni tends to look at past events and the current situation, and guess the future. I'm not exactly sure if that's what you meant by energizing/being energized by creating outcomes.

    That sounds more like a phobic type 6. I thought type 5s weren't exactly scared but more motivated to be constantly prepared for anything. This is also affected by the instinctual subtype. Self preserving types might be seen more as afraid and terrified while sexual variants would want to connect with others about their knowledge. By nature, 5 tends to be reclusive though, but not extremely so.
    I think a Ni/Ne dom wouldn't really gain energy from learning about the world. It's kind of a natural state of being? If that makes sense. I'm supposed a type 5w6 but, alas, like I said, I'm out of practice.

    Edit: And tired. Very tired. lol
     
  4. OP
    Saru Inc

    Saru Inc Schrödinger's Pussy
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    What I mean by "gain energy" as in the opposite of being drained, for example: being stuck in details etc.

    And a 6 is essentially a 5, but for people. a 6 is scared to be overcome with world without anyone to support them.

    I see MBTI as WHO YOU ARE. the JCFs are HOW YOU SEE THE WORLD. So, when you combine all the lenses of how you see the world etc, you get who you are. The enneagrams are why you navigate, MBTI/JCF are how you navigate. So Two Fe doms, one an 8, and one a 2 are going to use the same ways to get somewhere perhaps, but will have differing reasons why.

    Maybe I shouldn't have said "become energized by." I just mean in the opposite of being drained by it. Like, when I can just *be* the community, I can relax, I have gained energy from using Fe, so I can just relax with this energy. I just feel at home.

    Still, if what I said leads you too into details just look at Nx versus type 5 as they are different, and many people think that N dom automatically means type 5, T dom means type 8, or F dom means type 2 automatically.


    Also: when I say creating outcomes, I'm just using a very generalized open area'd description of Nx
     
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  5. JGirl

    JGirl no chocolate flavored gum? wow

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    until today when i registered on this forum i didn't even know what enneagram was. i went to the site, took the test and it came up that i am a 5. after reading the description i can tell you that it couldn't have been more accurate. mind you, it's a free online test, and apparently there is a more comprehensive test if i want to pay for it. i don't care that much as it doesn't have any bearing on how i feel about myself.
     
  6. hush

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    I've actually noticed a similar occurrence, Saru, and sought to get to the bottom of it (my progress has been questionable, though). Heck, I'm still not even sure about myself, because although some aspects of 9 fit me, I'm not a terribly peaceful person at times - far too conflicted and drawn to extremes.

    5s are rare people?? I didn't know that. Is there a type, then, that's most common? I wasn't aware there were such statistics out there for the enneagram system, huh. I'll probably have to search for such data shortly, lol, otherwise the curiosity will kill me. :3

    Are 5s actually supposed to be "very intelligent"? I also wasn't aware that enneagram was linked to intelligence. I typically see intelligence more so as occurring on an individual basis, not as being to linked to whether or not someone fits one category or another - though many do seem to enjoy finding a correlation between intelligence and one group or another. Most often I can't see the merit in that, though, as there are too many different manifestations of intelligence to really be able to adequately measure it and link it to one thing or another. Perhaps type 5s are intelligent - it's likely though, that they're equally as intelligent as the other types, just that that intelligence shows itself differently and is similarly used in differing ways. Do people, though, really think that some types are more intelligent/rare than others, and consequently adhere to those types so as to make themselves appear more noteworthy, even though their judgments were based on misconceptions? If so, that's sad. :( What's the point of such a system if you don't use it to better understand yourself, your actions, motivations, etc.?

    Do you indeed see a bunch of 5s, though? Are you sure that they aren't, in fact, 5s? The only person who can make such a determination is the individual in question. Like I said, I have encountered some people confused about their type, but I didn't base that decision upon examining people who typed themselves as 5s and thinking to myself "they're probably 9/1...," I based that decision on hearing some people voice such inner confusion.

    At the end of the day, though, more so than any of this, I have to wonder if enneagram is a sufficiently reliable system, anyway - if it's worth fretting over. It's only a recently introduced model, made by imperfect humans, so it's bound to have imperfections of its own. Perhaps, anything that attempts to fit a dynamic human being into a little box should be looked at critically.
     
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  7. Thinkist

    Thinkist Regular Poster

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    I did some correalations, and as it turns out, Enneatype 5 has nothing to do with intuition. In fact, little of the Enneagram has to do with intuition. Enneatype 5 has these correalations:

    Most likely to be a 5: IT, INFJ
    Somewhat likely to be a 5: ETJ, IFP
    Least likely to be a 5: ISFJ, ETP, EF

    IxTx are most like a 5 since it naturally fits. INFJs with superb Ti also fit into this category. ISFJs, on the other hand, may be more likely to be some other type, most likely a compliant type.
    ExFx are least like a 5 because The Enneatype is almost opposite of the ExFx, who is more likely to be a Type 2 instead.
    ExTP are more likely to be some other type than 5, usually one of the assertive types.
     
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  8. bonfire

    bonfire Community Member

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    First of all, 5s are rare? Not sure about that. Btw, how can you be sure if someone is not a 5 online?
    Personally I think MBTI is like an engine room, Enneagram is the mechanic. Cognitive Functions are like your innate mental capacity or aptitude but it's kinda straight-jacketed and boxed-in. Enneagram is your motivation to make something out of them, like what parts to accelerate, what parts to tinker with and how much. The combination of two systems can cause a huge difference, that's why, I think, Enneagram matters to one's personality, and as a life dynamic, may matters more than MBTI type.

    Regarding difference between type 5 and iNtuition, I don't think there's a real correlation with each other though. A lot of 5s are sensors (mostly ISTPs, ISTJs and a few ISFx). Sensing 5s are more factual, detailed, and steadfast. They may tend to collects actual stuffs instead of abstract knowledge and ideas. You are right about 5s' motivation. 5s can easily feel overwhelmed and engulfed by the world. There's a sort of hypersensitivity to the outer stimuli especially feelings, and expectations of others. Sometimes it can feel like being in a pressure cooker when things are pressed down in all directions, bombarding. As a result, 5s may seem like they don't care but actually, they do notice much more than others realized. But that doesn't necessarily make them an iNtuitive though, at least in Jungian theory.
     
    #8 bonfire, Sep 30, 2018
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  9. charlatan

    charlatan Permanent Fixture

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    There are different theories of enneagram -- the most widely popularized ones are such that E5 and E4 probably related to N on the MBTI test, because they tend to the esoteric, intellectual, and so on. These presentations overemphasize the pursuit of knowledge as the defining feature of 5, when actually I'd say in teh more insightful versions, pursuit of knowledge is more a way of coping with the 5 condition, not the only one, and also, the knowledge isn't necessarily out of a curiosity for the abstract and theoretical characteristic of MBTI-N.

    There are, however, different concepts of N/S, where N doesn't beat S at being intellectual, and also the kinds of definitions of 5 I find most insightful emphasize that it is mostly about the alone-ness and feeling of having nothing to grasp, feeling like a foreigner in the world who has to find out how to deal with a foreign entity. I think House from the show is a 5 of the genuine kind -- who has a hard time finding meaning in things and has a kind of desperate thirst for something.
    This is parallel to 5's neighbor 4, except that case the meaning is more personalized/about one's significance.

    Plenty of 5s are very concrete. some of these are mystics, who grow tired of abstraction and actually see it as an intellectual game, probably tapping their negative connection with 7.
     
  10. charlatan

    charlatan Permanent Fixture

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    This topic is particularly meaningful to me, because traditional presentations of 6 are very dichotomies-MBTI-S. Seeking security over everything else.

    However, understood more broadly, the ultimate case of seeking security is seeking foundations and grounding for our knowledge.... vs stuff like seeking physical security.
    When a philosopher sort of worries that our knowledge is BS, that's perfectly compatible with 6-ish instincts.
     
  11. bonfire

    bonfire Community Member

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    Sorry, I've changed my mind about this comment. :sweat: I've learned more about Enneagram in the meantime and it's basically mental defense mechanism, which is something to develop and integrate, not so much of an engine room. Cognitive Functions and MBTI types are probably our truer potential which can be brought out if we're not so hindered by the fixation of the Enneagram. This is what I've learned so far, and is probably more accurate.
     
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  12. bonfire

    bonfire Community Member

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    Not exactly, negative 7s traits are restless and scattered, not realistic or being tired of the abstract. When I disintegratef to 7s I couldn't focus at all, couldn't even finish anything, even reading long paragraphs, frantically tried to do a lot of things to compensate feeling of incapability. I've had the reader's block for years and still struggling to get out of it. I can't frigging focus my attention enough to finish a book. Reading requires concentration which 5s in disintegration wouldn't have much anymore. I think 5s who got tired of the abstracts are probably the one moving towards 8s, and seeing the intellectual pursuit as passé and trite, which is good for them. It's a sign of their integration.
     
  13. bonfire

    bonfire Community Member

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    How Enneagram works is more dynamic than Cognitive Functions or dichotomies, so the fixation point in each MBTI types can manifest differently I think. I personally think most Enneagram books were written with the sensors in mind, which is understandable since most sample groups the authors encountered might have been sensors, as they are the majority. The way each type is portrayed is so sensor-ish (except maybe 4s which is portrayed clearly as being "intuitive" "creative", etc).
     
  14. charlatan

    charlatan Permanent Fixture

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    You are describing how a 5 looks when they actually move to 7, but I am describing how E5 is defined by a sense of insufficiency/barrenness/thirst that contrasts with the 7 which tends to run away from this feeling.
    This could manifest in a distaste for what they see as overly playful/intellectual games.

    What you describe as the 5's move to 8 is related, but basically I'd describe that more as the move from inaction to action than as about avoiding games.
     
  15. Ginny

    Ginny Idiot Savante

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    Do I understand it wrong then when I see my joyfully intellectual pursuits as 7-ish, following a path from idea to idea (yet staying w a particular topic/question) and just taking in the information without judgement? I saw this as 1 moving to 7, but since I also have a 7 in my tritype, couldn't it also be the 7 moving to 5?

    Somehow I associate 7-ishness generally with the energetic intensity of Ne.
     
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  16. bonfire

    bonfire Community Member

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    I don't think I can say for sure what the positive 7s' traits would manifest in 1s. But I think if you feel less inhibited by your own morality, rigidity, rules and judgement, and feel free to explore life and its exuberance without feeling guilty, then it's likely that you're moving towards 7s. Since 7s belongs to the head triad, they may enjoy intellectual pursuits but in a more realistic or practical way, I guess. (My dad is a 7 and he's pretty smart, but more like street smart) I agree that 7s' energy is correlated with Ne. Do you feel like you can relate more to ENxPs when you're happy and relaxed?

    Oh man, Tritype. I'm no expert in this but usually I'd rather stick with core fixation+wing because it could get so conflicting when you put the 2nd and 3rd numbers' integration and disintegration points into the equation. For example, I'm 541 and 7s is the the disintegration point of 5s but the integration point of 1s, and now I'm confused because I don't know if having 7s' traits is a good idea for me, lol. :tearsofjoy:
     
    #16 bonfire, Oct 6, 2018
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  17. Ginny

    Ginny Idiot Savante

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    I guess I have the same kind of confusion with 147. 1 disintegrates into 4, but integrates into 7, so it's hard to tell sometimes if I am just being my "normal" self or already, well...

    I actually hardly ever feel inhibited by my boundaries. They are actually more like principles I have set up for safety, integrity and fairness.

    And I am not being practical with any of the stuff I am indulging in when in that joyful mode. Sure, I am less inhibited (mostly getting me into trouble with people who cannot take it when I become brutally honest and recklessly amoral, for example) too, but only in a social setting. But the intellectual pursuits surround along all kinds of topics, from astrology and cosmoslogy to psychology, philosophy and philology. I don't see how it is practical besides broadening my horizons. But if you say so, sure, why not?
     
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  18. bonfire

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    I'm still an amateur so you may want to take what I said with a grain of salt. In general I think being interested in intellectual pursuits is more likely an iNtuitive trait. Enneagram explains more about your core motivation or lack thereof, not necessarily about what you do. For example, being 5s means one being driven to find knowledge, but not everyone who is intelligent or talks about ideas is a 5. Likewise, 7s, according to my interpretation, is driven by the thirst for joy, being open to experience, non-judgmental and accepting all life has to offer, but that doesn't mean 7s has to be about doing this and that in particular. Negative 7s are takers, while positive 7s are generous givers, so whatever one does according to 7s things like doing all and taking all feels like a stable state or just an impulsive escape. It has something to do with your mental, emotional, and spiritual reaction to the shifts in behaviors.
     
    #18 bonfire, Oct 6, 2018
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  19. Ginny

    Ginny Idiot Savante

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    Amateur or not, it doesn't mean that what you say cannot be profound or of importance. I'll think about what you said, regardless :)
     
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  20. charlatan

    charlatan Permanent Fixture

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    @Ginny, I think the basic difference between the 1 and 7 takes on idealism (1/7/4 are commonly associated with idealism in different ways) as I understand it is the 1's idealism seems to proceed more based on obligation/what the *correct* option to pick is to attain the idea, i.e. how things MUST be, whereas the 7 seems to see the ideal more in terms of "more more more"....how things COULD be so much more (hence why the 7 is head triad -- there's an anxiety on how to know when you're really supposed to be satisfied)....

    To have both these in the tritype would just mean you relate to both points of view, but to have 1 as core means you see it as the one truly obligatory neurotic need, and I think growth to 7 occurs when you see yourself having a more rounded off take towards that neurotic need, focusing less on the obligatory correctness and more on the exploratory thing. in one case the fact that things could be better is a source of restless enthusiasm, in the other it's a nagging sense of 'have I really done what I need to/should"
     
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