[PUG] Death Penalty / capital punishment

[The Jester]

Alright. I know there has been a thread on this, started by LadyINFJ, but I'd be reviving a thread that's months old.

Question: Why are you against or for capital punishment?

I'm against, because:

1) It has been proven that death penalty does not induce fear in criminals who are about to commit an act.
There are multiple reasons for this:

a. Bounded rationality: criminals do not think about the consequences of their acts, only about the elements of the act itself.
Like, a burglar would not think about the chance he'll get caught, but rather about his plan on how to break in.

b. Superoptimism: a lot of criminals believe they'll never face the negative consequences of their acts.

c. Situational murderers: when I was reading Albert Camus' essay on the guillotine, he said that most of the time,
criminals didn't know beforehand they were going to commit a murder.
This seems pretty logic when we think about the cases of angry partners who kill their cheating lover.

d. The 'example'-effect: How can capital punishment set an example if it's done behind closed doors?
Well, if we use the example-argument, we should broadcast in live on television, and force everyone to watch it!

2) Revenge: people often wanted revenge for the horrible crimes that the criminal has committed.
Does revenge help?
For the victim: no, victims rather want to be recognized as a victim and be listened to.
Unfortunately, the system focuses all its attention on the offender, instead of on the victim.

Since I do not believe in vengeance, and I don't just 'want to see blood flow', I believe that revenge is a bad argument.

Conclusion: I'm against capital punishment.

Thoughts please.

 

[Avva]

Against. Simply because we don't have the right to take someone's life as a 'punishment', we don't have the right to take someone else's life period

And I do believe in revenge, but there are far better ways

 

[just me]

Other side for me. Guy breaks into your house and overpowers you, ties you up, gags you, then rapes your wife and two little girls in front of you before he kills them; someone comes by and interrupts the situation so the guy leaves after he kills you. Proof positive without a shadow of doubt the guy they arrest is the one that committed the heinous acts.

Those against capital punishment want to put the man in prison, feed him, house him, give him a life in a prison system at taxpayer expense to include meals, housing, airconditioning and heat, sanitation, library, computer, free healthcare, and the likes.

Things get really bad out in the real world, just kill someone and you have it made. You have people stand up for your rights. You appeal with the parole board in ten years, get out, and kill again. Back to jail again.

I do not see capital punishment as vengeance. I do not see it as a deterrent. The man does not care about the rights of others? He should lose his rights when he decided to kill, rape, and murder.

Guy reads an ad on the internet for a car for sale. Gets his pistol, emails for a meet, then premeditated murders the man and drives off with his care, leaving behind a family with no husband or father. Take care of him, too?

Of course, most would not want to do anything unreasonable to this poor person that had a bad childhood and never could make decisions for themselves. Maybe they can kill someone important enough to get a speedy trial in less than five years. As far as I am concerned, those that commit heinous acts to others should have no rights; they did not concern themselves with the rights of others. They are breathing good air others could use. They are drinking good water others should use. My empathy stops at a certain point. If this makes me unpopular among my peers, then so be it. At least I can stand up for what I believe. Too many people are not concerned with anything but their own personal self.

When we "reform" these people and put them back on the streets and they kill again, I think the new blood is on our hands, too.

 

[The Jester]

Hmm.

I don't think most criminals like being put in jail
Yea, you have free meals, but at what a cost?
Your freedom.

If we wouldn't have any care in the world when we're put into prison, why aren't the crime rates higher in countries where there's no death penalty?

 

[arbygil]

I think in certain instances you do need the death penalty, because there is no greater punishment. Life without parole is bad, but you eventually get used to the life. You yearn for life on the outside, but you recognize that you have a new life in prison. Prison can be (is) horrifically demoralizing and truthfully, once you get out, there is no place for you in society (no one hires you, no one lets you live near them, no one socializes with you...etc).

But that's my spiel for prison reform.

As for the death penalty, if the crime is horrendous enough, and the person is completely unrepentant for the act, then prison won't change or save him. It's not a question of revenge at that point; it's whether or not the other prisoners would be safe or if it's right/morally just to keep someone in solitary confinement for the rest of his life.

I think some people deserve the death penalty. Not for revenge, but for the message it sends - that this person did something so heinous that he (or she) will have his or her ultimate rights taken from them.

But I think the United States has the wrong idea about the death penalty, and we execute too many people for the wrong reasons. I think it's our secret sin - and I think we do it because our prisons are overcrowded and it's too expensive. Prisons are big, big businesses but it costs too much to house and take care of prisoners and we don't have enough taxpayer money to fund them properly.

 

[The Jester]

I think some people deserve the death penalty. Not for revenge, but for the message it sends - that this person did something so heinous that he (or she) will have his or her ultimate rights taken from them.

So you agree then that, if we go for the 'setting an example'-effect, we should broadcast it live so everyone sees it?

 

[magister343]

I do not oppose capital punishment in theory, but do oppose the way it is handled in the US.


If it is done, it should be done in public within, say, 2 years of the conviction. It is not an example and thus not a deterrent unless it happens both publicly and quickly enough that the memory of the offense has not let left the public consciousness. Great care should be taken to make sure that the case can be appealed quickly, but I'd suggest that death warrants expire and sentences be automatically commuted to life in prison if not signed by the governor who was in office when the crime occurred.


The Death Penalty should never be more expensive than life in high security prison.

There should be a preponderance of evidence both for guilt and for the crime having been committed out of malice.

 

[Gaze]

I do not oppose capital punishment in theory, but do oppose the way it is handled in the US.


If it is done, it should be done in public within, say, 2 years of the conviction. It is not an example and thus not a deterrent unless it happens both publicly and quickly enough that the memory of the offense has not let left the public consciousness. Great care should be taken to make sure that the case can be appealed quickly, but I'd suggest that death warrants expire and sentences be automatically commuted to life in prison if not signed by the governor who was in office when the crime occurred.


The Death Penalty should never be more expensive than life in high security prison.

There should be a preponderance of evidence both for guilt and for the crime having been committed out of malice.

I oppose capital punishment because of the reasons already mentioned but i agree that if it is going to be used, it should be handled in the way @magister343 describes. You either commute the sentence almost immediately after they've been tried, as long as they receive a fair trial and the evidence against them is full proof, or sentence them to life in prison.

 

[The Jester]

I do not oppose capital punishment in theory, but do oppose the way it is handled in the US.


If it is done, it should be done in public within, say, 2 years of the conviction. It is not an example and thus not a deterrent unless it happens both publicly and quickly enough that the memory of the offense has not let left the public consciousness. Great care should be taken to make sure that the case can be appealed quickly, but I'd suggest that death warrants expire and sentences be automatically commuted to life in prison if not signed by the governor who was in office when the crime occurred.


The Death Penalty should never be more expensive than life in high security prison.

There should be a preponderance of evidence both for guilt and for the crime having been committed out of malice.

Wonderful.
I didn't think anyone could make me look different towards the concept, but you made me
Thanks.

 

[slant]

I am for the death penalty for economic reasons. I think we should just kill everyone who gets a life sentence. Anyone who's going to be in there for twenty years or so who's already like, ninety, we should kill, and I think that suicide in the prison system should be encouraged.

 

[Reon]

Alright. I know there has been a thread on this, started by LadyINFJ, but I'd be reviving a thread that's months old.

Question: Why are you against or for capital punishment?

I'm against, because:

1) It has been proven that death penalty does not induce fear in criminals who are about to commit an act.
There are multiple reasons for this:

a. Bounded rationality: criminals do not think about the consequences of their acts, only about the elements of the act itself.
Like, a burglar would not think about the chance he'll get caught, but rather about his plan on how to break in.

In actuality, most criminals actually fear being caught. It's kind of a fallacy. You don't notice the individuals who do not commit a crime because of the criminal ramifications. You only notice the guys that do. Also, to get a death sentence, you have to do something a little more intense than burgalary.

b. Superoptimism: a lot of criminals believe they'll never face the negative consequences of their acts.

Some criminals think this way, yes. So, why exactly is this a reason against capital punishment? (I do really think I'm missing the point)

c. Situational murderers: when I was reading Albert Camus' essay on the guillotine, he said that most of the time,
criminals didn't know beforehand they were going to commit a murder.
This seems pretty logic when we think about the cases of angry partners who kill their cheating lover.

How many situational murderers actually get the death sentence? I seriously don't know. Is the number really that high?

d. The 'example'-effect: How can capital punishment set an example if it's done behind closed doors?

That's a problem, yes. By the time someone is executed, most people just don't even care about that person anymore. My main issue with execution is that it's so expensive as well as actually keeping people in jail.

Well, if we use the example-argument, we should broadcast in live on television, and force everyone to watch it!

We should also beat our kids with bats to make sure they never cheat on tests.....Negative reinforcement sucks but none the less, negative behaviors need to be dealed with

2) Revenge: people often wanted revenge for the horrible crimes that the criminal has committed.
Does revenge help?
For the victim: no, victims rather want to be recognized as a victim and be listened to.
Unfortunately, the system focuses all its attention on the offender, instead of on the victim.

Since I do not believe in vengeance, and I don't just 'want to see blood flow', I believe that revenge is a bad argument.

Conclusion: I'm against capital punishment.

Thoughts please.

I must admit, revenge is a part of it. If I were raped and such, even with people being their for me, I'd still want the guy or girl to burn. My line of thought is that if a person is crazy enough to get the death sentence (I'm thinking more serial killer and such) then I don't think it's safe even for the prison mates and/or guards to be around that particular person. Criminals are still people and some of them haven't even committed relatively serious crimes and yet are placed with the same individual who is very violent, dangerous, and actually enjoys prison culture.

 

[54192&#cmy]

I am against it. I am against all killing no matter what the cause. I know that no matter what we do someone is dead. There is a diversity to death. Everyone will die at some point. No matter what we are all dead. We will meet our end in many different ways. Soldiers die a horrible death at times. And so do the civilians who are killed by "accident" by the soldiers. Some die of cancer. Some of Aids. Some get hit by a car, or bus. People die in interesting ways. And some are murdered. Every death causes pain. Even when the prisoner has been killed he had a family. He has a mother and a father. Maybe a brother of sister. Maybe a Grandma and Grandpa. He had a life too.

No amount of killing is going to bring anyone back. It's not going to solve anything. You may feel better for a little while. But nothing has changed for you really. The ones you loved are still gone. And the rest of your life you will feel an emptiness inside. If you could have forgiven and turned the heart of the man who killed your spirit will be lifted. We should be more concerned with turning out citizens who do not feel the need to kill. The prison system should be used to reeducate and transform lives. Not end them. Prisoners when they are freed are still ex cons. There debt to society in never paid because for the rest of their lives they are going to pay for their crimes with a criminal record. That will prevent them from getting a job and making a honest living. In the end we are not forgiving them and showing them the way. Society is the cause of all it's own problems. And our society in America frankly sucks...

 

[The Jester]

In actuality, most criminals actually fear being caught. It's kind of a fallacy. You don't notice the individuals who do not commit a crime because of the criminal ramifications. You only notice the guys that do. Also, to get a death sentence, you have to do something a little more intense than burgalary.

But they don't think about the consequences during the act.
Sure, they can fear being caught afterwards.
You are right however that you don't notice the individuals who don't commit a crime, and prison shall induce some fear into people.

Some criminals think this way, yes. So, why exactly is this a reason against capital punishment? (I do really think I'm missing the point)

If you think that you'll never get caught, death penalty won't induce fear.
I know that it's just some criminals who think this way,
but there aren't really any independent variables that you can apply to all criminals.
So it's best to include multiple.

How many situational murderers actually get the death sentence? I seriously don't know. Is the number really that high?

Hmm, I'm not sure actually. I think I was a bit influenced by availability bias when I thought of that

We should also beat our kids with bats to make sure they never cheat on tests.....Negative reinforcement sucks but none the less, negative behaviors need to be dealed with

What does that have to do with it?
I was making trying to make a point, that we don't really set examples by not doing it public, and that that argument isn't worth much.

 

[TheLastMohican]

Within the U.S. system, I'm against capital punishment, simply because it costs more.

That's not to say that I have in mind a better system that would negate my other reservations.

• At a fundamental, emotional level, I dislike the idea of a state being able to kill any of its citizens in cold blood. That power will almost inevitably be abused.
• I dislike the uncertainty. For every death row inmate exonerated with DNA evidence, there may be a dozen innocent ones who lacked that appeal. Juries are fallible, and proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" has been wrong in many cases.
• I dislike justification by retribution. What is gained by killing? Does it satisfy bloodlust? I don't think that is a healthy attitude to be promoted by the government. I think a criminal justice system should be designed to prevent crime and rehabilitate criminals, not to "get even" with them.
• I also find justification by example unconvincing. Want real examples? Try a good flogging in the British navy. Or try cutting off a thief's hand, a slanderer's tongue, and a murderer's head. Make it all a public spectacle; horrify people. If you're not willing to "go medieval," then don't try to call the death penalty an example-setter, because it's not working very well.

Besides, solitary confinement is pretty bad. There is an attractive logic to it: if a person is violent around people, then keep that person walled off from people. The practical solution doubles as a punishment, yet without doing anything for which the prisoner cannot be later compensated in the even of a wrongful conviction. (No amends can be made to a dead person.)

 

[enfp can be shy]

I'm very happy to see that the idea about no death punishment is spreading wider, on its way to become the international norm. Think about it, just a couple of centuries ago this would sound preposterous.

My main reason is that killing people does not resolve the problem in the first place. It is very short-sighted to expect that you solved anything by removing the "bad guy". There will be another "bad guy" to replace him/her; we better try to communicate our best with such people and understand what exactly went wrong with them, and try our best to help others who potentially could repeat this way.

 

[Reon]

But they don't think about the consequences during the act.
Sure, they can fear being caught afterwards.
You are right however that you don't notice the individuals who don't commit a crime, and prison shall induce some fear into people.



If you think that you'll never get caught, death penalty won't induce fear.
I know that it's just some criminals who think this way,
but there aren't really any independent variables that you can apply to all criminals.
So it's best to include multiple.

Oh! Okay, I get it now. I agree, that's a issue.

Hmm, I'm not sure actually. I think I was a bit influenced by availability bias when I thought of that

If I have time later, I'll try to find some stats. I think they'll be helpful to the thread at large.

What does that have to do with it?
I was making trying to make a point, that we don't really set examples by not doing it public, and that that argument isn't worth much.

I was probably a bit unclear with my sarcasm. Basically my point was that knowing the consequences of a action is enough. I've never seen someone kicked out of school for plagiarizing but I know what to expect when I do. I don't necessarily need the negative behavior shown to me in order for me to behave accordingly, I suppose. The concept of having a death sentence is enough to deter some criminals and flooding on the air ways as a mandatory watch might instill some added fear into a few people, but I think most people already have that fear in the first place. I do see your point though.

 

[acd]

I can understand how someone would support the death penalty. There have been times I've read or watched something on the news that was truly stomach turning.. and I've said, "People like that shouldn't live." Then I check my anger.. and remember that the death penalty actually ends up costing the state more in the long run than it would to keep the convict alive and imprisoned for life.

And, even if that weren't the case, there is always a chance that the person is wrongfully accused and convicted of the crime... and an innocent person would be executed. And then aside from that-- Despite those primal rages I feel in regards to those who commit heinous crimes.. I don't enjoy the idea of living in a culture where we just kill away our problems. People who commit these crimes have serious issues, mentally or physiologically that affect their behaviors. It's a sickness.

I think we need to understand more about that than executing them. I guess it comes down to whether you think executing them is based upon vengeance or justice?
I don't believe it is based on justice.

 

[Gaze]

I can understand how someone would support the death penalty. There have been times I've read or watched something on the news that was truly stomach turning.. and I've said, "People like that shouldn't live." Then I check my anger.. and remember that the death penalty actually ends up costing the state more in the long run than it would to keep the convict alive and imprisoned for life.

And, even if that weren't the case, there is always a chance that the person is wrongfully accused and convicted of the crime... and an innocent person would be executed. And then aside from that-- Despite those primal rages I feel in regards to those who commit heinous crimes.. I don't enjoy the idea of living in a culture where we just kill away our problems. People who commit these crimes have serious issues, mentally or physiologically that affect their behaviors. It's a sickness.

I think we need to understand more about that than executing them. I guess it comes down to whether you think executing them is based upon vengeance or justice?
I don't believe it is based on justice.

Agree. The words vengeance and justice are too easily confused or too often used interchangeably.

 

[aeon]

I do not value capital punishment because:

• Capital punishment is not a deterrent for people as it concerns comitting crimes.
• It costs taxpayers more money to execute people versus incarcerating those people for the period of their natural lives.
• I don't value the killing of human beings, whether in the name of money, passion, medicine, or the law, and I value consistency as it concerns the law in this regard.
• My sense of human rights is such that said rights are inviolable - as rights, they cannot be granted or taken away, by or to/from anyone.
• I recognize the prudence and wisdom of the idea that one may choose to hate the sin, but love the sinner.
• It has been demonstrated via DNA evidence that innocent men and women have died in the name of Justice by the hand of the State - I consider this the most gross violation of the principles on which this nation of the United States was founded, and as such, I do not value it.
• I value the sanctity of human life.
• Errors exist within the judicial process, and that process is biased as it concerns race, sex, gender, and social class, among other factors - as such, I consider capital punishment to be a punishment that disfavors certain individuals as compared and contrasted with others - this violates the provision of equal treatment under the law.
• Capital punishment has been used by human beings to systematically eliminate marginalized groups -

 

[The Jester]

I love all the input you guys have made.
Thanks!
Good input from both sides