Death & Dying

[Free]

Is this a joke? Are we not supposed to answer that truthfully?

Whoops.

lol. I've always been bluntly honest about this too. Though mine took it in a more matter of fact way, perhaps because he had already been exposed to death before. It is scary for a child to realize their own mortality, but it's better than a lie in my eyes. I also was honest about Santa as well. Oopsie.

 

[#@&5&49]

This reminded me of organ donor card which I need to get. I would like to donate all the organs which are possible to donate and then to be cremated.

Too bad that throwing ashes to ocean is illegal here, I find it beautiful somehow.

I like the idea of being an organ donor also. I also like the idea of donating my body to science. I wonder if it's possible to do both. The process of donating a body to science is interesting. I'm sure it's different depending on where you live. Apparently you fill out the forms (of course) and I think the university (whichever ones accept bodies, not all medical schools do) will come and get the body (with distance restrictions). People who are wanting some sort of ceremony don't get the body back for a few weeks, and I'm sure no one would want to see it after its returned. I think if I went that route, I wouldn't want my body returned - they can have it. But I like the idea of helping to further scientific knowledge that may help others in the future.

 

[#@&5&49]

I wish we were free enough here in the US to purchase our own dignified way out (barbies and benzos) without the sanctions/involvement of doctors. Death is easy, healing is hard. Do we need to send people to years of medical school just so they can switch on a death drip? I don't like how it is working out in places like the Netherlands. It is disturbing. I definitely want a good/dignified death. I also don't want my death to be medicalized/institutionalized via the involvement of physicians and death panels.

People should have the right to choose. We choose to end other animal's sufferings, but we can't make that choice ourselves? What kind of fuckery is that? It should be done in a way that is as humane and quick a way as possible though. Starvation seems barbaric, but if the person is comatose that is quite a grey area. There are better methods.

I don't know how it's handled in other countries, but in the states, the "Death with Dignity" law is only available in Oregon, Washington and Vermont. California just passed the "Death with Dignity" law but I don't think it's in place yet.

So, if you happen to live in any of the other states, your options are limited. Medicating terminally ill people and starving them until they die is horrific. It's hard to believe that is even an option given to people, but it is, and no one wants to talk about that either.

Watching a terminally ill person slowly die when you know there is a more peaceful and less painful way to go is just as excruciating as dying a slow painful death, maybe even worse. Unfortunately the taboo behind discussing death and dying helps keep outdated ways of handling terminal illnesses intact and running status quo.

 

[#@&5&49]

Nurse Charged With Assisting In Her Father's Death (NPR July 2013)

A Philadelphia nurse has been charged with assisted suicide for allegedly providing her 93-year-old father with a lethal dose of morphine.
Authorities say Barbara Mancini, 57, told a hospice nurse and a police officer on Feb. 7 that she provided a vial of morphine to her father, Joe Yourshaw, to hasten his death.

Mancini and her attorneys acknowledge she handed the medication to her father, but maintain she never said she intended to help him end his life and was only trying to help her father ease his pain — an act they say is legally protected, even if it causes death.

Mancini is being charged under a statute common in many states that makes it illegal to assist in suicide. Other cases involving end-of-life situations have been prosecuted under these laws, although such cases may be dwindling — and when defendants are convicted, there's a tendency these days to let them off with light sentences, such as probation.

Three states have statutes explicitly allowing assisted suicide under limited conditions — Oregon, Washington and Vermont. Montana allows it under a 2009 state supreme court decision, and attempts to overturn it have failed.

A spokesman for the attorney general said she would have no comment on the case, but provided the police complaint.

Kathryn Tucker, director of legal affairs and advocacy for Compassion & Choices, called Mancini's prosecution "an outlier."

Tucker points out that while the U.S. Supreme Court in 2009 declined to recognize a constitutional right to assistance in dying, it did say that a patient "has a right to as much medication as they need, even if it hastens the time of death."
Tucker says "that is now a widely recognized holding."

The case against Barbara Mancini was dropped, but not after putting her through the agony of prosecuting her while she grieved her fathers death. Barbara is now a public speaker and activist supporting "Assisted Suicide" for terminally ill patients.

 

[Skarekrow]

It is my personal belief that David Bowie took a terminal cocktail that ended his life.

I’ve been around a lot of people (including my Father) who died of cancer…it could have been a complication from the cancer that caused a sudden death, but I just don’t see him going out like that.
He had his 69th birthday 3 days previous (which the above picture was from), and then released his final album which he said was his parting gift to his fans…you just don’t die like that from cancer…you waste away to nothing and then pass.
Kudos to him (if it’s true), I just wish the stigma attached with assisted suicide or death with dignity wasn’t there.

 

[PintoBean]

I like the idea of being an organ donor also. I also like the idea of donating my body to science. I wonder if it's possible to do both. The process of donating a body to science is interesting. I'm sure it's different depending on where you live. Apparently you fill out the forms (of course) and I think the university (whichever ones accept bodies, not all medical schools do) will come and get the body (with distance restrictions). People who are wanting some sort of ceremony don't get the body back for a few weeks, and I'm sure no one would want to see it after its returned. I think if I went that route, I wouldn't want my body returned - they can have it. But I like the idea of helping to further scientific knowledge that may help others in the future.

This is actually a hard one for me to stomach. I know a few doctors who said they would never consider it after seeing the treatment of bodies donated to science. One recounts seeing med students play catch with a cadaver's heart. I know that whatever one's orientation is spiritually, it is *just a body.* But it's hard to think of a bunch of 20-somethings scrutinizing and joking about my withered bits and bobs. And morbid jokes do abound in these situations just because it makes the whole uncomfortable thing easier. Human nature, can't really blame folks for trying to get through their day with a few laughs. But this is the house I've lived in for nearly 40 years, and I hope to live in it a while longer. I don't relish the thought of it being sliced, chopped, frozen, unfrozen and likely mocked for 6-8 months. What can I say, I'm sentimental! Not knocking donation as a goal (in fact, I think it's a good goal to have), I just find it personally difficult and will probably just opt for cremation instead.

 

[#@&5&49]

I’ve been around a lot of people (including my Father) who died of cancer…it could have been a complication from the cancer that caused a sudden death, but I just don’t see him going out like that.
He had his 69th birthday 3 days previous (which the above picture was from), and then released his final album which he said was his parting gift to his fans…you just don’t die like that from cancer…you waste away to nothing and then pass.
Kudos to him (if it’s true), I just wish the stigma attached with assisted suicide or death with dignity wasn’t there.

I wish that stigma wasn't there also. I also wish for people to have choices regarding their own death when faced with terminal illnesses. Ions ago when they first made the laws that are still in effect, people were dying much younger than they are now, from diseases that are preventable today. I don't think anyone planned on so many people living as long as they are these days.

Offering people who are facing terminal illnesses more humane options regarding their own death is just a compassionate option. It is no picnic watching someone you love slowly die from a terminal illness. It'll make you want to slap people into awareness when you know there are more humane options that are not offered because the state you live in refuses to recognize the outdated inhumanity in their own laws.

 

[Skarekrow]

I wish that stigma wasn't there also. I also wish for people to have choices regarding their own death when faced with terminal illnesses. Ions ago when they first made the laws that are still in effect, people were dying much younger than they are now, from diseases that are preventable today. I don't think anyone planned on so many people living as long as they are these days.

Offering people who are facing terminal illnesses more humane options regarding their own death is just a compassionate option. It is no picnic watching someone you love slowly die from a terminal illness. It'll make you want to slap people into awareness when you know there are more humane options that are not offered because the state you live in refuses to recognize the outdated inhumanity in their own laws.

Totally agree!
I fully intend to take full advantage of my medical knowledge if assisted suicide isn’t available.
I will most likely die of cancer, it is quite prevalent in my family on both side…it’s just a matter of time.
Not that I wouldn’t fight it if it were at a point to justifiably fight, just saying that many people prolong their suffering not their life - there is a big difference.

 

[#@&5&49]

Totally agree!
I fully intend to take full advantage of my medical knowledge if assisted suicide isn’t available.
I will most likely die of cancer, it is quite prevalent in my family on both side…it’s just a matter of time.
Not that I wouldn’t fight it if it were at a point to justifiably fight, just saying that many people prolong their suffering not their life - there is a big difference.

Its quite interesting that drug companies seem to promote and encourage that "prolonging suffering vs. prolonging life" attitude. Why wouldn't they when cancer treatments cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. There are cancer centers cropping up on every corner, why, because its financially lucrative. I can't help but think drug companies and treatment centers have a vested interest in keeping the "Death with Dignity" law from being passed and basically keeping people sick. Seriously, who makes money if people are healthy?

 

[#@&5&49]

This is actually a hard one for me to stomach. I know a few doctors who said they would never consider it after seeing the treatment of bodies donated to science. One recounts seeing med students play catch with a cadaver's heart. I know that whatever one's orientation is spiritually, it is *just a body.* But it's hard to think of a bunch of 20-somethings scrutinizing and joking about my withered bits and bobs. And morbid jokes do abound in these situations just because it makes the whole uncomfortable thing easier. Human nature, can't really blame folks for trying to get through their day with a few laughs. But this is the house I've lived in for nearly 40 years, and I hope to live in it a while longer. I don't relish the thought of it being sliced, chopped, frozen, unfrozen and likely mocked for 6-8 months. What can I say, I'm sentimental! Not knocking donation as a goal (in fact, I think it's a good goal to have), I just find it personally difficult and will probably just opt for cremation instead.

I can totally understand your point of view. Its nice to have choices though; donate, not donate, cremation, burial, etc. The decisions are actually a bit overwhelming. I do know though if some twenty something med student tossed my heart around in a jokingly manner, I might haunt them in a jokingly manner :becky:

 

[Free]

I completely agree that everyone should have the right to choose when they go and how they want to go. I think it's a basic human right that should be given the proper attention from our governments. There is so much stigma attached, and I think it's the grief and loss experienced and/or feared by the survivors that promote this as well as religious and philosophical reasons, in that they want as much time with them as possible and delay the inevitable. Though I understand this so very much, I also disagree with it. I have lost too many loved ones, some suddenly and others slowly. The ones that I had time to say goodbye to, I ultimately realized how selfish it is to keep them alive, and either in pain or drugged up, just so I could hold their hand till they stop breathing. And even though I wished for an opportunity to say goodbye to the those I've lost abruptly, I am at least glad that they did not have to linger here, stuck somewhere between life and death while their loved ones mourn. I have been at the bedside of countless patients and their families as they've passed and it made me realize that I would want nothing more than the decision of when and how to die to be in my hands alone when the time comes.

 

[#@&5&49]

I completely agree that everyone should have the right to choose when they go and how they want to go. I think it's a basic human right that should be given the proper attention from our governments. There is so much stigma attached, and I think it's the grief and loss experienced and/or feared by the survivors that promote this as well as religious and philosophical reasons, in that they want as much time with them as possible and delay the inevitable. Though I understand this so very much, I also disagree with it. I have lost too many loved ones, some suddenly and others slowly. The ones that I had time to say goodbye to, I ultimately realized how selfish it is to keep them alive, and either in pain or drugged up, just so I could hold their hand till they stop breathing. And even though I wished for an opportunity to say goodbye to the those I've lost abruptly, I am at least glad that they did not have to linger here, stuck somewhere between life and death while their loved ones mourn. I have been at the bedside of countless patients and their families as they've passed and it made me realize that I would want nothing more than the decision of when and how to die to be in my hands alone when the time comes.

That's just really beautifully written. That made me cry. Thank you

 

[Skarekrow]

Its quite interesting that drug companies seem to promote and encourage that "prolonging suffering vs. prolonging life" attitude. Why wouldn't they when cancer treatments cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. There are cancer centers cropping up on every corner, why, because its financially lucrative. I can't help but think drug companies and treatment centers have a vested interest in keeping the "Death with Dignity" law from being passed and basically keeping people sick. Seriously, who makes money if people are healthy?

It was always hard when I would get called in for a surgery…the most common that this discussion applied to were head traumas…usually elderly, usually from a trip and fall…but even those cases where it was severe head trauma the family would very often opt to do everything possible…which gave us in the OR the green light to prepare for a craniotomy.
We would quite often discuss the patient’s prognosis while we were working on them…very often the Surgeon and everyone involved was somewhat perturbed with the family after the initial discussion of “what would you like us to do with your severely damaged family member?” And I understand that there is shock and people don’t want to lose their loved ones…no one ever wants that, but it’s inevitable…but when the Neurosurgeon and the Neurologist are both telling you there is only a 10% chance of survival and then if they do survive there is an even slimmer margin that they will be a normal functioning adult - most likely you will be changing your husband’s or wife’s diapers till they catch a pneumonia that will ultimately do them in but not after much suffering.
It’s a hard choice to make, because sometimes miracles do happen…and people actually win the lottery too….we all want it to be us…this type of situation requires a moment of quiet contemplation and prayer for guidance if that is your thing.
For me…if there is severe head trauma or burns over a good portion of my body (I used to be the lead burn tech at SJCH), you had better just let me die.
If I’m being kept alive with machines…no fucking way.
This is actually a real discussion that several smart articles were written about…how Doctors and medical professionals don’t often treat their own terminal illnesses the same way they recommend to their patients.
Most patients and even the Doctors treating them very often do rounds of chemo and radiation, surgery, etc. being very aggressive with it.
While those in the know, know that quality of life is far more important than quantity.
Those chemo/radiation patients maybe add a few more months…sometimes even a year…but their quality of life is painful, sick, and terrible.
Whereas the medical professionals more often opt to be less aggressive and focus on spending quality time with their loved ones.
You aren’t magically going to learn the secrets of life in the two extra months you prolonged your suffering.
Bowie was right “Knowledge comes with death’s release.”.
Something to think about when your time comes as all ours will.

 

[#@&5&49]

It was always hard when I would get called in for a surgery…the most common that this discussion applied to were head traumas…usually elderly, usually from a trip and fall…but even those cases where it was severe head trauma the family would very often opt to do everything possible…which gave us in the OR the green light to prepare for a craniotomy….

I hear you, and nicely put I might add. Living will for me. Sometimes you just gotta cherish each and every second and then let go when the time comes. There's joy and tragedy in both. I guess the key is in knowing the difference :becky: Thank you.

 

[Skarekrow]

I hear you, and nicely put I might add. Living will for me. Sometimes you just gotta cherish each and every second and then let go when the time comes. There's joy and tragedy in both. I guess the key is in knowing the difference :becky: Thank you.

It’s a sucky discussion to have with your family members, but even my 12 year old knows that I wouldn’t want to be kept alive on machines.
Living wills are a must!
If you don’t have one you can find examples on the internet…get that shit notarized or at the very least mail it to yourself not to opened till the untimely event of your death.
Have your Doctor put your wishes in your records.
I’m not saying -- don’t try and save me, if you have a good chance to save me and I will be functional.
I wouldn’t rupture my spleen in a car crash then say…nope, don’t bother hahaha.
You know what I mean I think.
Anyhow…gotta run…have a good evening!!

 

[PintoBean]

I can relate to both the experiences/sentiments expressed by both [MENTION=13729]Free[/MENTION] and [MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION]. I worked for 2 years in a memory unit as a caregiver. There were people there with middle to end stages of various dementia. Many on hospice. I have had a lot of jobs, but this one stuck in my mind the most because it gave me such perspective on how out of touch Western culture is at dealing with death in a sensible and even humane way. I remember being really horrified when patients with middle-end stage Alzheimer's would routinely fall and crush their hip. The options were wheelchair or full hip replacement. And every time the family chose a total hip replacement. These poor patients would wake up having no idea why they hurt, no idea what they were supposed to do to relearn how to walk with a replacement, no idea they had a replacement, no idea of their limitations etc. Physical therapy is a sad farce for people who have about 3 seconds of short term memory. It was just terrible to watch them crashing around and usually die after about 6 weeks of such an agonizing operation. I'll never understand why someone didn't just bluntly tell the families it was time to stop pulling out all the stops. There was just a terrible disconnect with reality when it came to facing time to say goodbye. People also often opted for aggressive antibiotic treatments for of various infections for late stage dementia patients. Pneumonia used to be regarded as "the old man's friend" (coupled with Morphine of course), but no more it seems. Dementia patients frequently get URIs at the end stage due to difficulty swallowing, but even though advance directives might prohibit vents and feeding tubes, no one thinks to leave out antibiotics. I saw one poor soul with Parkinson's whose life was extended nearly a year due to treating his pneumonia. This very gentle, dignified man spent the entire time shaking, crying and defecating in his wheelchair. I feel that treatment to that extent just to make the family happy is a type of cruelty that should actually be prohibited. Sorry to be depressing, end of rant.

 

[#@&5&49]

WOW, well, I wanted to expand my perspective on the subject of death and dying and that is definitely happening. What I thought was a larger issue is actually even larger than I could have imagined, frightening actually. When you start adding up all the problems associated with death and dying, well, it's a bit overwhelming. It's overwhelming in my little world, but in the larger picture it's just downright...I don't even have a word to describe it.

To me, death and dying seems so natural, just a part of life. But then we attach all kinds of "stuff" to it. I mean, even what I advocate for is "stuff" that I'm attaching to it. Gee wiz though, I'd rather someone (or myself) have the courage and mercy to kill me and put me out of my misery rather than watch me slowly die an agonizing death. Maybe there's just no answer for such a large question that has so many dimensions. But even in the midst of no answers, having choices helps make things tolerable - if that makes sense.

Well, thank you all. You have definitely broadened my perspective. Keep it coming, it's a fascinating topic. Maybe if we can break down the social taboo of talking about death and dying we can make a few strides in breaking down the barriers that prevent positive change from happening. We can only hope.

 

[Artisan]

Thoughts, experiences, feelings, and questions about death and dying.

I do not like the idea of death being the complete end.
I do not like the idea of a hell or a heaven.

Personally I hope for reincarnation.
I will not know what is or will be waiting for me upon death untill I experience it for myself. It really could be nothingness, a raw end without beginning.
But it would be mightily disheartening to me if those who have not had a chance to fully live life, ended with just that. Or if those who felt disadvantaged or did not do well or simply wanted another shot did not to have another roll at the dice.
I'd like reincarnation for myself, a chance to do the story of life over again but to try to do it better. To live the life you failed to live.
To become the person you aimed towards becomming. To appreciate the things you wished to appreciate and to experience the things you longed to experience. Another chance.

No, I do not want for a heaven or a hell, I do not want for a simple end of my existence upon death.
I want for reincarnation, not to live all the negative things through all over again, but to live again and to try do better.
To learn, to love, to be part of life in every form and shape possible.

Not to linger after death as an incorporial being that is no longer part of life, not to be in some utopia made up by some religion that might be a dystopia for others.
What I'd like best, is a chance to live another life, being dealt different cards but with the lessons learned thus far to guide me. Perhaps subconciously if not conciously. Perhaps once again in this world, or the next time in another.
Such a life after life, to me, would be an interesting one. Especially now that I have learned the lessons I've learned thus far.

But those are just my hopes for me. It would be very nice, if everyone had a choice in what they wanted death to result be or result in for them. And honestly, We've yet to discover what the soul really really is. We suspect we have one, we believe we have one, and if so, who is to say, that our souls cannot also be a key to whatever door we choose to go through upon death, regardless of how we got to die?

Instead of thinking of death of the end, I'd like to see it as a mere change in being, as a new beginning driven by ones own choice and full of options. I know what I'd choose. Do you, if given a voice ? ^^

------------

As for the act of dying, I'd rather it be quick and as painless as possible, rather then long and drawn out.
My mother does nightshifts in which she watches over dying people and records their time of death should they die, and cares for them till then.
These people, do not go easily, some have been dying for months, some had very little warning. Their ages differ greatly, some are younger than even I.
Going slowly, is not gentle for many.

I'd also would not want to suffer from dementia. I'd like to go before that.
Preferably, something swift or gentle. Like a swift accident, or like slipping away in the middle of the night.

 

[acd]

[MENTION=5224]Sadie[/MENTION] I'm sorry I never responded to your comment on my post. You said you experienced a peaceful NDE. What was it like?

 

[#@&5&49]

I do not like the idea of death being the complete end.
I do not like the idea of a hell or a heaven.

Personally I hope for reincarnation.
I will not know what is or will be waiting for me upon death untill I experience it for myself. It really could be nothingness, a raw end without beginning.
But it would be mightily disheartening to me if those who have not had a chance to fully live life, ended with just that. Or if those who felt disadvantaged or did not do well or simply wanted another shot did not to have another roll at the dice.
I'd like reincarnation for myself, a chance to do the story of life over again but to try to do it better. To live the life you failed to live.
To become the person you aimed towards becomming. To appreciate the things you wished to appreciate and to experience the things you longed to experience. Another chance.

No, I do not want for a heaven or a hell, I do not want for a simple end of my existence upon death.
I want for reincarnation, not to live all the negative things through all over again, but to live again and to try do better.
To learn, to love, to be part of life in every form and shape possible.

Not to linger after death as an incorporial being that is no longer part of life, not to be in some utopia made up by some religion that might be a dystopia for others.
What I'd like best, is a chance to live another life, being dealt different cards but with the lessons learned thus far to guide me. Perhaps subconciously if not conciously. Perhaps once again in this world, or the next time in another.
Such a life after life, to me, would be an interesting one. Especially now that I have learned the lessons I've learned thus far.

But those are just my hopes for me. It would be very nice, if everyone had a choice in what they wanted death to result be or result in for them. And honestly, We've yet to discover what the soul really really is. We suspect we have one, we believe we have one, and if so, who is to say, that our souls cannot also be a key to whatever door we choose to go through upon death, regardless of how we got to die?

Instead of thinking of death of the end, I'd like to see it as a mere change in being, as a new beginning driven by ones own choice and full of options. I know what I'd choose. Do you, if given a voice ? ^^

------------

As for the act of dying, I'd rather it be quick and as painless as possible, rather then long and drawn out.
My mother does nightshifts in which she watches over dying people and records their time of death should they die, and cares for them till then.
These people, do not go easily, some have been dying for months, some had very little warning. Their ages differ greatly, some are younger than even I.
Going slowly, is not gentle for many.

I'd also would not want to suffer from dementia. I'd like to go before that.
Preferably, something swift or gentle. Like a swift accident, or like slipping away in the middle of the night.

Beautifully said. Thank you.