Court ruled a 14 year old Dutch girl cannot sail around the world solo | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

Court ruled a 14 year old Dutch girl cannot sail around the world solo

mf said:
That's not the same has what he's saying. The difference being in your situation you have a pedophile convincing the parents and the child that it's okay.

Whereas...

In this situation you have a kid who wants to do something and the parents agree.

While I'm not saying I agree or disagree with letting to kid go and sail the world, there is a big difference in my mind from a kid wanting to sail around the world and a pedophile convincing parents and a child that they want to be molested and that molestation is okay.
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How is it different? Convincing is just one method of getting someone to want to do something. The moment you say that "wanting" is the only requirement for a child to be able to make dangerous decisions, then they are open up to any potential danger of which a person could convince them.

Let's say that the parents are drinkers, and the kid wants to drink, and the parents are okay with the kid drinking. Should the kid be allowed to drink?
 
Satya said:
How is it different? Convincing is just one method of getting someone to want to do something. The moment you say that "wanting" is the only requirement for a child to be able to make dangerous decisions, then they are open up to any potential danger of which a person could convince them.

Let's say that the parents are drinkers, and the kid wants to drink, and the parents are okay with the kid drinking. Should the kid be allowed to drink?
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I find convincing and wanting to be two very different things. You can convince someone to do something, yes, but the want to do it is not intrinsic it's extrinsic. If the desire to do something originates without the baiting of another (wanting), I find it be be a very different drive and motivation to do said thing than if they were convinced into wanting if by the work of someone else.

Again, please try and understand that I'm not necessarily agreeing with Indigo or his logic, I'm simply stating that you misrepresented it when you alluded it to a child/parent being convinced into accepting molestation.
 
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mf said:
I find convincing and wanting to be two very different things. You can convince someone to do something, yes, but the want to do it is not intrinsic it's extrinsic. If the desire to do something originates without the baiting of another (wanting), I find it be be a very different drive and motivation to do said thing than if they were convinced into wanting if by the work of someone else.

Again, please try and understand that I'm not necessarily agreeing with Indigo or his logic, I'm simply stating that you misrepresented it when you alluded it to a child/parent being coerced/convinced into accepting molestation.
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Your argument makes no sense. Regardless of whether want is intrinsic or extrinsic, it is still want. That is the only requirement that Indigo put forth. He said as long as the child and parents want it, the child should be allowed to do it. If you personally find it to be very different, then that is fine, but it doesn't mean I misrepresented anything. I also never said anything about coercion, only convincing, so please stop trying to misrepresent what I said. If Indigo wants to clarify what he meant by want, then let him do so.
 
Satya said:
Your argument makes no sense. Regardless of whether want is intrinsic or extrinsic, it is still want. That is the only requirement that Indigo put forth. He said as long as the child and parents want it, the child should be allowed to do it. If you personally find it to be very different, then that is fine, but it doesn't mean I misrepresented anything. I also never said anything about coercion, only convincing, so please stop trying to misrepresent what I said. If Indigo wants to clarify what he meant by want, then let him do so.
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You added a third party into the situation with the pedophile. Thus adding convincing, thus adding extrinsic pressure.

EDIT: I apologize about the coercion; I miss read your post. I will delete it from mine as to not misrepresent what you said.
 
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mf said:
You added a third party into the situation with the pedophile. Thus adding convincing, thus adding extrinsic pressure.
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And this girl doesn't have extrinsic pressure to be the youngest person to sail around the world? How do you know that her parents didn't pressure her into this?
 
Satya said:
And this girl doesn't have extrinsic pressure to be the youngest person to sail around the world? How do you know that her parents didn't pressure her into this?
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How do you know they did?

And one final time to state my only point: the difference I saw you adding to Indigo's arguement was that they were convinced into allowing molestation (thus extrinsic pressure) the way I read Indigo's was the girl wanted to and her parents want to allow her to do it (thus the girl was intrinsically motivated and the parents approved). Therein lies the difference between the two and how I didn't think it was the same as a child pedophile convincing parents/child.

That's all I'm saying; I'm not saying the girl was/wasn't forced into it, that it's wrong/right, or anything thing else. Just that I didn't read his logic the same way you did when you alluded it to a child pedophile.
 
She has done solo sailing before
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8219443.stm

You argue she being pressured to do it, from the sound of her life she's spent more of it on yachts than land. Would you honestly feel differently if her parents were against her doing this as well?
 
mf said:
How do you know they did?

And one final time to state my only point: the difference I saw you adding to Indigo's arguement was that they were convinced into allowing molestation (thus extrinsic pressure) the way I read Indigo's was the girl wanted to and her parents want to allow her to do it (thus the girl was intrinsically motivated and the parents approved). Therein lies the difference between the two and how I didn't think it was the same as a child pedophile convincing parents/child.

That's all I'm saying; I'm not saying the girl was/wasn't forced into it, that it's wrong/right, or anything thing else. Just that I didn't read his logic the same way you did when you alluded it to a child pedophile.
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It doesn't seem that Indigo has any interest in clarifying the point, so I guess we can only speculate. For that matter, I provided a different situation which you ignored, regarding drinking. And as neither you nor I nor anyone else can really tell what factors are motivating the girl, it only strengthens my point that the parents should be held responsible if anything happens to her.
 
Satya said:
It doesn't seem that Indigo has any interest in clarifying the point, so I guess we can only speculate. For that matter, I provided a different situation which you ignored, regarding drinking. And as neither you nor I nor anyone else can really tell what factors are motivating the girl, it only strengthens my point that the parents should be held responsible if anything happens to her.
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I agree with you on that; what ever happens to the girl is ulimately the parents responsibility.

I ignored your question about drinking because it wasn't part of the arguement I was trying to make. My opinion about drinking or ultimately who's right/wrong was of no regards to my arguement of your pedophile allusion. If you want to argue opinions on this matter, I will gladly do so elsewhere.
 
mf said:
I agree with you on that; what ever happens to the girl is ulimately the parents responsibility.

I ignored your question about drinking because it wasn't part of the arguement I was trying to make. My opinion about drinking or ultimately who's right/wrong was of no regards to my arguement of your pedophile allusion. If you want to argue opinions on this matter, I will gladly do so elsewhere.
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Meh, so basically your arguments had nothing to do with the topic of the thread. You just didn't like my allusion to the pedophile. Aren't you the argumentative one.
 
I think that girl has a lot of ambition and I admire her for that but I don't think any 14 year old is emotionally and psychologically ready to be on their own for 8 months at sea.
 
Judges at the Utrecht district court said Ms Dekker's sailing skills were not in question.
But they said her safety plan was not fully developed and that she had no experience with sleep management.
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Hmmm thats curious. That makes it sound like that her plan and skills went under some review. Yah know if a kid want to do something that dangerous and they apparently have the skill let them. This kid did not apparently have enough skill just yet.

I wonder if the ruling would have been different had she been a boy? Just cause I am a cynic.
 
Cause ultimately skill is more important than age when it comes to these things.
 
Sleep management is a very important thing.

I suspect that within two months, if she masters the polyphasic sleeping, she'll be allowed.
 
fly away said:
I think that girl has a lot of ambition and I admire her for that but I don't think any 14 year old is emotionally and psychologically ready to be on their own for 8 months at sea.
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I think you are right. Risk is something which should be taken on with both eyes wide open; the reality is that by the age of 14 most people don't have a true grasp of many of the issues at stake and might not be able to form a measured opinion.

If this girl was born on a yacht and had her own boat at 10 then i think it is safe to infer she is influenced a lot by her parents on this. Her parents see this as an opportunity for their daughter to grasp fame and fortune, but is this blinding them to the reality of the risks and pressures involved?

Has a 14 year old got the emotional tools involved to know when she is making a decision for herself or when she is being manipulated by others and is she emotionally and physically equiped for the task?

I am not risk averse, and am involved in a risky past time, but i do believe that people must do things for the right reasons. Their motives must be pure or they are heading for trouble. I don't mean that in a mumbo jumbo kind of way, there are practical reasons behind why your motives can affect your decision making abilities for better or worse.

For example blind ambition can make people continue with a venture, against the odds, when it is wise to turn back.
 
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