Charisma - What is it and have you got it?

[Deleted member 16771]

@Ren Just slow down. If you need to tell me (/quote to me) what's triggered this kind of response, then I can modulate how I respond to this discussion.

If you need more overt demonstration that I'm absorbing yours/others points, or whatever it might be, then I can do that.

I assure you that I'm not emotionally involved in this discussion, and that I do respect everyone here and their viewpoints.


I seem to be more along one side of a spectrum between charisma being an inherent property of individuals vs being purely something generated in social interactions. This doesn't mean that I don't recognise your viewpoint or argument or that I'm not open to being convinced.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

You need to be more polite and more humble. Also, if you could make your arguments a little easier to understand, that would be helpful as well.

Instead of dismissing this straightaway as an 'ad hominem', why don't you sit on it for a while and ask yourself whether there may be some truth to it?

Also, stop blaming Fe. It's just a cheap shot.

OK, I understand.

I'm sorry if I caused any disquiet.

I think John has been a good articulator of my position, and Wyote understands where I'm coming from, too.

I assure you that I'm not 'invested' in these ideas, emotionally or otherwise, even if I present them 'emphatically'. It's just there as a foil around which to orient and work against.

If there is a component of charisma that is an inherent property that is able to be isolated from the social context/culture, then I think that would be cool to find.

If it looks like I'm invalidating your ideas, then I apologise for that. It's never my intention.

 

[philostam]

Put me in my place? What on earth are you talking about?

You need to realize that you are not the moral authority of this place.

I once slipped and said that Greta had a "condition" - you immediately swooped in with your 'superior morality' and called me with some pretty horrible insult.

When you do something that other people don't like, you are "just having fun" and assuring us that you are emotionally detached. First of all, who cares, and second of all, that doesn't mean the person on the opposite site is as detached as you.

Not to mention you called out ReasonEnduring for the same crime you are committing every day, only much worse.

Learn to be a bit more humble and polite in your delivery, and everything will be fine.

 

[Wyote]

I disagree

 

[Deleted member 16771]

You need to realize that you are not the moral authority of this place.

I don't need to be made to realise that. This is not how I operate. I speak for no-one but myself.

I once slipped and said that Greta had a "condition" - you immediately swooped in with your 'superior morality' and called me with some pretty horrible insult.

When you do something that other people don't like, you are "just having fun" and assuring us that you are emotionally detached. First of all, who cares, and second of all, that doesn't mean the person on the opposite site is as detached as you.

This isn't true.

I mentioned how it was just 'fun' for me in order to assure you guys that I wasn't actually getting frustrated or anything like that. In other words, it was a signal to you that you could continue to hammer the position and I wouldn't get upset - that it was just fun to me.

And you should care if you care about how I'm faring in a discussion like this - you're asking for me to care, after all.

Not to mention you called out ReasonEnduring for the same crime you are committing every day, only much worse.

Learn to be a bit more humble and polite in your delivery, and everything will be fine.

I accept what you're saying, phil. I don't want to upset you guys - seriously. I love both you and Ren and I love to discuss things like this with you, and if you need me to change my tone, then that's absolutely something I can do.


I think there is just a fundamentally different way that Te/Fi people and Fe/Ti people go about debating these things, and the level of detatchment with which they do it. I've seen it in other places on this forum, too, where an Fe user will jump into a debate and tell people to calm down because they were worried about people getting upset when in reality nothing was wrong.

There's nothing wrong with that, but it does reveal a misunderstanding of others when Fe concerns are projected into spaces where they don't belong. (In this case, those concerns do belong here because you've indicated as much.)

 

[Deleted member 16771]

 

[Wyote]

I mentioned how it was just 'fun' for me in order to assure you guys that I wasn't actually getting frustrated or anything like that.

You've mentioned having troubles in different contexts with this sort of thing.
So, it is obvious that you are the determining factor in this issue.
People are trying to help you. Think it over a bit.

 

[Ren]

This isn't true.

I mentioned how it was just 'fun' for me in order to assure you guys that I wasn't actually getting frustrated or anything like that. In other words, it was a signal to you that you could continue to hammer the position and I wouldn't get upset - that it was just fun to me.

It is true. @philostam is right, you do it all the time. It's really a pattern with you, but not from the beginning of your membership here. Maybe in the last six months or so.

I don't think it is innocent at all, but I am willing to contemplate that it might be unconscious. You would say dismissive things, then add that you're joking as if that was sufficient in itself, and then be scandalised when it's mentioned to you, and more or less imply that you are being persecuted for being a 'tough thinker'.

That's bullshit, though. Trust me, if you employ that kind of tone in an academic setting, you would get cut to pieces, and quickly.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I don't think it is innocent at all

What do you mean?

 

[Ren]

You've mentioned having troubles in different contexts with this sort of thing.
So, it is obvious that you are the determining factor in this issue.
People are trying to help you. Think it over a bit.

Absolutely agree. There is no malicious intent here. Thanks for making it clear.

 

[Lady Jolanda]

 

[Wyote]

Well, since you ask, I will tell you what I think, though I can't say I'm certain.

I think that these days you have an unconscious craving to assert yourself forcefully in certain spheres that you feel comfortable in, at any possible cost, because you are trying to compensate for a feeling of inadequacy and failure at a more personal, emotional, and romantic level.

And all this is made much worse by the Ni-Fi looping you're currently in (I strongly, strongly think) due to the fact you spend so much of your time in your room, not outside engaging with people in the outside world, ruminating endlessly and locking yourself in a constant—and most importantly, never challenged—introspection.

Me: There are probably two zones here
Old Hos: Interesting idea, but here's where it may fall short
New Hos: Fuck you guy

 

[Ren]

Me: There are probably two zones here
Old Hos: Interesting idea, but here's where it may fall short
New Hos: Fuck you guy

Old Wyote: cookies
New Wyote: cookies

 

[Wyote]

Old Wyote: cookies
New Wyote: cookies

There are two zones to cookies
1. Outside my stomach
2. No ragrets

 

[Lady Jolanda]

Old Wyote: cookies
New Wyote: cookies

Old Wyote: Hitler
New Wyote: Hitler

 

[philostam]

Well, since you ask, I will tell you what I think, though I can't say I'm certain.

I think that these days you have an unconscious craving to assert yourself forcefully in certain spheres that you feel comfortable in, at any possible cost, because you are trying to compensate for a feeling of inadequacy and failure at a more personal, emotional, and romantic level.

And all this is made much worse by the Ni-Fi looping you're currently in (I strongly, strongly think) due to the fact you spend so much of your time in your room, not outside engaging with people in the outside world, ruminating endlessly and locking yourself in a constant—and most importantly, never challenged—introspection.

Hmmm. I am not sure that's completely true or helpful (insights need to come from within the person himself).

First of all, it's hard to engage with the outside world too much during corona which is pretty serious in UK.

I think Hos has a lot on his plate and has reached some good conclusions about his mom etc. So that shows that introspection can be fruitful. Also, he is aware of the fact that he needs to connect with people. If I understand correctly - that's why he left the forum in the first place. Also he mentions it a lot in his blog (sorry to speak in third person, lol).

I think that on some level he just started detesting Fe and is experimenting with different flavors of his personality.

I think the problem is only when you are in your "debate mode", @Deleted member 16771. In other activities you still show a lot of care and affection, like in your blog etc.

 

[Wyote]

Old Wyote: Hitler
New Wyote: Hitler

 

[Ren]

Hmmm. I am not sure that's completely true or helpful (insights need to come from within the person himself).

First of all, it's hard to engage with the outside world too much during corona which is pretty serious in UK.

I think Hos has a lot on his plate and has reached some good conclusions about his mom etc. So that shows that introspection can be fruitful. Also, he is aware of the fact that he needs to connect with people. If I understand correctly - that's why he left the forum in the first place. Also he mentions it a lot in his blog (sorry to speak in third person, lol).

I think that on some level he just started detesting Fe and is experimenting with different flavors of his personality.

I think the problem is only when you are in your "debate mode", @Deleted member 16771. In other activities you still show a lot of care and affection, like in your blog etc.

Yes, you’re right. I probably pushed the point a little too far. Thanks for clarifying

 

[Deleted member 16771]

but I will refrain from being rude and arrogant like you have been, because I see it as a sign of weakness.

I wonder where your philosophical spirit has disappeared to.

You should come back down to earth.

You're only a PhD student

I think you may have let yourself be swayed by people complimenting you, but again, that is just weakness of spirit, and it won't allow you to get better and better.

This is the kind of humility that is needed to really get good at a discipline.

Man, I think you might need to take another break from this forum.

You're not realising this, but you're becoming delusional—all pretenses to "having a bit of fun" aside.

I'm sorry, but you needed someone to put you in your place.

That's bullshit, though. Trust me, if you employ that kind of tone in an academic setting, you would get cut to pieces, and quickly.

Well, since you ask, I will tell you what I think, though I can't say I'm certain.

I think that these days you have an unconscious craving to assert yourself forcefully in certain spheres that you feel comfortable in, at any possible cost, because you are trying to compensate for a feeling of inadequacy and failure at a more personal, emotional, and romantic level.

And all this is made much worse by the Ni-Fi looping you're currently in (I strongly, strongly think) due to the fact you spend so much of your time in your room, not outside engaging with people in the outside world, ruminating endlessly and locking yourself in a constant—and most importantly, never challenged—introspection.

Ren, I appreciate your perspective, but I think this kind of thing says a lot more about you than it does me.

I don't know why there's such an inordinate focus of my personal status - it's not my focus.

I don't think about your status, or your personal life, or anything of the sort when I engage with you, and I wouldn't bring it into a discussion like this. I don't think anyone has to be 'shown their place'; I'm not even sure what you mean by that, and yet you've leveled these things at me to... try to harm my confidence? To 'hurt me' into behaving better?

If you think I'm acting like a dick, then just tell me, and I'll moderate. I can be oblivious when I'm emotionally depleted (though generally I'm pretty good now) or more used to talking with diifferent sorts of people, and not really realise what kind of effect I'm having, but I'll always listen and try to be better.

I must be clear with you - the ad hominems are not appropriate. If I start to be a bit too 'debatey', then just give me a little nudge, but there really is no need for this 'showing my place'.

 

[Ren]

Ren, I appreciate your perspective, but I think this kind of thing says a lot more about you than it does me.

I don't know why there's such an inordinate focus of my personal status - it's not my focus.

I don't think about your status, or your personal life, or anything of the sort when I engage with you, and I wouldn't bring it into a discussion like this. I don't think anyone has to be 'shown their place'; I'm not even sure what you mean by that, and yet you've leveled these things at me to... try to harm my confidence? To 'hurt me' into behaving better?

If you think I'm acting like a dick, then just tell me, and I'll moderate. I can be oblivious when I'm emotionally depleted (though generally I'm pretty good now) or more used to talking with diifferent sorts of people, and not really realise what kind of effect I'm having, but I'll always listen and try to be better.

I must be clear with you - the ad hominems are not appropriate. If I start to be a bit too 'debatey', then just give me a little nudge, but there really is no need for this 'showing my place'.

Sure, whatever.

I won’t mention this anymore as I don’t want to emotionally exhaust you. But I am allowed to have the belief that you’re again falling back into your usual and predictable mode of deflection.