Charisma - What is it and have you got it? | Page 8 | INFJ Forum

Charisma - What is it and have you got it?

Ren said:
Hmmm. I think this is true of some, but not all. I struggle to see what set of values and beliefs defines Obama or Trump, for example.
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Really?

I'm kind of amazed that we have such different perceptions about this, and I'm wondering now how I could actually explain it. I'll probably try to come back to this later today.

Ren said:
and even less so moral values.
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This is the definition of 'moral' that needs to be discarded to understand what I mean.

Think of all the connotations of 'idealism' - including Enlightenment and Romanticist 'spirit', and all of that stuff.

I think you're being sidetracked by the 'ethical' component of 'moral' - when I say 'moral', 'ethical' is only distantly related to what I mean.

Well, that coupled with the fact that I'm not explaining it very well, lol.
 
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Deleted member 16771 said:
I think you're being sidetracked by the 'ethical' component of 'moral' - when I say 'moral', 'ethical' is only distantly related to what I mean.
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Yeah, I think you're right. I'm probably putting too much emphasis on the ethical.
 
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Ren said:
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for a human*
 
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Deleted member 16771 said:
I think all of those characters have the kind of 'moral force' I'm talking about, in fact it's there defining feature.

They are defined by their 'morality', in that they are seen/observed/perceived to hold firm to a well-defined set of values and beliefs, which means that they are able to become idealised as avatars of those beliefs.

They become like aspected gods or demigods, apotheosised by the ideals that they come to represent.

They are personifications of ideals - this is what I mean by moral force. And it's curious, but even the charismatic leaders which are more Realpolitik than idealist appropriate this veneer, but in their case they tend to become associated with the nation instead (and especially if 'pragmatism' is in any way part of what is perceived to be 'the national character'). I think BoJo and Putin are like this.

Think of Greta Thunberg and we think of climate change. She's almost literally the God of (anti-) Climate Change, in terms of how human beings elevate their leaders.

This quality of 'moral force' is about ideals, about personified symbols that are easy to latch onto, understand and follow. When we elevate them, they undergo a process of othering by merging with the ideals.
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I think you need to expand on this. Are you saying that everyone who holds firm and well-defined set of values and beliefs is charismatic? If so, I don't think that's a sufficient criteria at all.

In this case literally every idiot on the street could be seen as charismatic. Racists, Trump fanatics etc. They have firm beliefs ans stand for something, right?

I don't think there is a formula for charisma, just as there isn't for good leadership. There are different types of good leaders. There are successful leaders who command the troops, and there are other who find success with more open minded and collaborative approach.

But if I was pressed, I would associate charisma with humor, people skills, passion, engagement, flexibility, intelligence. In typology terms, I would say ENFP and ENTP are usually quite charismatic.

By those standards, I would also have to agree with @sassafras that Greta Thunberg is not charismatic at all. Like it or not, I think charisma is a lot about your delivery and appearance.
 
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philostam said:
I think you need to expand on this. Are you saying that everyone who holds firm and well-defined set of values and beliefs is charismatic? If so, I don't think that's a sufficient criteria at all.

In this case literally every idiot on the street could be seen as charismatic. Racists, Trump fanatics etc. They have firm beliefs ans stand for something, right?

I don't think there is a formula for charisma, just as there isn't for good leadership. There are different types of good leaders. There are successful leaders who command the troops, and there are other who find success with more open minded and collaborative approach.

But if I was pressed, I would associate charisma with humor, people skills, passion, engagement, flexibility, intelligence. In typology terms, I would say ENFP and ENTP are usually quite charismatic.

By those standards, I would also have to agree with @sassafras that Greta Thunberg is not charismatic at all. Like it or not, I think charisma is a lot about your delivery and appearance.
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I love being completely misunderstood, phil, lol.
 
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Deleted member 16771 said:
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It's tough to parse where individual skill transcends and begins this process of gifting.
I think there is some sort of basic quota for charismatic skill, but it can also be gifted to a person with less skill, if they are
1. Falsely perceived as having greater skill
2. The implementation of the act of gifting outweighs whatever detriment a lack of skill entails

I think there is a perception of a lot of people that Greta does indeed hold a certain kind of charisma.
But also that her ability to be charismatic is secondary to the idea of Greta. Greta the God, not Greta the actual person.

Some word vomit for you. You're welcome.
 
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