Charisma - What is it and have you got it? | Page 7 | INFJ Forum

Charisma - What is it and have you got it?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ate-action-meet-more-young-activists-feature/

fyi (just reading along with Greta and her persona as being charismatic)

As for Charismatic persons to me: Alexander the Great, Feynman, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk (yeah yeah), Boyan Slat, even PewdiePie to name a random few.

I just think, personally, that Greta is too young to be dedicated as a charismatic persona. (But prove me wrong here, because I could be).
 
I agree with @Deleted member 16771 - she's definitely someone that the daimon has in its grip rather than the other way round, but that really underpins what I'm saying about charysma, that it's as much to do with the reflection and channeling of great social forces welling up naturally, as well as their initiation. She's by no means a leader except as a figurehead, but changes are taking place on a significant scale through her.
By contrast, take good old Barrack Obama:

Skill is up there, let's say '9' or something like that, but 'Affinity' is lower, perhaps '5' because he was never really able to plug into a real 'movement' (CQ45). Trump is practically the opposite of this situation, with high Affinity but lower Skill.
 
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...ate-action-meet-more-young-activists-feature/

fyi (just reading along with Greta and her persona as being charismatic)

As for Charismatic persons to me: Alexander the Great, Feynman, Steve Jobs, Elon Musk (yeah yeah), Boyan Slat, even PewdiePie to name a random few.

I just think, personally, that Greta is too young to be dedicated as a charismatic persona. (But prove me wrong here, because I could be).
I'd certainly go with the guys you have chosen.
I'll not argue things too strongly for little Greta, except that I'm not judging on whether I find these guys charismatic, but on how they are impacting their admirers and society in general.
 
I'd certainly go with the guys you have chosen.
I'll not argue things too strongly for little Greta, except that I'm not judging on whether I find these guys charismatic, but on how they are impacting their admirers and society in general.
Hmm, let's go with the middle ground and say she is inspirational to those attuned to her message. Thus having charismatic characteristics.
 
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Dear God. With love and respect to what she's trying to accomplish, but I don't think Greta Thunberg is charismatic at all. She's got that stiff, singular Mark Zuckerberg quality that makes you think there's a zipper at the back of her head. I think if we took both Greta and Trump out of their respective political contexts, at least Trump would be able to sell you a blue pen.

In fact, this may be an important distinction. If we stripped the pre-existing social influences away, if no one knew who you were or what you had to offer, and you walked into a room as entirely a blank slate, how quickly would you be able to ascend the social hierarchy?

This would definitely correlate with the concept of affinity and the article drag shared on quick thinking.

Which would make sense. Improv classes would have a very direct influence on your charisma. What do you think @slant?
 
Dear God. With love and respect to what she's trying to accomplish, but I don't think Greta Thunberg is charismatic at all. She's got that stiff, singular Mark Zuckerberg quality that makes you think there's a zipper at the back of her head. I think if we took both Greta and Trump out of their respective political contexts, at least Trump would be able to sell you a blue pen.

In fact, this may be an important distinction. If we stripped the pre-existing social influences away, if no one knew who you were or what you had to offer, and you walked into a room as entirely a blank slate, how quickly would you be able to ascend the social hierarchy?

This would definitely correlate with the concept of affinity and the article drag shared on quick thinking.

Which would make sense. Improv classes would have a very direct influence on your charisma. What do you think @slant?
I don't know who Greta is.

Was the question is I thought Greta is charismatic?
 
I don't know who Greta is.

Was the question is I thought Greta is charismatic?

Improv classes. You go to a comedy club, don't you? What's your take on it sharpening your ability to get on people's wavelengths?

There's something really weird going on with my forum messages. I don't know if you guys are seeing it or not, but sometimes my quoted texts seem to disappear.
 
Improv classes. You go to a comedy club, don't you? What's your take on it sharpening your ability to get on people's wavelengths?
I go to open mics. Never did improv class never been good at it.

There's a lot of comedians who will try to read the room and change their act based on responses, this seems to be the standard operating procedure. I don't do that.

I just go on stage and am myself and I say what I think is funny and if the audience doesn't think it's funny I keep going with even more confidence because I think it's funny. People tend to beat themselves up like oh my content wasn't funny I didn't present it right blah blah but I think it's also just, every audience is different, not everyone is going to be a good fit.

I'm against changing your act based on external feedback you get because over time it changes your style and you're no longer performing your comedy, but this weird synthesized thing that may get reactions but is hard to maintain because your humor isn't naturally that way.

My feelings with comedy is that I want to be a funny person, not have funny material. I want to learn to say things and present myself in a way that connects with people and is relatable and gets laughs. Most of the time that's just by embracing myself and being vulnerable on stage. Vulnerability is the funniest thing if you present it right.

As an audience member I'm very responsive. I've noticed many times comedians lock into me specifically in the audience because I'm laughing and then suddenly BAM they gain confidence, go hard, and everyone's laughing. That's what you tend to do as a performer you lock into whoever is responding, who is "feeling" you and that gives you confidence to be completely vulnerable.

Which is why I think charisma comes down to high emotional iq.

In a one on one setting talking to someone, people tend to like me, even if I don't like them because I am very responsive. I read their expressions, empathize with what they're saying and validate their experiences, just naturally. I'm not so good at asking them about their life or getting them to open up but if someone is talking to me they feel like I am listening and that I understand them and that goes a long way.

All that human beings really want is to be understood and feel that they are important.

Always in my comedy, I find a way to involve the audience. I've asked people if I could borrow something they had as a prop and then when it was my turn on stage went over to them with the mic, asked them to introduce themselves and thanked them. Also if the audience is frustrated with you like if they don't like your jokes, acknowledging that sometimes flips it around. I don't consciously do this; it's my empathy. I notice the response and will say something like,

"I know you're sick of me, but give a chance! This is the only form of social attention I get all week" or you know something like that. And many times people will pay attention again and start laughing.

It's the eq man
Eq
 
I don't wanna get political but since Trump was mentioned I think this is a good clip to study to understand the charisma of trump:


He is:

Complimenting, praising

Pointing out an injustice and empathizing

Responding to the audience by stopping to listen. He dismisses them but half heartedly and let's them vent.

He is very expressive. People know what he is feeling. They can relate to him.

Perhaps the content of his words are not eloquent but he has all of the recipe for being a responsive communicator in play, making people feel heard and understood if he's speaking to them.
 
I think a big part of Trump's charisma is that he gives zero fucks. He doesn't care if he offends anyone or if what he says is even correct. He speaks with total confidence. People looking for a confident "strong man" tend to be drawn in by him. He creates reality because he believes he is right and others are then convinced, otherwise they begin to question themselves. I think he demonstrates a dark side of charisma.
 
I think a big part of Trump's charisma is that he gives zero fucks. He doesn't care if he offends anyone or if what he says is even correct. He speaks with total confidence. People looking for a confident "strong man" tend to be drawn in by him. He creates reality because he believes he is right and others are then convinced, otherwise they begin to question themselves. I think he demonstrates a dark side of charisma.
And yet... He gives the most fucks, too.

His skin is very very thin, which is why he descends to twitter every time he's attacked somehow.

He would like permission to be an asshole and receive adulation for it.
 
My feelings with comedy is that I want to be a funny person, not have funny material. I want to learn to say things and present myself in a way that connects with people and is relatable and gets laughs. Most of the time that's just by embracing myself and being vulnerable on stage. Vulnerability is the funniest thing if you present it right.

I just want to acknowledge that this is true for charisma and comedy. So much depends on delivery. All the funny people I know irl have this gift, including an ex of mine. He just had a way of saying things that had everyone in stitches.

Vulnerability too, though in the context of charm and funny, I find this has to be paired carefully with tone.

Which is why I think charisma comes down to high emotional iq.

In a one on one setting talking to someone, people tend to like me, even if I don't like them because I am very responsive. I read their expressions, empathize with what they're saying and validate their experiences, just naturally. I'm not so good at asking them about their life or getting them to open up but if someone is talking to me they feel like I am listening and that I understand them and that goes a long way.

All that human beings really want is to be understood and feel that they are important.

Yes.

Always in my comedy, I find a way to involve the audience. I've asked people if I could borrow something they had as a prop and then when it was my turn on stage went over to them with the mic, asked them to introduce themselves and thanked them. Also if the audience is frustrated with you like if they don't like your jokes, acknowledging that sometimes flips it around. I don't consciously do this; it's my empathy. I notice the response and will say something like,

"I know you're sick of me, but give a chance! This is the only form of social attention I get all week" or you know something like that. And many times people will pay attention again and start laughing.

That's a pretty awesome strategy. All of this just makes me wish there was some way to do this via tinychat (or some other facsimile) so we could sit in and see one of your shows.
 
I just want to acknowledge that this is true for charisma and comedy. So much depends on delivery. All the funny people I know irl have this gift, including an ex of mine. He just had a way of saying things that had everyone in stitches.

Vulnerability too, though in the context of charm and funny, I find this has to be paired carefully with tone.



Yes.



That's a pretty awesome strategy. All of this just makes me wish there was some way to do this via tinychat (or some other facsimile) so we could sit in and see one of your shows.
I totally would! I miss performing and I need to express myself, so in that way I'm a glutton for attention. :p if I succeeded in making anyone actually laugh given the circumstances the world is in, I'd sure feel honored!
 
Dear God. With love and respect to what she's trying to accomplish, but I don't think Greta Thunberg is charismatic at all. She's got that stiff, singular Mark Zuckerberg quality that makes you think there's a zipper at the back of her head. I think if we took both Greta and Trump out of their respective political contexts, at least Trump would be able to sell you a blue pen.
:tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy::tearsofjoy:

She's not my cup of tea at all, but then I react the same way to collectives as I do to grass pollen. With Greta, that scolding Parent thing is so very irritating and makes me sneeze even more. But that's beside the point in my view because there are very many others who see differently, particularly idealistic teenagers who are worried their lives will be ruined by climate change:
https://medium.com/@eresida/is-greta-thunberg-a-charismatic-leader-edf145bc0d80
We must have had hundreds of thousands of children in the UK who went on strike from school inspired by her preaching and example, and supported by their teachers.

She illustrates why I think the idea of Charisma
  • needs to be teased out into the two aspects of personal attributes and possession by unfolding forces within society and culture,
  • and why I think is best to think along a spectrum of charisma rather than saying someone has it or hasn't. It seems to me that from the impact she's having, Greta is showing aspects of charisma but more as a phenomenon than as an agent with control. She's somewhere between CQ45-65 on my scale, I'd say, and probably around the 55-60 mark.
She'll probably put off at least as many people as she inspires, but that's the same with lots of controversial influencers. Trump is the same, although a rather different flavour of fish.

Just a sanity check to make sure I'm not talking complete rot (has been known all too often;))
The Concise Oxford Dictionary defines charisma as
  1. Compelling attractiveness or charm that can inspire devotion
  2. A divinely conferred power or talent
 
Infinite charisma is impossible.

giphy.gif
 
Maybe a combined presence of ruling rebel and caregiving jester. Emitting a radiant captivating presence, by combining child and parent aspects easily in a natural and unblocked manner. (authority, nurturing, wildness, spontaneity,..)
 
In terms of 'charisma', then, I'm convinced that a property like 'moral force' is a key element, otherwise you're just a showman.

What do you mean by 'moral force'? It sounds quite vague.

I don't think charisma has anything to do with morality, to be honest. If you specify 'moral force' the outcome will be that it excludes too many extremely charismatic figures, such as Trump, Stalin, Putin, Obama, and indeed a whole range of public figures and actors. On the other hand, if you relax it to allow for those figures to be included, then it's too vague and is threatened to become meaningless I think.

I'm sure people with great moral authority can be 'charismatic' to those who hold moral authority as something very important, but the latter are only a small part of the population if we're being realistic.
 
Maybe a combined presence of ruling rebel and caregiving jester. Emitting a radiant captivating presence, by combining child and parent aspects easily in a natural and unblocked manner. (authority, nurturing, wildness, spontaneity,..)
This is very perceptive, there's something here. We ought to pursue this idea.

I don't think charisma has anything to do with morality, to be honest. If you specify 'moral force' the outcome will be that it excludes too many extremely charismatic figures, such as Trump, Stalin, Putin, Obama, and indeed a whole range of public figures and actors. On the other hand, if you relax it to allow for those figures to be included, then it's too vague and is threatened to become meaningless I think.
I think all of those characters have the kind of 'moral force' I'm talking about, in fact it's there defining feature.

They are defined by their 'morality', in that they are seen/observed/perceived to hold firm to a well-defined set of values and beliefs, which means that they are able to become idealised as avatars of those beliefs.

They become like aspected gods or demigods, apotheosised by the ideals that they come to represent.

They are personifications of ideals - this is what I mean by moral force. And it's curious, but even the charismatic leaders which are more Realpolitik than idealist appropriate this veneer, but in their case they tend to become associated with the nation instead (and especially if 'pragmatism' is in any way part of what is perceived to be 'the national character'). I think BoJo and Putin are like this.

Think of Greta Thunberg and we think of climate change. She's almost literally the God of (anti-) Climate Change, in terms of how human beings elevate their leaders.

This quality of 'moral force' is about ideals, about personified symbols that are easy to latch onto, understand and follow. When we elevate them, they undergo a process of othering by merging with the ideals.
 
They are defined by their 'morality', in that they are seen/observed/perceived to hold firm to a well-defined set of values and beliefs, which means that they are able to become idealised as avatars of those beliefs.

Hmmm. I think this is true of some, but not all. I struggle to see what set of values and beliefs defines Obama or Trump, for example. I don't deny that they do have values and beliefs, but not to the extent that this would define who they are. There are certainly traits of Trump that define who he is, but I'm not sure it's values, and even less so moral values.

On the other hand, I can also think of leaders who 'became' charismatic precisely for the reasons you're invoking. I'm thinking especially of Robespierre. By all accounts, as a person he was not especially charismatic, but he was incorruptibly concerned with moral virtue and when he came to embody it as the leader of Revolutionary France, he was entirely transfigured.

Maybe this is what is happening with Greta Thunberg as well.