Charisma - What is it and have you got it?

[sassafras]

I think you'll need to have a natural affinity in getting energy from doing charismatic actions. But the way you perform them is learnt (as it requires interacting with others and understanding the actions/reactions, able to read them, ..., social rules, know how to react on them). Though empathy is a natural trait that works well along these actions. To me it looks like one of the most difficult things to learn and sustain in general.

The more you do it, the more you become it, I think. Also, who you associate with, where you work, your life circumstances, etc. play a role. If you choose to thrive in an environment, as opposed to being bludgeoned by it, you eventually become energized by the things that allow you navigate that environment with ease. It becomes natural.

Though I'm thinking maybe we're blurring the lines between charisma and just social ease. What is the difference, do you think? Is there one?

 

[Wyote]

MORE MORE

I actually have an emoji face pillow, not this face though

 

[dragulagu]

The more you do it, the more you become it, I think. Also, who you associate with, where you work, your life circumstances, etc. play a role. If you choose to thrive in an environment, as opposed to being bludgeoned by it, you eventually become energized by the things that allow you navigate that environment with ease. It becomes natural.

Though I'm thinking maybe we're blurring the lines between charisma and just social ease. What is the difference, do you think? Is there one?

Nah, I think it's on point. Part of Charisma is creating social ease.

Wanted to reply on Hos' post with

 

[dragulagu]

So it's about a zero-sum game of credibility in cases where the charisma is deployed in conflictual situations. Simply by 'having' mastery, and without deliberately attempting to undermine anyone's credibility, its demonstration almost automatically rewrites the hierarchy in any given space in favour of the person who obviously and actually isn't bullshitting.

Having a real clue goes a long way, and you only really earn that if you care anyway.

 

[dragulagu]

I actually have an emoji face pillow, not this face though

Piks or it didn't happn

 

[Wyote]

Piks or it didn't happn

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[sassafras]

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On a separate note, I think this is a tricky line to walk with authority figures because it's something that can come across as extremely phony. It's like the teacher who is hip with the lingo and insists that his students call him 'Just Jack.' Or the CEO that gathers everyone into the meeting room and insists everyone in the company is 'Family.' I've seen a very similar graphic included in team meetings and you can feel the collective eyeroll. Because even if corporate is rolling up their sleeves and getting down in the mud with you, there is an invisible line somewhere that sometimes tips into the performative. Especially if a leader tries to downplay the privileges of their position or insist that they're just like you, even if they are not.

I think charisma is so difficult to master because it requires a very intricate balance of marrying individual authenticity with the collective needs of the group.

 

[dragulagu]

On a separate note, I think this is a tricky line to walk with authority figures because it's something that can come across as extremely phony. It's like the teacher who is hip with the lingo and insists that his students call him 'Just Jack.' Or the CEO that gathers everyone into the meeting room and insists everyone in the company is 'Family.' I've seen a very similar graphic included in team meetings and you can feel everyone internally rolling their eyes. Because even if the corporate is rolling up their sleeves and getting down in the mud with you, there is an invisible line somewhere that sometimes tips into the performative. Especially if a leader tries to downplay the privileges of their position or insist that they're just like you, even if they are not.

I think charisma is so difficult to master because it requires a very intricate balance of marrying individual authenticity with the collective needs of the group.

Not much extra to add to this, sassafras. So, yup.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

Nah, I think it's on point. Part of Charisma is creating social ease.

Wanted to reply on Hos' post with

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I think there's something to this.


Again looking back at my case, I was literally the most junior teacher in the school at first, coming up against 'leaders' who were very obviously just in it for themselves.

In fact, by way of example, I fought tooth and nail for a copy of the school budget and projections (especially payroll) using the FOI mechanism, and had all kinds of stalling done to try to stop me.

I had my line manager come to me to say that pursuing FOI requests against the school was 'unprofessional' and that I had to stop doing it, and I had to argue that this is a right that everyone has and it is highly inappropriate for her or anyone else to attempt to limit that. She ought to have been ashamed of even attempting, I felt, and had obviously been motivated to do it by her own leadership.

She was a 'keep the peace' coward in hoc to a vile cunt who himself had made her cry on multiple occasions.

So I kept pressing, and of course what I received back was the truth that the leadership team were using the monies saved on redundancies in order to pump their own salaries. In the case of the head, he had given himself a £20k rise, while the school was under immense workload and simply needed more teachers. They were attempting to sack people on 'competency' measures in order to pay themselves more, and subjecting these poor bastards (who were typically older, very experienced and competent teachers in a higher pay bracket) to reviews and lesson observations all conducted under their control.

I had to fight tooth and nail to have these competency proceedings carried out by external observers (I was also the union guy in the school, after the main rep had gone off sick with stress) and... surprise surprise the teachers were found to be perfectly competent.

I think people are able to sense predators, and yet they are often so terrified that they'll continue to follow their lead. When someone comes along who refuses this bs, however, they are given a glimmer of hope. In the case of my line manager, she sort of 'gave me the space' to do what I was doing without too much hassle because she wanted me to win. Whenever she'd been ordered to come down and discipline me after that, we'd have a short chat (fulfilling her duties/orders) and then she's let me be.

All it takes is a little light shone on the corruption before hope begins to grow in people.

Remembering all of this does make me feel very good. It was all worth it, though I was under immense pressure at the time.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

In terms of 'charisma', then, I'm convinced that a property like 'moral force' is a key element, otherwise you're just a showman.

I believe that what charisma is, is shorthand for all the evolutionary patterns by which the tribe selects its true leader, and a lot of that involves the recognition that such a leader would have their best interests at heart rather than being merely 'dominant' (thought that is necessary, too).

What we have today in the discourse about 'charisma' is instead geared towards usurping this evolutionary mechanism in order to fulfill selfish ends. It is focused on power projection and the manipulation of people's feelings in order to achieve your ends rather than our ends.

It's a corruption of everything it's there to do.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

So I kept pressing, and of course what I received back was the truth that the leadership team were using the monies saved on redundancies in order to pump their own salaries. In the case of the head, he had given himself a £20k rise, while the school was under immense workload and simply needed more teachers. They were attempting to sack people on 'competency' measures in order to pay themselves more, and subjecting these poor bastards (who were typically older, very experienced and competent teachers in a higher pay bracket) to reviews and lesson observations all conducted under their control.

In fact even remembering this makes me so irate. They were breaking people; destroying people, for new cars.

 

[dragulagu]

What we have today in the dialogue about 'charisma' is instead geared towards usurping this evolutionary mechanism in order to fulfill selfish ends. It is focused on power projection and the manipulation of people's feelings in order to achieve your ends rather than our ends.

It's a corruption of everything it's there to do.

It's currently a global issue, yeah.

 

[John K]

The more you do it, the more you become it, I think. Also, who you associate with, where you work, your life circumstances, etc. play a role. If you choose to thrive in an environment, as opposed to being bludgeoned by it, you eventually become energized by the things that allow you navigate that environment with ease. It becomes natural.

Though I'm thinking maybe we're blurring the lines between charisma and just social ease. What is the difference, do you think? Is there one?

I don't think myself that charisma and social ease have to be happy playmates - these can be very difficult people. Some of the great charismatic leaders have been possessed and energised by a vision that they have carried through against great opposition from their own people, and it's by force of their personalities, fired by zeitgeist, that they have done this. Not all of them are people who have led from the very front either, but have been most powerful influencers and opinion formers - people who have been the awkward conscience of their societies and times. I'd pick out John Adams as a prime example - a man who was surely one of the most significant visionaries of the American Revolution and the most courageous and constant in championing it up to the point that independence was declared.

The example that @Deleted member 16771 gave of the challenge he took on at his school is a similar thing.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I don't think myself that charisma and social ease have to be happy playmates - these can be very difficult people. Some of the great charismatic leaders have been possessed and energised by a vision that they have carried through against great opposition from their own people, and it's by force of their personalities, fired by zeitgeist, that they have done this. Not all of them are people who have led from the very front either, but have been most powerful influencers and opinion formers - people who have been the awkward conscience of their societies and times. I'd pick out John Adams as a prime example - a man who was surely one of the most significant visionaries of the American Revolution and the most courageous and constant in championing it up to the point that independence was declared.

The example that @Deleted member 16771 gave of the challenge he took on athis school is a similar thing.

Before the movement becomes conscious, there's an awful lot of...

'Just tow the line.'
'Play the game.'
'Focus on yourself.'

And you kind of have to be a persistent pain in the ass before the sticks in the mud begin to see, but sooner or later everyone comes 'round and suddenly you're at the head of a crusade.

(Sorry if people get tired of hearing about my experience, but it's how I'm connecting with this mostly).

 

[sassafras]

I don't think myself that charisma and social ease have to be happy playmates - these can be very difficult people. Some of the great charismatic leaders have been possessed and energised by a vision that they have carried through against great opposition from their own people, and it's by force of their personalities, fired by zeitgeist, that they have done this. Not all of them are people who have led from the very front either, but have been most powerful influencers and opinion formers - people who have been the awkward conscience of their societies and times. I'd pick out John Adams as a prime example - a man who was surely one of the most significant visionaries of the American Revolution and the most courageous and constant in championing it up to the point that independence was declared. .

Oh absolutely. It's about tapping into what the group needs and desires for themselves and having the courage to lead by example. People are drawn to others who inspire them and who will stand behind them. Having a strong, protector presence is a kind of charisma as well. It taps into the human desire to feel safe and cared for and a people who have felt trampled over will certainly rally around that.

 

[John K]

Oh absolutely. It's about tapping into what the group needs and desires for themselves and having the courage to lead by example. People are drawn to others who inspire them and who will stand behind them. Having a strong, protector presence is a kind of charisma as well. It taps into the human desire to feel safe and cared for and a people who have felt trampled over will certainly rally around that.

Do you think that charisma can attach to a role rather than a person? The Headmaster, or The Queen, or the Archbishop etc.

 

[sassafras]

Do you think that charisma can attach to a role rather than a person? The Headmaster, or The Queen, or the Archbishop etc.

EDIT - a part of my original post got deleted, which is probably why it didn't make sense::

I think there are people who follow a leader simply because they are a leader and an x number of people follow them, and therefore, everything they say has a certain weight. But then again, there are people who won't follow a leader simply because they are wanting to rebel against authority, or there's a big enough mob that opposes them, or because their favourite influencer has decided that they're trash. This says to me that charisma and influence can certainly exist outside a formal role.

I think charisma as a mechanism of influence and authority can sometimes have a cumulative effect. If you tap into the needs of a big enough group, or the right people believe in you, you can turn the head of the mob whichever way you want.

But if your role is devalued by the group you can simply stand in as a meaningless figurehead.

I think, though, we are starting to blur the lines between influence, power, and charisma. Which invites my next question: can you have power without charisma? I mean, look at Donald Trump. Many people are baffled by how he got elected. And yet... and yet... there is a strange charisma to him. Or perhaps you disagree.

Maybe this is a good topic of discussion:

Is Donald Trump charismatic?

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

Is Donald Trump charismatic?

 

[John K]

I think charisma as a mechanism of influence and authority can sometimes have a cumulative effect. If you tap into the needs of a big enough group, or the right people believe in you, you can turn the head of the mob whichever way you want.

But if your role is devalued by the group you can simply stand in as a meaningless figurehead.

I think, though, we are starting to blur the lines between influence, power, and charisma. Which invites my next question: can you have power without charisma? I mean, look at Donald Trump. Many people are baffled by how he got elected. And yet... and yet... there is a strange charisma to him. Or perhaps you disagree.

Maybe this is a good topic of discussion:

Is Donald Trump charismatic?

LOL judging by the adulation of his followers I'd say they think he has. He's the victim of the times isn't he because he seems to me to be empty of his own personality and filled with the collective mindset that voted him into power - when I say victim I don't mean someone to be pitied, but that he's not in control. He's like Zephod Beeblebrox in the Hitchhikers Guide - joke president of the universe without real power. Maybe things will change this year. His office has authority and respect despite all this - and it still has the power to awe or instill a sense of hegemonic security, but he's eroding these.

I guess on balance I'd say that he hasn't got charisma because he follows his collective support base rather than leads it - but I guess that may be hair splitting.

But what do I know

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

IRL I have passive charisma attributed to "otherworldliness" and things. But other (active) charisma is lacking.