Black Lives Matter and Systemic Racism | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

Black Lives Matter and Systemic Racism

Discussion in 'News and Politics' started by hithere, Jun 11, 2020.

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  1. noisebloom

    noisebloom theory conspirer
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    This in and of itself is problematic, though. Crime statistics rely on people calling the police. Have you ever lived in multiple cities, or multiple areas of cities, and wondered why sometimes reported crimes in areas considered more dangerous were actually less?

    It's because people often don't call the police. However, when someone is afraid enough, they will, which is why you'll often see a higher % of reported crimes when you get two different demographics living next to each other, and this can be racial, income-based, etc.

    If we were to isolate a hypothetical area of a town that was divided by a predominantly black and white neighboorhood, we may expect to see more reported crimes if we expect these groups to respond more in "fear" with each other. However, I would argue that the group that has a perception of mistrust/distrust in the police force would probably pick up the phone to call the cops much less frequently. It's not too far-fetched to assume that this hypothetical area of town would have more white people calling on cops than the other way around.
     
  2. Tamagochi

    Tamagochi Sushi Destroyer
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    I know of this one. It's actually a product of "positive" discrimination efforts by the left. The idea is that university enrolment should reflect the demographics of the population. So roughly 70% whites, 20% blacks and 10% asian. The "problem" is that asian people are very hard working consistently get higher scores than other groups. So they must be brought down in order to achieve the desired statistics. I agree that this is an example of intentional systemic racism, but not in a way that OP meant it.

    The video that I linked tells a story of how black people from Caribbean descent seems to defy that statistics, even though you can't tell them apart from african americans. So the real issue can be elsewhere: single parent families for example.

    College alone does not guarantee you a house or a high paying job. You have to account a lot when making such a comparison: family background (and financial support), individual work ethics, health issues etc.
    The same case is with the pay gap of men vs women.
     
  3. OP
    hithere

    hithere Community Member

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    I hear what you are saying, but I feel like you are missing my point.
    When an issue is being addressed I feel there should be absolute honesty in regards to the nature of an issue. If there isn't then I would think it's more likely then not for the issues to be addressed in ways that can be more damaging.
    (And I would venture to say that's part of what's happening with the riots.)

    Or maybe you do agree that blacks are being systematically targeted for demise?
     
  4. noisebloom

    noisebloom theory conspirer
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    The examination into why West Indians have historically had more "success" when it comes to law enforcement, home ownership, etc. is complex, but there is a lot of literature on this subject. One of the major themes is that West Indians were able to secure housing in white, middle-class neighborhoods with much more prevalence earlier in history. In fact, in the early 1900s, West Indians were permitted to live in "white only" neighborhoods in Harlem, NY. There is debate as to why this is, but the fact is that this inequality has most likely perpetuated into the modern era. I would argue that cultural and racial inequality goes beyond skin color (though it does make it easier for people to apply stereotypes without much information about a given individual). Italians were considered to be PoCs in the U.S. at one point, as well.

    It doesn't guarantee you a house or high paying on job, but on average, college graduates do make higher incomes than non-graduates. On average, the discrepancy between black college graduates and white dropouts is pretty compelling. If you don't believe that, I would be willing to bet that you could do comparisons of dropouts vs. graduates within a single race and see a very clear correlation... so when that correlation does not apply across races, this is concerning or worth examination.
     
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  5. noisebloom

    noisebloom theory conspirer
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    This is way off topic, but I got the Law and Order intros (pick your flavor) stuck in my head after I read this...
     
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  6. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition THANKS RUG

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    Let's assume your interpretation of the stats is correct and Larry Elder is correct and we can table the discussion of police brutality against Black people. Then we have to look at things such as racial bias that leads some prosecutors, for example, to file charges against African-Americans for low-level drug offenses more frequently than against whites, even though studies show that white people use illicit drugs at higher rates (this doesn't even get into racial profiling and the War on Drugs which there's a lot of debate about). Why are there studies indicating that White people are more likely to have charges dropped against them than Black people? There's also concerns that Black people get longer sentences than White people. I believe there are a few studies out on this specifically including this one: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3036726

    San Francisco is experimenting with Blind Charging for this reason to see if it makes a meaningful difference in this area. We will see what comes of that.

    Black people are also more often wrongly convicted for crimes as well.

    But if you want to put all that aside, we can think about what sociologist William Wilbanks says about this. His argument is that yes, there, are inequalities between White and Black people in arrest rates, incarceration and other areas of criminal justice but it's not necessarily racial, it's due to poverty. Assuming that's true then why is the rate of poverty so much higher among the Black population? There is a LOT to unpack there as well.
     
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  7. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition THANKS RUG

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    So far I am inclined to believe that yes, systemic racism exists.
     
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  8. OP
    hithere

    hithere Community Member

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    So are you saying that there is no difference between systemic racism and being systematically targeted for demise?

    Or are you saying that it doesn't matter?
     
  9. Hostarius

    Hostarius A L I G N

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    Oh there's evidence for it being systematic, too.

    John Ehrlichman (an aide to Nixon), for instance, admitted that the 'War on Drugs' was a measure specifically designed to target black people. You can find it quite easily.

    EDIT:
     
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    #29 Hostarius, Jun 12, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
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  10. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition THANKS RUG

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    There are a lot of studies linked in this article (I have read as many as I can) that leads me to believe that there are both systemic and systematic issues at hand:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...ce-evidence-criminal-justice-system/#Policing

    I am sure there are countless studies about this and I am sure people who do not believe there are systemic and/or systematic issues will be able to find studies that support their position as well however I have yet to come across those.
     
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  11. slant

    slant Ruby Adoraboobie

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    The idea that people discussing this issue amongst each other is productive, and furthermore, will somehow aid in solving the problem is one of the funniest things I've ever heard of in my life. How many conversations do we have to have about these topics before we realize all we are doing is chewing our own cud? Like cows. We feel satisfied but have accomplished nothing. It is the biggest trap social media has given us. It is the best way to feel good about yourself while doing absolutely nothing
     
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  12. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition THANKS RUG

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    It seems to me there are a lot of people doing a lot of things outside of talking about this online though. Maybe that's just what I see in my own network. Maybe there is just a bunch of empty talk. I couldn't say. We can only speak for our own selves.
     
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  13. slant

    slant Ruby Adoraboobie

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    Then why talk about it online at all?

    Why not just act? Seems like a waste of resources and time. Action would be far more impactful.
     
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  14. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition THANKS RUG

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    Probably because there are still too many people who think there's not a problem at all.
     
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  15. slant

    slant Ruby Adoraboobie

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    So it's better to discuss it online than to take actions in the real world towards change because there's too many people who do not think it's a problem at all?

    Online discussion will resolve this better than real world action?
     
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  16. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition THANKS RUG

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    WOAH, where did I even remotely suggest that?
     
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  17. slant

    slant Ruby Adoraboobie

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    Let's review. I asked you:
    You responded with:
    Can you see the confusion?
     
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  18. noisebloom

    noisebloom theory conspirer
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    Yeah it's not really productive, for the most part. I think I only do it because my life is lacking so much positive connection at the moment that I gravitate towards being an asshole and starting arguments when I see things that don't look right.
     
  19. SpecialEdition

    SpecialEdition THANKS RUG

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    I made a guess hence starting my response with "probably."

    Are you wasting your time by asking people why they're wasting their time having a discussion about it instead of acting?

    I don't know why people can't do both. There's value in having these conversations. If someone brings up a point from the other side of the argument that I haven't heard or don't have information on, then I can then take the time to actually look into it for myself and learn more. If I don't have the information, how do I know what I can actually do to be helping? How do I know who to vote for? How do I get the information needed to write to my MPP about my concerns? How do I encourage others to do the same without having a discussion? If there are a lot of people who don't think there's an issue and no one takes the time to share with them information to demonstrate that there is, then they may never change their mind and step up to the cause.

    Sharing information, reading the studies, engaging people with different ideas are all different forms of action. Protesting is a form of action. Voting for people who are about equality is taking action. Willing to engage in the discussion is an action. Is it the "right" action? Is it "enough" action? Is it performative and self congratulatory to talk about what action we're all taking or is it an opportunity to share with others what they can also do? I don't know.

    Is this response a waste of time?
     
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  20. Aneirin

    Aneirin AKA, David
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    thank you. .God bless you. . .
     
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