Berkley students protest affirmatie action with pay by race bake sale

[Air]

I feel a little uncomfortable just jumping right into this ehh, argument?. But I just wanted to say that the US is made up of many states and cities and that not all of them have an equal number of each race. Maybe affirmative action would work better if it was done on a city to city basis or something? I know that in my city there aren't very many of any minority and if you are a minority you can easily become a shoe in when you apply for a position due to affirmative action. I don't agree with discrimination personally and that really seems discriminatory to me.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Cool graph. Does very little to show actual racial differences by percentage in the countries. Considering somewhere around 75% of our country can only trace back their nativeness a few hundred years (if that), and somewhere around 13% come from a population forcibly relocated here, current immigration pales in comparison to our actual ethnic make-up.

Peachie-pie, immigration, yes. That happens. But Sweden hasn't had diversity all of the time - they've probably had recent immigration issues, but unless that lovely record includes everything back through the 1950s, I still don't see their data as completely relevant. If you can show me that Sweden and the United States are equal in all senses (population, culture, population growth, etc) then it might be an equal scale. But you're talking about a country that's about the size of California, compared to the United States as a whole. There cannot be an equal representation between the two nations. But you're right my little Slytherin; the system does need to be fixed - but calling people out for their color ain't the way to do it.

Well there are a few factors you are ignoring here because of the grass is greener principle, anyway, you are convinced you live in system you cannot improve and thus you will never improve it. Enjoy it; democracies mean that people get the government and systems they deserve, even if they are not what they want.

Sweden is a fascinating example because it is famously one of the most racist countries of the world in terms of policy (it was heavily national socialist until the 70s) and yet it has now decided to follow common sense to the letter to try to eliminate discrimination.

 

[bamf]

Well there are a few factors you are ignoring here because of the grass is greener principle, anyway, you are convinced you live in system you cannot improve and thus you will never improve it. Enjoy it; democracies mean that people get the government and systems they deserve, even if they are not what they want.

Sweden is a fascinating example because it is famously one of the most racist countries of the world in terms of policy (it was heavily national socialist until the 70s) and yet it has now decided to follow common sense to the letter to try to eliminate discrimination.

Ignoring what I said about your graph and how it doesn't necessarily apply to the arguement because it ignores far too many factors, well done. Putting words into my mouth, also well done.

Sweden very well could have been one of the most racists countries in the world and that they are now trying to eliminate discrimination. I never doubted you on that. Your graph on the other hand has nothing to do explicitly with racism, and it ignores the entire population make-up of both countries. Immigrants=first generation in the country. Their kids are no longer immigrants. Having a higher immigration percentage does not equate to more diversity, not by a long shot, and thus does not explicitly apply to racism which you seemed to be suggesting.

Also, where did I say the system I live in cannot be improved? I'm against AA, as I said. I expect better from you, IJ.

 

[Kanamori]

First of all I think that we could agree that race doesn't much of anything to do with intelligence. SAT/ACT aren't equally distributed among race. These and grades/curriculum, besides race, mostly determine entrance "merits". It's obvious that growing up in crappy neighborhoods and going to crappy local schools puts one at a disadvantage to having favorable merits for entrance -- obviously it isn't 1:1 causally related. However, I think that AA is meant to level the playing field and give those who benefit from AA more opportunities than they would have. It's about trying to break the cycle. Frankly, I don't know how much it actually helps, and fixing the root of the problem would be best -- however that seems unlikely to happen in the near future and there isn't much interest or effort devoted to making all schools better -- but this is in lieu of that and is meant to help fix the problem top-down.

 

[InvisibleJim]

Also, where did I say the system I live in cannot be improved? I'm against AA, as I said. I expect better from you, IJ.

I replied to two posts, not one.

 

[slant]

Listen, you have all got it quite wrong and twisted, and as I am running for student body officer of the INFJ forums (Aka dictator of the forum and world) I am here to set things clear!

Here are things you can expect me to pay special attention to in my campaign and thereafter:

1. Women who have three false wooden toes because their arch enemy ran them over with a taxi when they were trying to call a taxi but then the arch enemy stole it and so now the women has three false wooden toes

2. African Americans who enjoy the brand 'Rico Burritos' but just called every single Smith's and Harmons in their local area to find that they are no longer stocking them because the dumb company decided to go open up a dining place and that's all fine and dandy but they are home SICK because they got the flu and it's not like they are going to go drive to some dining place when they are sick, what do you expect us to do damnit

3. People who practice the Muslim faith who are sick and tired of the fact that they cannot find three-finger-rings on ebay--- what kind of country do we live in?! EVERYTHING is available on ebay and amazon.com, if it's not there, now what is left looking at every pawn shop and DI in the area?! COME ON!!!

4. Poor people who enjoy the television show "Law And Order SVU" and are pissed off that Stabler is quitting the next season

5. People from the asia countries that wish coffee wasn't so damn expensive. really, I gotta pay nearly six dollars for a cup of 16oz coffee! ASSHOLES, COFFEESHOPS, YOU ARE ASSHOLES!

6. Children with cleft lips.

Therefore, you should vote for me. I am excellent at paying special attention to minority groups, I just listed six of them!

 

[arbygil]

Well there are a few factors you are ignoring here because of the grass is greener principle, anyway, you are convinced you live in system you cannot improve and thus you will never improve it. Enjoy it; democracies mean that people get the government and systems they deserve, even if they are not what they want.

Sweden is a fascinating example because it is famously one of the most racist countries of the world in terms of policy (it was heavily national socialist until the 70s) and yet it has now decided to follow common sense to the letter to try to eliminate discrimination.

This still has nothing to do with that graph, though. Who said the system can't change? I've been saying I don't see another alternative, but that doesn't mean I'm not open to one. I said several times that if there were other options, I'd be open to hearing about them. Scroll back; you'll see it.

Again, Sweden hasn't had these problems long-term. It's relatively new for them, and they don't have have many minorities. If they're racist and they don't agree with affirmative action, then I wonder if they have many minorities in high profile jobs. To me, that's an equal injustice. But meh, maybe that's an ok thing to you, IJ.

 

[Feelings]

And I am saying it's my opinion - I don't find it funny. I'll say what I want to about it, but no it's not funny to me. What frustrates me is that these types of things perpetuate and it's ignored. The point never gets across in a positive way, and there are other ways of expressing such points than by calling out specific groups of people (whether AA or not).

I do recognize that others find it funny; to me it's not. Sure, I could have clarified that, but I'm not going to weaken my position on it. A lot of people ignore it, and that's fine for them. Me, I'll still have my opinion about it. Some people may be just as angry, and there's something to be said for their opinions as well.

I think your anger is misplaced. I don't think the students who held the bake sale were intending to come across as 'racist'. 'Racism' is the belief that any particular race is superior to another, or that a race should have an advantage or privilege over another. I don't think that was their message at all. They probably misunderstood the issues behind affirmitive action, but their intended message seemed to be that affirmitive action results in an unfair advantage for minorities.

To me, the very nature of what they're trying to do isn't spoofing anything; they're singling out specific people groups and putting value on them based on their own criteria.

I don't think their intention was to imply that minorities were of lesser value.

 

[InvisibleJim]

This still has nothing to do with that graph, though. Who said the system can't change?

You did. Twice.

and you have groups with restrictions they can't change.

Not with our court system.

The truth: If someone shows me they can and its worth doing then they will be allowed to do it. If this involves that they have better experience than another then good for them.

What affirmative action does is the opposite of the above, it forces a system where those who could don't because it isn't worth it due to discrimination against them and also that those who are favored intrinsically don't have to.

The correct thing is of course maximize specialization in the school system to pick out the most talent students regardless of age and channel them into their skill sets. But that's just not cricket in our outdated school systems which favour the lower common denominator.

You can keep supporting racism and sexism. I'll keep supporting individualism, self-respect and achievement. We can each observe the conclusions. Hint: I'm already smiling.

 

[GracieRuth]

I don't think their intention was to imply that minorities were of lesser value.

Exactly.

Look, there is a minority of racists in both the Democrat and Republican parties. However, neither party is inherently racist -- the kind of blatant open institutionalized racism is history in this country.

• We elected a black President.
• His has Jewish advisors.
• His Secretary of State is a woman.
• Most of the Justices on the Supreme Court are Catholic.

Come on! Let's cheer that we actually made some progress in one area.


It is a conceit of Democrats to charicaturize Replublicans as racist -- the truth is that Republicans want the free market to determine that the best qualified individual gets the job, gets the contract, gets the college scholarship, etc., without race being a factor. It is simply easier for liberals to paint conservatives with a racist brush than to actually deal with the arguments they make.

I am a pragmatist--I look to see what works. Personally, I think there was a time when AA was necessary to "jump start" a new norm (I certainly remember working for a racist corporation in the early 80s, and not being able to find anyone that would file suit). However, that time has passed. Today, the harm done by AA (descrimination against the qualified based on race, and the reputation of minorities getting credentials based on AA rather than qualifications) far outweighs any further benefit.

Let me add a personal experience with the corruption of entitlement:When I was younger, I did ShaoLin Kung Fu for seven years. There were three schools under the GrandMaster. My school treated women as though we were men, even though it is actually true that women have less muscle strength than men. One of the other schools segregated women from men so that women would never have to spar against a man. So at my school, I was routinely paired with guys who beat the crap out of me. When I went to test for my belts, the Grandmaster would pair me with a woman from another school. These other women had only had to fight against other women. The result was that they were wussy and I totally beat the crap out of THEM. I sent a poor little fragile asian chick flying across the room with a kick, and thought, "Oh shit! I did that???!!!" I guess what I'm saying is, making it easier for women worked to our detriment. What helped me succeed was having the higher bar.

 

[Billy]

Well, I can tell you what the answer isn't: affirmative action.

I would have said tell that the the growing black middle class, but the recession is murdering them more then the rest of us.

 

[Billy]

Dear people, its not a race thing, its a class thing. Just because some Supremes are Catholics doesnt mean anything, Sean Hannity is a Catholic underclass Irish boy who sold his roots the fuck out to be a big time conservative elite.

 

[Billy]

• We elected a black President.

• 
  
  This is what annoys me... white people who think that voting for Obama gives them a pass on racism. Its bullshit, the people who voted for Obama (white ones anyway) are some of the BIGGEST self denying racists on earth. They cheer Obama in public, but make sure their kids go to the nice white school away from all the blacks errr inner city/run down schools. BUt hey at least they have a remedy to that self hating white guilt, amirite?
  
  

  His has Jewish advisors.

  So? Since when does being friendly to the Jews mean anything for us? We have been bending over backwards for them since they took over Palestine from the brown people that actually have a blood tie to it, and we have been a target because of that support ever since.
  
  

  His Secretary of State is a woman.

  So was Queen Elizabeth?
  
  

  Most of the Justices on the Supreme Court are Catholic.

As was JFK, in the 60s.

Come on! Let's cheer that we actually made some progress in one area.

I find your cheer overly simplistic... Racism isnt dead, neither is hatred for Catholics or Jews, its a human condition to hate different groups... its pathetic and we aren't over it, and we really havent progressed THAT far, the only thing thats made life more tolerable has been technology. Take that away and you will have whites rampaging the streets killing nonwhites again because there wont be enough food to feed their white babies. Everything we know is held together by a thin string called technology and all our human baggage and ignorance is the weight its holding up, lets hope it doesn't break.

It is a conceit of Democrats to charicaturize Replublicans as racist -- the truth is that Republicans want the free market to determine that the best qualified individual gets the job, gets the contract, gets the college scholarship, etc., without race being a factor. It is simply easier for liberals to paint conservatives with a racist brush than to actually deal with the arguments they make.

Well there was a time when "the best man for the job" meant a white man. Especially for uppercrust elites in the GOP. The GOP has never been the party of the lower classes, its been the party of business, federal government, and the blue bloods, all 3 groups have been typically cruel to the lower classes, not just Blacks and nonwhites, include Irish, Italians, and Germans in that group as well.

I am a pragmatist--I look to see what works. Personally, I think there was a time when AA was necessary to "jump start" a new norm (I certainly remember working for a racist corporation in the early 80s, and not being able to find anyone that would file suit). However, that time has passed. Today, the harm done by AA (descrimination against the qualified based on race, and the reputation of minorities getting credentials based on AA rather than qualifications) far outweighs any further benefit.

Except you obviously have never been in on hiring people...

Certain people are still considered risks for jobs, blacks and latins specifically. It is truly my belief that if there wasnt a "quota" then they wouldnt get hired at all... for christs sake, look at the situation in the USA right now...

The recession is bad ok? its fucked up everyone is hungry... but SOME people are suffering worse then others, for example:

The unemployment rate for whites is around 8-9% thats 3-4% higher then the average 5% we usually carry nationally...

The unemployment rate for blacks is 18%! thats over 10% higher then the national average in good times of 5%... Latinos are around 17%

Looks like the 1st people to lose their jobs when the economy shit the bed was the Blacks and Latinos, and you are going to sit there and act like everything is ok? We live in a different age? They literally arent employing blacks and latinos right now in a business sense, Whites have it tough but can still land the jobs.

Let me add a personal experience with the corruption of entitlement:When I was younger, I did ShaoLin Kung Fu for seven years. There were three schools under the GrandMaster. My school treated women as though we were men, even though it is actually true that women have less muscle strength than men. One of the other schools segregated women from men so that women would never have to spar against a man. So at my school, I was routinely paired with guys who beat the crap out of me. When I went to test for my belts, the Grandmaster would pair me with a woman from another school. These other women had only had to fight against other women. The result was that they were wussy and I totally beat the crap out of THEM. I sent a poor little fragile asian chick flying across the room with a kick, and thought, "Oh shit! I did that???!!!" I guess what I'm saying is, making it easier for women worked to our detriment. What helped me succeed was having the higher bar.

And yet had people not complained, you never would have been allowed to take kung fu at all... in fact I am betting that if they could get away with it and still make money these Kung Fu schools wouldnt employ women at all, Chinese culture can be excruciatingly misogynist at times, especially when it comes to protecting their cultural treasures like Kung Fu.

 

[Soulful]

@GracieRuth

I preface my point with an 'IMHO'.

Although progress deserves to be acknowledged, I hesitate to hail Obama's presidency as a victory, an end-point so to speak, on race matters in the U.S. The fact that (some of) the country elected a black man to the Oval Office does not negate the racism that is in place and the insidious effects of past racism that continue to trickle down, and it SHOULD NOT, as far as I'm concerned. It's frightening, to me, to hear this argument in place. Racism still persists, only in different ways. The same thing can be applied to the argument of a woman occupying a high-level position, and can be said about sexism and other forms of prejudice.

There are also interesting discussions (that have been had/are had) around the authenticity of Obama's race, and whether he's "black enough".

 

[GracieRuth]

There are also interesting discussions (that have been had/are had) around the authenticity of Obama's race, and whether he's "black enough".

This is not meant to be offensive, but those kind of discussions just make me laugh. In an objective sense, there is no such thing as race, unless you mean the human race. There are, however, cultural ethicities. If the question is, "Is Obama a black guy from an American inner city or some racist rural area?" Then the answer is NO. His life simply has a different set of experiences. His election is interesting ONLY in the sense that it shows a change in white middle class american attitudes, that they are no longer going to make electorial decisions based on skin color.

Oh, and I'm fine with disagreeing agreeably. I tend to state my opinions very strong, but they are, after all, just my opinons.

 

[Billy]

His election is interesting ONLY in the sense that it shows a change in white middle class american attitudes, that they are no longer going to make electorial decisions based on skin color.

LOL Thats exactly what they did... they made a race based election vote, to assuage their guilty white consciences... and not too long after you see a spike in racist rhetoric about black people needing to get it together now, because the president is black... as though that was what was holding them back all this time...

 

[Gaze]

We can't really say we have real or true equality when, despite having access to similar opportunities in some not all areas, people of color are still expected (without it being expressly said) to work twice or thrice as hard to prove they are worthy or deserving of the job.

 

[Kanamori]

Let me add a personal experience with the corruption of entitlement:When I was younger, I did ShaoLin Kung Fu for seven years. There were three schools under the GrandMaster. My school treated women as though we were men, even though it is actually true that women have less muscle strength than men. One of the other schools segregated women from men so that women would never have to spar against a man. So at my school, I was routinely paired with guys who beat the crap out of me. When I went to test for my belts, the Grandmaster would pair me with a woman from another school. These other women had only had to fight against other women. The result was that they were wussy and I totally beat the crap out of THEM. I sent a poor little fragile asian chick flying across the room with a kick, and thought, "Oh shit! I did that???!!!" I guess what I'm saying is, making it easier for women worked to our detriment. What helped me succeed was having the higher bar.

AA isn't based on evening inherent differences but between people who have circumstantial differences, like where you were born and what schools you went to. People can definitely overcome circumstantial disadvantages, but that shows that they have something even more than the people who have circumstantial advantages compared to them.

 

[arbygil]

I think your anger is misplaced. I don't think the students who held the bake sale were intending to come across as 'racist'. 'Racism' is the belief that any particular race is superior to another, or that a race should have an advantage or privilege over another. I don't think that was their message at all. They probably misunderstood the issues behind affirmitive action, but their intended message seemed to be that affirmitive action results in an unfair advantage for minorities.

I don't know if it's truly misplaced, though; I think there's a place for it. Perhaps it's because I've seen so much of this, and certain sides really don't understand why people get angry at all. I think their message could've been done in a tasteful way. Whether intended or not, the implication could be taken either way - and if there's room for ambiguity, I think it's best to err on the side of caution.

I don't think their intention was to imply that minorities were of lesser value.

It did feel as if that student group devalued their importance, though. Communally speaking, it's easy to see minorities as separate from the everyday; it's much harder to see them as the same as anyone else. By highlighting their differences instead of highlighting their strengths, it called attention to their race rather than their character or abilities. That's what I didn't like.

There could have been other ways that they presented their message that were less inflammatory. Of course other ways wouldn't have given them so much attention, but there you have it.

 

[arbygil]

You did. Twice.




The truth: If someone shows me they can and its worth doing then they will be allowed to do it. If this involves that they have better experience than another then good for them.

What affirmative action does is the opposite of the above, it forces a system where those who could don't because it isn't worth it due to discrimination against them and also that those who are favored intrinsically don't have to.

The correct thing is of course maximize specialization in the school system to pick out the most talent students regardless of age and channel them into their skill sets. But that's just not cricket in our outdated school systems which favour the lower common denominator.

You can keep supporting racism and sexism. I'll keep supporting individualism, self-respect and achievement. We can each observe the conclusions. Hint: I'm already smiling.

You can smile all you want, but your thinking is a bit 1950s. You're assuming that if we got rid of AA that everyone would be treated equally. I also said I wish that there are other ways - but our CURRENT circumstances don't give us any. So don't go back on my words or put other words in my mouth. I think you're putting too much faith in the system as well. Of course I don't support racism or sexism; but we have different ways of looking at things. You have a limited view of racism, IMO; it doesn't fit into neat little boxes that AA or no AA will fix. No graph can explain it. No nice epithets will explain it. You have one idea, and that's great. But you're not giving any solutions other than abolishing it. But abolishing it outright will not change the problems that happened before AA occurred. Not in the US - not the way things CURRENTLY stand.

I'd quite like to hear what [MENTION=1425]Korg[/MENTION] has in mind; he actually mentioned that he has some possibilities that could create a balance.