Are Asperger's/ADHD/Autism Bullshit Diagnoses or Manmade Illness?

[Cornerstone]

It can be argued that many mental health conditions are exacerbated by stress so it is fair to say that maybe regular trips somewhere like Yosemite would be more beneficial to a child with ADHD than medication and attempting to force them to fit into a social order they aren't cut out for. Most arguments about mental health, at least the ones I have, tend to come down to a discussion of capitalism/consumerism eventually. To what extent can we remove unnecessary stress from our lives? What impact would that have? Being treated as a unique individual is beneficial to mental health. I don't think there is any law or social system that can provide this though. We just have to treat the person next to us as a unique individual and hope it has a ripple effect.

Love that someone mentioned Bedlam. We have a museum with all bits and bobs from the bad old days on the grounds. Also, some amazing artwork by patients over the years.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I'm sorry for my flippant response earlier, but it was late and I couldn't be bothered to address the nonsense.

I did want to say, though, that I tend to fall into the camp that tends to believe that a lot of these 'disorders' are in some sense evolutionarily adaptive - especially in terms of group selection. In any case that they still exist indicates that they aren't particularly maladaptive.

The link between depressives and creativity is becoming clearer, for example, as is the correlation between autism and higher than average IQ, as @Lady Jolanda pointed out.

In these and a multitude of other cases, the adaptive advantage of non-neurotypical people is obvious, which is to say that in terms of the species as a whole, they aren't really 'deficient' at all. In fact it may be the case that a healthy group needs neuro diversity like this in order to function properly, and maybe that even includes a representation of the more unsettling conditions, like psychopathy.

 

[John K]

Hey y'all

Here's something I've been pondering for a while.

With all the news of vaccines causing autism (which sounds more than plausible) it makes me think.

100 years ago, autism, aspergers, ADHD and all that was damn near unheard of.

With the incorporation of fluoride in our water, additives in our foods, GMOs, and vaccines, is it only coincidental that autism/aspergers is now a household word?

On the other hand, I have a feeling that Asperger's (bare minimum) and ADHD for sure is a bullshit diagnosis

Big pharma is a money mill. Every person that can be prescribed meds is fair game.

You don't like to talk much? Aspergers
You like one hobby that you focus intensely on? Aspergers
Repetitive movement? Aspergers
Can't keep still? ADHD. Take your meth little one!

That's all Adderall is...meth without the drain cleaner and battery acid.

What are the effects, long term of these meds and diagnoses?

Well, in adults we know that long term SSRI use can affect your liver, kidneys, brain. Virtually everything
Use of stimulants (i.e. Desoxyn, Adderall, etc) are extremely taxing on the cardiovascular system.

And nearly every drug addict I've met was prescribed psychotropics as a child.

Paxil damn near made me commit suicide. I'm definitely not alone in that side effect. I had never been suicidal before Paxil and haven't been since.

Last of all, what are the social stigmas of being told you are autistic or special at a young age?

I know that when I was growing up, school officials tried saying I am ADHD. Put me on all kinds of shit until my mom put a stop to it.

I was the quiet type. Smart. Loved playing outside.

My mom took me to Yosemite every weekend, where I learned to enjoy nature in my so called "hyperactive state"
I opened up around those of a blue collar much easier. And frankly, that journey led me to where I am today

Am I on any medications? Only to control my migraines, which are a result of a traumatic braim injury I had last year.
That's it.

Do I have Asperger's? Definitely not.
Do I have ADHD? No.
Am I high sprung? Fuck yeah. I always have to have something to do.
Does the above question impact my life? No. It's only bettered it. I am a social butterfly and I like it that way

I'm just saying... Maybe it's time a new look gets taken at psychiatry, the things we put in our bodies as a whole too.

Any input? Are these so called mental illnesses a product of what we put in our bodies, or mere psuedoscience and greed?

Quite a lot has already been said about the science and medical theory that underpins our knowledge of autism, Asperger’s and ADHD so I'll come at them from a different angle. I think anyone with a degree of empathic sensibility immediately realises when they come into contact with someone who has one of these conditions - it just takes a few seconds of interaction. We might not have an immediate label for it, but we know there is something different. It's there in the body language, the facial expression, the lack of response to humour, the literality - the strange combination of pure logic, a lack of empathy in the other but their total objective acceptance of you that you only ever get from some of these guys. It's not just these things - it goes deeper than that, but in ways less easy to express. You just know they are different, and if you are sympathetic as well empathic, you find you can adapt to their world view enough to get alongside them. I think it's the way we adapt to them that tells me this is not some condition that's induced by modern circumstances or has been induced by the stuff we come into contact with these days, or invented by the pharmas. The way I adapt to these guys feels archaic - I'm afraid I can't express it more clearly than that, but it's as though these are natural alternative ways of relating to the world.

I had measles as a child, long before the vaccines were developed. I was off school for 3 weeks and I was left with a very slight hearing impairment from it. It's not a mild illness like chickenpox usually is - it's not a nice illness at all and can leave permanent damage or kill. Every preventative action brings some risk, but autism isn't one of them with the MMR vaccine. It's like seatbelts in car - they can cause you harm but the chances of this are way, way less than the certainty of serious damage if you go head first through your windscreen in a smash. Anyone who refuses to use a seatbelt is an idiot - criminally so if they refuse to secure their children with a seatbelt. I can't in all honesty see there is much difference in principle.

Maybe you were really reacting against your own personal circumstances when you wrote this post, but expressing it partly in sweeping general terms? Personally, I think these are real conditions, bearing in mind that most medical labels are simplifications and models of very complex situations. I'm sure too that MMR does not cause autism, and any other slight risks from the vaccine are minute compared with the risks the diseases carry. I have a huge sympathy for the idea that some people are born with an orientation to the world that is different to the main stream and doesn't fit into it well. Some of these people will quite naturally behave in ways that are challenging for others to cope with or relate to. The way society in general, and the health services in particular, respond to these guys seems to me to be inadequate. Stuffing them full of drugs to try and make them 'normal' seems chauvinistic to me apart from people who are severely impaired by their condition to the point they are completely dependent on others.

 

[Gadsden Mountain Ranch]

Quite a lot has already been said about the science and medical theory that underpins our knowledge of autism, Asperger’s and ADHD so I'll come at them from a different angle. I think anyone with a degree of empathic sensibility immediately realises when they come into contact with someone who has one of these conditions - it just takes a few seconds of interaction. We might not have an immediate label for it, but we know there is something different. It's there in the body language, the facial expression, the lack of response to humour, the literality - the strange combination of pure logic, a lack of empathy in the other but their total objective acceptance of you that you only ever get from some of these guys. It's not just these things - it goes deeper than that, but in ways less easy to express. You just know they are different, and if you are sympathetic as well empathic, you find you can adapt to their world view enough to get alongside them. I think it's the way we adapt to them that tells me this is not some condition that's induced by modern circumstances or has been induced by the stuff we come into contact with these days, or invented by the pharmas. The way I adapt to these guys feels archaic - I'm afraid I can't express it more clearly than that, but it's as though these are natural alternative ways of relating to the world.

I had measles as a child, long before the vaccines were developed. I was off school for 3 weeks and I was left with a very slight hearing impairment from it. It's not a mild illness like chickenpox usually is - it's not a nice illness at all and can leave permanent damage or kill. Every preventative action brings some risk, but autism isn't one of them with the MMR vaccine. It's like seatbelts in car - they can cause you harm but the chances of this are way, way less than the certainty of serious damage if you go head first through your windscreen in a smash. Anyone who refuses to use a seatbelt is an idiot - criminally so if they refuse to secure their children with a seatbelt. I can't in all honesty see there is much difference in principle.

Maybe you were really reacting against your own personal circumstances when you wrote this post, but expressing it partly in sweeping general terms? Personally, I think these are real conditions, bearing in mind that most medical labels are simplifications and models of very complex situations. I'm sure too that MMR does not cause autism, and any other slight risks from the vaccine are minute compared with the risks the diseases carry. I have a huge sympathy for the idea that some people are born with an orientation to the world that is different to the main stream and doesn't fit into it well. Some of these people will quite naturally behave in ways that are challenging for others to cope with or relate to. The way society in general, and the health services in particular, respond to these guys seems to me to be inadequate. Stuffing them full of drugs to try and make them 'normal' seems chauvinistic to me apart from people who are severely impaired by their condition to the point they are completely dependent on others.

@JohnK, sorry to hear about the measles. That fucking sucks!

Yes, understood on that. I've definitely met aspies. 99.9% of them are very genuine people. If you can see through the fact, as mentioned that they don't get humor or show much empathy. You're definitely correct to say they look at things objectively

Maybe I should have worded my post different in hindsight, but I've also met people who state they have Asperger's, yet function just as neurotypical as the other 99% of us. As in, you look at them and say "What autism? Was this damn doc smokin crack when he diag'd this shit?"

That's basically my takeaway.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

What autism?

Spectrum

 

[Gadsden Mountain Ranch]

I'm sorry for my flippant response earlier, but it was late and I couldn't be bothered to address the nonsense.

I did want to say, though, that I tend to fall into the camp that tends to believe that a lot of these 'disorders' are in some sense evolutionarily adaptive - especially in terms of group selection. In any case that they still exist indicates that they aren't particularly maladaptive.

The link between depressives and creativity is becoming clearer, for example, as is the correlation between autism and higher than average IQ, as @Lady Jolanda pointed out.

In these and a multitude of other cases, the adaptive advantage of non-neurotypical people is obvious, which is to say that in terms of the species as a whole, they aren't really 'deficient' at all. In fact it may be the case that a healthy group needs neuro diversity like this in order to function properly, and maybe that even includes a representation of the more unsettling conditions, like psychopathy.

Actually, Deleted member 16771, you might have just nailed the board right now.

Maybe most of these aspies and ADHD folks aren't deficient as you mention

Can they benefit from finding their niche?
Can they benefit from not being on drugs their whole life?
More than likely

 

[Puzzlenuzzle]

This kinda touches a nerve
I got ADHD but I wouldn't say that I'm deficient.. and I actually don't think that anyone is. Nobody is deficient, we all meet the world the same way and our fate is the same.
People come in different shapes and forms. If we all were the same then life would be incredibly boring, and there would be no advancements or changes in the world. However, don't take the above vent too seriously. I do, enjoy that there is an open discussion as without it the world is filled with pre-assumptions that do nobody any good. So there is that..

However, here is my experience on it:
growing up I thought that I was a broken-kid that should never have been born, I wanted to die most of my childhood, and I used to sympathise with my family for having me because I was different.
I could feel how I was sometimes judged when I would zone out... or just judged for 'having it', and still to this day when I say I got ADHD.. I am met at times with pre assumptions and often told '..but you can focus!' or 'how?? you don't seem really hyper' or 'but you...bleughbleuh'.

It takes a while to accept yourself, and learn to manage your random strengths and weaknesses..

It took a while to learn that I get #restless when I need mental stimulation or to go out for a walk or something.

Took a while to learn that when I can't maintain attention I need to find something difficult that I want to analyse (that motivates me to learn the other stuff as I need to know that before getting in the difficult bit).

It took me a while to learn that sometimes I go into #involuntary meditation.

Took a while to accept that I'm sometimes overly #sensitive.

I used to get into endless troubles with my friends for being nice to someone I was meant to ignore or wasn't meant to be nice to (ignoring the box), or quickly jumping in to stop people from arguing.

Took a while to realise that I can't talk to everyone and that sometimes I just feel #lonely, I mean.. I was the kid that would interrogate my parents with endless why's and how's - one of my most precious memories of my father was snuggling with him in the sofa while he explained gravity to me.. it made me so happy...felt like #utopia, and discussing life with him while I had a bath, and having him proof to me that my theories were wrong e.g. I had the wild idea that what we see in the mirror isn't 100% accurate (I was wondering about perspectives and illusions) etc..
.
Took me a while to learn that the H doesn't mix to well when I'm #scared.

Took a while to calm my #spirit down when my loved ones are in trouble or sad.

Took a while to understand that #anxiety isn't a normal feeling.

Took a while to accept that sometimes I am #forgettful.

Took a while to accept that sometimes I just say the most #random thing and that's OK.

Took a while to #navigate waters when my focus is playing up. e.g. sometimes when I'm being spoken to I feel this wave of meh about to happen.. I usually excuse myself and go to the toilet or something lol, take a breath and find my bearings so, I won't insult someone by seeming to not be interested. I am! My brain just decided to give me a random meh.

#master troubleshooter.

ADHD is the #devil though when sadness kicks in as it amplifies it like its being paid to but then I think it also amplifies joy.

ADHD can be a #saint when it comes to cheering someone up.

I dunno.. there are plenty of more strengths and weaknesses. Although, there is a lot of self-criticism that goes with it.

I'm quick though to come up with new things to do or ideas. Nothing makes me happier than a brain-tickle unless I'm stuck in a sad loop.. then I feel like I'm in limbo.
I see most things I'm told visually.
My brain looks kind of like a mind map... or well operates that way.
I'm sometimes like a little kid .. "hey, what you doing? hmm.. want to watch Pocahontas or do you need to talk?", "should we paint and do handprints?", "can I paint you like one of my French girls?"
Next minute I sound ancient.
I can be really random.....
My mind is always racing and when I hyper focus I can.. sound like a rapper.

There is one thing though that people should understand more, or few things..
1) with ADHD when you don't feel too good for no apparent reason, your H can kick in or you can force it to kick in. All the H-happy does is create a false feeling of joy or receptivity for the good little things around you.. probably a placebo to increase dopamine.
2) there are numerous types of ADHD
3) with most ADHD there is an increased susceptibility for depression and anxiety.

I don't know how ADHD I am though..

Mind over matter.

disclaimer: I only hashtag for giggles... and I did use it now so nobody would feel like I'm bashing them .. y'know cause I started by saying it touched a nerve

 

[Melt]

Maybe I should have worded my post different in hindsight, but I've also met people who state they have Asperger's, yet function just as neurotypical as the other 99% of us. As in, you look at them and say "What autism? Was this damn doc smokin crack when he diag'd this shit?"

Autism is a spectrum disorder. No two people with autism are the same. In fact, there's a huge difference between males with autism and females with autism. Females with autism tend to be "chameleons." People tell them they seem "normal" and question their diagnoses. As one of them, I can tell you that more is going on beneath the surface. We do not think the same way you do. Our perspectives are entirely different. Chameleons learn what the average expectations of people are and use that knowledge to cause less of a scene. I highly recommend letting the licensed psychologists do their work in this area. They are trained to try to understand people with different perspectives (and then some) after all.

 

[JennyDaniella]

I've also met people who state they have Asperger's, yet function just as neurotypical as the other 99% of us.

Hence why it is a spectrum. There are different varying levels of severity.

If you met my loved one, you wouldn’t notice he has Asperger’s, but he does.

Also have to mention, he is attending a neurofeedback therapy for his ADHD and his therapist concluded Asperger’s pretty much is becoming known to be separate of Autism considering the fact Aspergers affects certain parts of the brain rather than Autism that affects spread out throughout all parts. So...yeah. Had to mention that as well.

 

[Melt]

Also have to mention, he is attending a neurofeedback therapy for his ADHD and his therapist concluded Asperger’s pretty much is becoming known to be separate of Autism considering the fact Aspergers affects certain parts of the brain rather than Autism that affects spread out throughout all parts. So...yeah. Had to mention that as well.

That would explain why people with Asperger's are better with languages early on (even to the point that they are hyperlexic). Where did you learn that they are trying to separate Asperger's and Autism? They removed Asperger's from the DSM. I'm probably outdated.

 

[JennyDaniella]

That would explain why people with Asperger's are better with languages early on (even to the point that they are hyperlexic). Where did you learn that they are trying to separate Asperger's and Autism? They removed Asperger's from the DSM. I'm probably outdated.

The therapist mentioned it when I was over there at the clinic a couple months ago.

 

[Gadsden Mountain Ranch]

Hence why it is a spectrum. There are different varying levels of severity.

If you met my loved one, you wouldn’t notice he has Asperger’s, but he does.

Also have to mention, he is attending a neurofeedback therapy for his ADHD and his therapist concluded Asperger’s pretty much is becoming known to be separate of Autism considering the fact Aspergers affects certain parts of the brain rather than Autism that affects spread out throughout all parts. So...yeah. Had to mention that as well.

Yeah I heard it has separated off since the invent of the DSM V.
Don't get me wrong, I read the DSM IV TR WWWWAAAYYY back.

The new disorders in the fifth.... Internet addiction, etc blow my mind

Just a blanket of new shit

It's like all 7 billion of us are fucked in the head somehow when you read it LOL

 

[Ifur]

The McDonalds model of child rearing where disinfectants and sterilising agents are given to children, erh I mean, adding prescription drugs to food -- damn where did it go wrong?

Opting out of school was an option in the past, Isaac Newton would probably be autistic by today's standards and pressure to focus on school.

Would some people with Asperger not be diagnose able if they spent more time outdoors working with others in an environment were strict routines aren't possible?

 

[Gadsden Mountain Ranch]

The McDonalds model of child rearing where disinfectants and sterilising agents are given to children, erh I mean, adding prescription drugs to food -- damn where did it go wrong?

Opting out of school was an option in the past, Isaac Newton would probably be autistic by today's standards and pressure to focus on school.

Would some people with Asperger not be diagnose able if they spent more time outdoors working with others in an environment were strict routines aren't possible?

More than likely. I hated Los Angeles to an extent. I like to visit my brothers when i can. Westfield Topanga mall is cool. LAX is so much fun to go plane spotting. Otherwise, I start to miss it. Then I go down, hit traffic in Santa Clarita and go "Fuck. Ok. can I go back to Fresno now?"

I found my niche of people in the Sierra Nevada Foothills and Fresno/ Central Valley in general.

You couldn't pay me to move back to Ventura/LA.

Why? I can walk in a bar in Mariposa or Clovis and get along with anyone

Put me in a bar in Camarillo, I'll be the quiet kid in the corner, so to speak.

Sometimes it's the environment, not the diagnosis

Education...er, we need doctors, lawyers, engineers yes.
Me? I'm self taught. I test at roughly a 130IQ. I'm no genius, but I'm not stupid.
Isaac Newton would probably be on meds if he was alive

If that answers your question

 

[Ifur]

Me? I'm self taught. I test at roughly a 130IQ. I'm no genius, but I'm not stupid.

You know this is a contraindication for Autism and therefore Asperger unless considered a personality trait by maladjustment.
In Medicine these things matter, that doesn't prevent psychologist and psychiatrist to think otherwise for the sake of therapy and try something.
This is how you get prescriptions that in many cases only makes matters worse.
You imply that you may have Asperger, but this is medically extremely unlikely; maladjustment is probably the only issue.
Historically psychologists and therapist would be able to help with something like this, instead they form opinions contrary to medical science and fact for things that are covered by insurance.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

Are these traits are more prevalent in modern times, I don't know. There are many traits of the mind we'd call an illness simply because we don't like it. There are plenty of traits in everyone which get in the way of having an ideal experience in life. Whether you call it an illness is simple a decision drawing an arbitrary line in the sand, despite the justifications why its drawn where it is.

 

[Ifur]

All of these things traces itself back to the industrial revolution, pretty much.
Where it was important to teach book keeping skills and engineering skills.
Not to mention reading letters, contracts and boards.

For most of diagnosis like ADHD and Autisme it can be medically diagnosed today.
Which implies fMRI and related imaging, not ONLY IQ tests that was initially created to study mental age and actual age discrepancies in detail to determine "learning disability".

For Autisme the signs are hyperactivity in a part of the brain, which empirically confirms the "inner world" description of the disorder.
Some things cannot be learned by excessively organising thoughts to deal with the situation as there is a larger awareness required.

Today they send kids to get meds rather than sending them to the wood shop where they keep focus and find things fun and enjoyable.

Where the bullshit comes heavily into play is studying medical literature about disorders and conditions that have become excessively rare.
As they were historically often caused by things like syphilis or brain damaging fevers.
For all diagnosis, the main problem is that without exception, it's not a disorder with or without underlying disease without it being document able from testing and medical imaging.
Also, Autisme cannot be diagnosed unless normal or below average intelligence -- cannot be gifted. Cognitive hyperactivity where there are only environmental and developmental causes to explain it is called Asperger today.

In many cases kids are treated for problems they don't have that in some ways "leaves a hole in the mind", and they my have crawled into a corner to begin, emotionally and cognitively.

Or to put it in other words, many therapist and psychologist employ methods intended and created to manage a deteriorating mental condition caused by a degenerative disease. Then it follows that, "it's difficult to treat these patients and make them better", and, "it's very important to dusty the process and development of the conditions".

The latest breakthrough and news concerning Autism especially is that there are quite a few with symptoms that qualify for Asperger in Silicon Valley among those that spend excessive amounts of time on a narrow interest. Where it comes as shock and amazement that couples that have the right preferences to spend excessive amounts of time in a narrow field have higher chances to get autistic children compared to the general population, as if these personality traits were inheritable along with facial expressions.

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

Quick glance over this thread and already annoyed as some here are clueless being typical these days especially of the older generations that are frankly toxic towards anyone who doesn't fit the societal norm let alone meet the sometimes unrealistic expectations. It is easy to judge and as a judgmental person I've had to learn lessons that were not comfortable nor were easy having to learn what it is like to be in the shoes of others so to speak this being one of them. Frankly the people who think all of this is BS are idiots as they have very little to no capacity to conceptualize and empathize with others who have different life situations beyond their own experiences.

 

[Ifur]

Quick glance over this thread and already annoyed as some here are clueless being typical these days especially of the older generations that are frankly toxic towards anyone who doesn't fit the societal norm let alone meet the sometimes unrealistic expectations. It is easy to judge and as a judgmental person I've had to learn lessons that were not comfortable nor were easy having to learn what it is like to be in the shoes of others so to speak this being one of them. Frankly the people who think all of this is BS are idiots as they have very little to no capacity to conceptualize and empathize with others who have different life situations beyond their own experiences.

Your intuition didn't help towards poetic articulation and simplification, rather, you may need to be a bit more specific and to not ride your superficial senses so inarticulately -- I do that a lot myself.

(edit: grading on a general verbal diarrhea, likes to message ratio says I'm worse, go figure).

So another edit, as I realise this actually might be a bit of a Fi and Se trait with Ni as leading.
Not to discuss type to much, but let's say it's hard to argue Ti here, but that Te might want to go places.
By thinking you are INFJ, as Ni doesn't seem questionable to my impressions of this.
Could you ble lazy where you should rather let pass until something a bit more structured Fi shows itself? You were expression something personally? Without rhythm and flow?

I'll prove my point: "Quick glance over this thread and already annoyed as some here are clueless being typical these days especially of the older generations that are frankly toxic towards anyone who doesn't fit the societal norm let alone meet the sometimes unrealistic expectations."

Quick glance over,
this thread and already;
annoyed as some here!
clueless being, typical.
these days especially,
of the older generations.
they are frankly toxic,
towards anyone, who:
doesn't fit the societal.
let alone meet;
the sometimes unrealistic:
expectations.

Could have made more effort not changing a word and just punctuation and breaks.
If I'm INTJ, what are you? Or am I wrong?

I know I am doing much of the same, and it's riding senses or some other and such.
Should some people just speak or write in poetry or not at all?

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

Your intuition didn't help towards poetic articulation and simplification, rather, you may need to be a bit more specific and to not ride your superficial senses so inarticulately -- I do that a lot myself.

(edit: grading on a general verbal diarrhea, likes to message ratio says I'm worse, go figure).

So another edit, as I realise this actually might be a bit of a Fi and Se trait with Ni as leading.
Not to discuss type to much, but let's say it's hard to argue Ti here, but that Te might want to go places.
By thinking you are INFJ, as Ni doesn't seem questionable to my impressions of this.
Could you ble lazy where you should rather let pass until something a bit more structured Fi shows itself? You were expression something personally? Without rhythm and flow?

I'll prove my point: "Quick glance over this thread and already annoyed as some here are clueless being typical these days especially of the older generations that are frankly toxic towards anyone who doesn't fit the societal norm let alone meet the sometimes unrealistic expectations."

Quick glance over,
this thread and already;
annoyed as some here!
clueless being, typical.
these days especially,
of the older generations.
they are frankly toxic,
towards anyone, who:
doesn't fit the societal.
let alone meet;
the sometimes unrealistic:
expectations.

Could have made more effort not changing a word and just punctuation and breaks.
If I'm INTJ, what are you? Or am I wrong?

Bleep bop boop! This is one of the reasons why I don't like your type due to lacking any real empathy and emotional depth towards others.