Are Asperger's/ADHD/Autism Bullshit Diagnoses or Manmade Illness? | Page 4 | INFJ Forum

Are Asperger's/ADHD/Autism Bullshit Diagnoses or Manmade Illness?

Assuming I have permission to ask this given the:

if you have a specific question- I’ll try to answer that

Having said the above- by your interpretation of all of what has been posted - you are misusing the clinical word “disorder” in your thinking. When clinicians use the word disorder it means there are patterns of behavioral or psychological symptoms that impact multiple areas of life. Period. It is not a judgement on the worthiness of an individual nor is it a representation of all that may or may not be beneficial if society was structured differently. In this society, with these social, economic, Relationships, familial, and just getting the fuck along standards- these behavior and symptom patterns cause significant issues. For instance, Post Traumatic Stress “Disorder” is pretty goddamned adaptive if there is ongoing threats around every corner- not so much if the behaviors are happening at a restaurant or on a date, or at work in an office where threats are only perceived. The debate about it being a “disorder” or not Is taking the clinical word we use as a baseline definition used for diagnostic purposes- out of context.

Do you believe a disorder has to have a neurological component to it to be real, or would you say the reasoning mentioned in this paragraph is the only necessary bit?
 
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Do you believe a disorder has to have a neurological component to it to be real, or would you say the reasoning mentioned in this paragraph is the only necessary bit?

That’s a really interesting question. I’m split in my opinion. On one hand we can see neurological differences in most If not all mental illnesses. So it’s semantics of definitions again I think. I hesitate to say it has to be there though. There is so much we don’t know that there are lots of possibilities. But in general everything you think and feel is a product of neural processing- so if it isn’t working towards the best outcome for the organism, is that a disorder? We can usually see hyper and hypo activity in specific brain regions based on emotion alone. Just because you can boil it down to synaptic transmission, Receptors and enzymes doesn’t negated the incredible magic of that even being possible. So my gut says yes- we would be able to detect most of not all of them.
 
Thanks for your apology.

Trying to ignore your hostile approach here- as you are maybe having a bad day-or maybe it’s your posting style to antagonize a person into interacting in the way that you have deemed you somehow deserve.
I don't know where you're getting the 'hostility' from, but if you're feeling that then I apologise. This is just an internet discussion, don't worry.

Of course you're entitled to post as much or as little as you like, but anyone is also entitled to point out when a statement isn't substantiated or when a post doesn't contribute much to the discussion.

I don’t know you and I certainly couldn’t guess how you are thinking in this moment as much as you have no idea anything about why I might be reluctant or actually incapable of explaining complex neurological aspects of particular entity du jour on a online forum full of people I don’t fucking know.
I don't know why you think it would be necessary to explain 'complex neurological aspects' rather than simply contributing to the discussion in 'layman's terms'. I'm sure you know your field well enough to manage its concepts in that way if you feel that it's necessary to talk about neuroscience in a discussion about philosophy of psychiatry.

I don’t know your education levels- I have no idea where to begin here. You aren’t a bunch of grad students. Maybe, just maybe- I don’t come to an online forum trying to learn about a particular personality type to then be thrust back into my job as scientist and professor. Have you considered that that is a hell of a lot to ask or expect of anyone? What is your job? Do you want to come service me on demand? Why do you believe you are entitled to a neuroscience lecture because a neuroscientist gave her opinions on a topic? Why do you believe that I work for you? Or should? Or that I don’t have every fucking right to be exhausted and stressed out to a breaking point enough to ask an online forum full of supposed empaths for some grace and patience without one of you coming at me with sadly veiled implications that I may not be exactly who I say I am. Maybe you are the one with an issue here, as I posted a very simple statement and you wanted more than I felt I wanted or had to give in that moment. Also- I never deliver? Hmmm. I’ve been here a week. I’ve responded that way twice. I didn’t know that signing up for this forum meant I was responsible for adherence to your demands. Hyperbole and judgement much? Jesus.
I don't know why any on this has anything to do with your profession. You simply made an unsubstantiated statement, and were pressed on it because that's lame.

Also, there is more within this thread than the discussion you have boiled it down to- you do not have ownership of my interpretation.
I'm glad you know how discussions work.

Having said the above- by your interpretation of all of what has been posted - you are misusing the clinical word “disorder” in your thinking. When clinicians use the word disorder it means there are patterns of behavioral or psychological symptoms that impact multiple areas of life. Period. It is not a judgement on the worthiness of an individual nor is it a representation of all that may or may not be beneficial if society was structured differently. In this society, with these social, economic, Relationships, familial, and just getting the fuck along standards- these behavior and symptom patterns cause significant issues. For instance, Post Traumatic Stress “Disorder” is pretty goddamned adaptive if there is ongoing threats around every corner- not so much if the behaviors are happening at a restaurant or on a date, or at work in an office where threats are only perceived. The debate about it being a “disorder” or not Is taking the clinical word we use as a baseline definition used for diagnostic purposes- out of context.
That's exactly my usage. I'm well aware of what a 'disorder' is.

ADHD is often misdiagnosed. I had multiple patients who came to me with the diagnosis and on further examination actually clearly had PTSD from childhood traumas. The clinical presentation, to an untrained eye- look similar. The treatment for the two are radically different. With ADHD there is a disregulation of the dopaminergic signaling the prefrontal cortex that is aided by using a medication that upregulates dopamine. For PTSD you have a disregulation of the hippocampus and prefrontal cortex through strengthening the synaptic power of the amygdala to depress the activity of both of them. There is a problem in the bidirectional signaling between the three structures that is disregulted through excitatory glutamatergic, depression In GABA, and endocannabinoid retrograde signaling. There is a serious cortisol depression in PTSD patients that is generally an effect of a burned out HPA axis and it’s negative feedback loop due to long term allostatic load. Any blip in cortisol causes a hyperactive sympathetic net system response and the last thing you want to do is give them adderall- a central nervous system stimulant. Our clinical evaluation and adherence to set guidelines for diagnosis is really important so, back to my original point- yeah- the disorders are real. You may not like the word disorder- but that’s the word in clinical parlance- it is not a moral or character judgement as used in your question. My point is that there IS a change in the brain operating system between neuro typical and those that carry these diagnosis. It’s not bullshit or man made. They are real and cause people significant functional problems as per the requirements to carry the diagnosis, if diagnosed properly. Is it morally fine that people struggle within the constraints of our society? I don’t have an answer for you- but the brain is structured differently In both ADHD and Autism, and that’s a fact.
I don't think anyone is denying that these labels have real neurophysiological correlates.

Sounds like you are offended by a word clinicians use as a tool to communicate a set of criteria a patient does or does not have.
I'm not offended, I don't see where you might pick that up from.

I am sorry for being salty but your approach was offensive and I don’t appreciate it. I don’t owe you anything, if you have a specific question- I’ll try to answer that but I am not obligated to construct a layperson clinical lecture on broad swaths of extremely complex neuroscience on a forum where I came to try and gain some knowledge and maybe some empathy here and there, hoping to offer that in return.
Again, leave your neuroscientist hat at the door if it's easier for you. This thread is barely anything to do with that.
 
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Thanks for your apology.


I don't know where you're getting the 'hostility' from, but if you're feeling that then I apologise. This is just an internet discussion, don't worry.

Of course you're entitled to post as much or as little as you like, but anyone is also entitled to point out when a statement isn't substantiated or when a post doesn't contribute much to the discussion.


I don't know why you think it would be necessary to explain 'complex neurological aspects' rather than simply contributing to the discussion in 'layman's terms'. I'm sure you know your field well enough to manage its concepts in that way if you feel that it's necessary to talk about neuroscience in a discussion about philosophy of psychiatry.


I don't know why any on this has anything to do with your profession. You simply made an unsubstantiated statement, and were pressed on it because that's lame.


I'm glad you know how discussions work.


That's exactly my usage. I'm well aware of what a 'disorder' is.


I don't think anyone is denying that these labels have real neurophysiological correlates.


I'm not offended, I don't see where you might pick that up from.


Again, leave your neuroscientist hat at the door if it's easier for you. This thread is barely anything to do with that.


Insert eye roll here- let’s move on. This conversation has gotten super tedious.
 
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Dang just when it was getting good... :tonguewink:

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That’s a really interesting question. I’m split in my opinion. On one hand we can see neurological differences in most If not all mental illnesses. So it’s semantics of definitions again I think. I hesitate to say it has to be there though. There is so much we don’t know that there are lots of possibilities. But in general everything you think and feel is a product of neural processing- so if it isn’t working towards the best outcome for the organism, is that a disorder? We can usually see hyper and hypo activity in specific brain regions based on emotion alone. Just because you can boil it down to synaptic transmission, Receptors and enzymes doesn’t negated the incredible magic of that even being possible. So my gut says yes- we would be able to detect most of not all of them.

So if I were to summarize your idea of what constitutes a disorder, I could say:

"For something to be a disorder, it must

a. Negatively impact a person in multiple areas of life (e.g. someone with PTSD having episodes during a date or job interview and being unable to listen to what their date/hiring manager is saying because their brain is busy scanning for threats in the most trivial stuff)
b. Be reflected in the neurobiology of people who have it."
 
So if I were to summarize your idea of what constitutes a disorder, I could say:

"For something to be a disorder, it must

a. Negatively impact a person in multiple areas of life (e.g. someone with PTSD having episodes during a date or job interview and being unable to listen to what their date/hiring manager is saying because their brain is busy scanning for threats in the most trivial stuff)
b. Be reflected in the neurobiology of people who have it."

There are multiple sets of diagnostic criteria for each mental health diagnosis. It’s not as simple as that. My point was that when clinicians use the word it is signaling a collection of criteria that fit a particular pattern in order to drive treatments and support. It’s not meant to denigrate the sufferer.
 
Trying to ignore your hostile approach here- as you are maybe having a bad day-or maybe it’s your posting style to antagonize a person into interacting in the way that you have deemed you somehow deserve. I don’t know you and I certainly couldn’t guess how you are thinking in this moment as much as you have no idea anything about why I might be reluctant or actually incapable of explaining complex neurological aspects of particular entity du jour on a online forum full of people I don’t fucking know. I don’t know your education levels- I have no idea where to begin here. You aren’t a bunch of grad students. Maybe, just maybe- I don’t come to an online forum trying to learn about a particular personality type to then be thrust back into my job as scientist and professor. Have you considered that that is a hell of a lot to ask or expect of anyone? What is your job? Do you want to come service me on demand? Why do you believe you are entitled to a neuroscience lecture because a neuroscientist gave her opinions on a topic? Why do you believe that I work for you? Or should? Or that I don’t have every fucking right to be exhausted and stressed out to a breaking point enough to ask an online forum full of supposed empaths for some grace and patience without one of you coming at me with sadly veiled implications that I may not be exactly who I say I am. Maybe you are the one with an issue here, as I posted a very simple statement and you wanted more than I felt I wanted or had to give in that moment. Also- I never deliver? Hmmm. I’ve been here a week. I’ve responded that way twice. I didn’t know that signing up for this forum meant I was responsible for adherence to your demands. Hyperbole and judgement much? Jesus.
Also, there is more within this thread than the discussion you have boiled it down to- you do not have ownership of my interpretation.

Having said the above- by your interpretation of all of what has been posted - you are misusing the clinical word “disorder” in your thinking. When clinicians use the word disorder it means there are patterns of behavioral or psychological symptoms that impact multiple areas of life. Period. It is not a judgement on the worthiness of an individual nor is it a representation of all that may or may not be beneficial if society was structured differently. In this society, with these social, economic, Relationships, familial, and just getting the fuck along standards- these behavior and symptom patterns cause significant issues. For instance, Post Traumatic Stress “Disorder” is pretty goddamned adaptive if there is ongoing threats around every corner- not so much if the behaviors are happening at a restaurant or on a date, or at work in an office where threats are only perceived. The debate about it being a “disorder” or not Is taking the clinical word we use as a baseline definition used for diagnostic purposes- out of context.

ADHD is often misdiagnosed. I had multiple patients who came to me with the diagnosis and on further examination actually clearly had PTSD from childhood traumas. The clinical presentation, to an untrained eye- look similar. The treatment for the two are radically different. With ADHD there is a disregulation of the dopaminergic signaling the prefrontal cortex that is aided by using a medication that upregulates dopamine. For PTSD you have a disregulation of the hippocampus and prefrontal cortex through strengthening the synaptic power of the amygdala to depress the activity of both of them. There is a problem in the bidirectional signaling between the three structures that is disregulted through excitatory glutamatergic, depression In GABA, and endocannabinoid retrograde signaling. There is a serious cortisol depression in PTSD patients that is generally an effect of a burned out HPA axis and it’s negative feedback loop due to long term allostatic load. Any blip in cortisol causes a hyperactive sympathetic net system response and the last thing you want to do is give them adderall- a central nervous system stimulant. Our clinical evaluation and adherence to set guidelines for diagnosis is really important so, back to my original point- yeah- the disorders are real. You may not like the word disorder- but that’s the word in clinical parlance- it is not a moral or character judgement as used in your question. My point is that there IS a change in the brain operating system between neuro typical and those that carry these diagnosis. It’s not bullshit or man made. They are real and cause people significant functional problems as per the requirements to carry the diagnosis, if diagnosed properly. Is it morally fine that people struggle within the constraints of our society? I don’t have an answer for you- but the brain is structured differently In both ADHD and Autism, and that’s a fact.

Sounds like you are offended by a word clinicians use as a tool to communicate a set of criteria a patient does or does not have.

I am sorry for being salty but your approach was offensive and I don’t appreciate it. I don’t owe you anything, if you have a specific question- I’ll try to answer that but I am not obligated to construct a layperson clinical lecture on broad swaths of extremely complex neuroscience on a forum where I came to try and gain some knowledge and maybe some empathy here and there, hoping to offer that in return.

If this is any help, I don't think there was anything personal in @Deleted member 16771's post. Yes, he has a pretty 'direct' style of communication but he asked some legitimate questions I think. If you are to make arguments from authority then it is always wise to back them up with concrete content—which you did here in the post I quoted, so it's all good.
 
If this is any help, I don't think there was anything personal in @Deleted member 16771's post. Yes, he has a pretty 'direct' style of communication but he asked some legitimate questions I think. If you are to make arguments from authority then it is always wise to back them up with concrete content—which you did here in the post I quoted, so it's all good.

I consider the matter settled.
 
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I don’t know why I thought that???? But talking about wedding dress ads on other thread confirmed it. I missed the sarcasm in that one.
Maybe I have a feminine writing pattern or something like that.

The wedding dresses... lol, I guess I talk a fair bit about love here such that Google thinks I'm obviously some kind of wistful teenage girl with a scrapbook full of wedding plans.