Addiction (split from "For the non smokers")

[Reon]

True, but up until maybe 40 years ago the ill affects of smoking were relatively unknown and downplayed. Plenty of time for people over the age of 40 to become addicted. Not that it really leaves much of an excuse for younger smokers. They know the risks but it's a personal choice.

And it wasn't really the cigarette comment that irked me, more of the generalization about people "willing" themselves to become addicted that bugged me. I hate it when people look at substance addiction as a character weakness. Sure it's a flaw (which has a large part to do with genetics) but I hardly think it makes a person weak.

In this case, I do, if you readily accept the consequences of smoking and succumb to your addiction, and constantly bully yourself out of quitting, then you are a weak person. My view point might be a bit diluted, I've only stop popping stuff a few years back.

Edit: To make it clearer, getting addicted is the weak part, the actual addiction part is just a chemical process.

 

[bamf]

In this case, I do, if you readily accept the consequences of smoking and succumb to your addiction, and constantly bully yourself out of quitting, then you are a weak person. My view point might be a bit diluted, I've only stop popping stuff a few years back.

Edit: To make it clearer, getting addicted is the weak part, the actual addiction part is just a chemical process.

Cigarettes, maybe. But alcohol, drug abuse, pornography, food, etc are often times influenced by more than the conscious. Addiction is not a choice.

 

[Reon]

Cigarettes, maybe. But alcohol, drug abuse, pornography, food, etc are often times influenced by more than the conscious. Addiction is not a choice.

If I may ask, how is addiction not a choice? I've done all of the things listed above, some more than others, and I don't see how they are more addiction prone than smoking a cigarette. To be clear, we are talking about being addicted, not GETTING addicted, right?

 

[Zero Angel]

I became a smoker when I was 15, a friend of mine got me into it and it seemed like something exciting to do, risks be damned! Plus my father often smoked around me and I got used to it. At first, I didnt believe I was addicted to it, I just wanted another smoke because I enjoyed having them. Of course 10 years later I can say 'I wish I didnt light that first smoke -- because I enjoy them too much to quit'. Trying to quit, would be like trying to go without anything to drink for days when you're thirsty. Some people have sufficient motivation to convince them to endure that and some don't. It's that simple.

If I may ask, how is addiction not a choice? I've done all of the things listed above, some more than others, and I don't see how they are more addiction prone than smoking a cigarette. To be clear, we are talking about being addicted, not GETTING addicted, right?

If your mother, father, best friend or child dies and you are sad about it, it is a choice as well. You choose to be sad -- you may not want to be but regardless you are. Will any amount of willing yourself to be happy take away your grief? Sure you can try, but good luck with that. And what about any irrational fears you may have caused by traumas? Does your rationality work against these as well?

My point is that the emotional/limbic system of the brain has ultimate veto'ing capability over the rational part -- even thinking types can be prone to this. There are two factors to truly understanding these kinds of things, one is having been in these situations and the other is empathy. Until you have lived something, you cannot truly know it.

 

[bamf]

If I may ask, how is addiction not a choice? I've done all of the things listed above, some more than others, and I don't see how they are more addiction prone than smoking a cigarette. To be clear, we are talking about being addicted, not GETTING addicted, right?

I'm talking about addiction in all aspects. Have you ever been addicted yourself? To the point where you know what you are doing is wrong, where you want to stop, but no matter what you "will" yourself to do, you simply cannot?

Maybe you can control how you react to substances but many people cannot. It is said that 1 in 6 people are addicted to alcohol. I promise you that people do not want to be addicted, they do not choose to be addicted, and they most likely wish they were not addicted.

Addictions have the ability to control the body more than logic and reasoning. To chastise people who have addictions and say that they are simply weak, is closed minded and ignorant.

 

[bamf]

When a mother, father, best friend or child dies, you are going to be sad about it, but remaining that way for the rest of your life would be just silly, would it not?

Addiction isn't an emotion, it's not a fleeting thing.

 

[Reon]

I became a smoker when I was 15, a friend of mine got me into it and it seemed like something exciting to do, risks be damned! Plus my father often smoked around me and I got used to it. At first, I didnt believe I was addicted to it, I just wanted another smoke because I enjoyed having them. Of course 10 years later I can say 'I wish I didnt light that first smoke -- because I enjoy them too much to quit'. Trying to quit, would be like trying to go without anything to drink for days when you're thirsty. Some people have sufficient motivation to convince them to endure that and some don't. It's that simple.


If your mother, father, best friend or child dies and you are sad about it, it is a choice as well. You choose to be sad -- you may not want to be but regardless you are. Will any amount of willing yourself to be happy take away your grief? Sure you can try, but good luck with that. And what about any irrational fears you may have caused by traumas? Does your rationality work against these as well?

My point is that the emotional/limbic system of the brain has ultimate veto'ing capability over the rational part -- even thinking types can be prone to this. There are two factors to truly understanding these kinds of things, one is having been in these situations and the other is empathy. Until you have lived something, you cannot truly know it.

When a mother, father, best friend or child dies, you are going to be sad about it, but remaining that way for the rest of your life would be just silly, would it not?

I'm talking about addiction in all aspects. Have you ever been addicted yourself? To the point where you know what you are doing is wrong, where you want to stop, but no matter what you "will" yourself to do, you simply cannot?

Not to the extent that your speaking of, seeing as I'm holding this position.

Maybe you can control how you react to substances but many people cannot. It is said that 1 in 6 people are addicted to alcohol. I promise you that people do not want to be addicted, they do not choose to be addicted, and they most likely wish they were not addicted.

If they wish so intently that they weren't addicted, can't they try and get some help? I doubt they'll ever be the same as people who weren't addicted, but continuing to drink (abuse) will not get them anywhere but a deeper hole.

Addictions have the ability to control the body more than logic and reasoning. To chastise people who have addictions and say that they are simply weak, is closed minded and ignorant.

Color me ignorant, and insensitive, I suppose.

 

[Zero Angel]

When a mother, father, best friend or child dies, you are going to be sad about it, but remaining that way for the rest of your life would be just silly, would it not?

True, but keep in mind you are simply taking the weakest part of my whole argument, changing the context of it, and admitting a true statement according to that new context.

It is a natural course of action that a majority of people overcome their sadness of that loss sometime in their life, but it can still affect people profoundly. Is it because they WANT to be sad? during the parts when they are. No, its because the emotional system of their brain is reacting to that loss of that individual. For the duration that they are sad, they will experience that emotion until their grieving has taken its natural course and emotional attachment to that person is flushed out of their system.

You have still not addressed the main point which I originally intended. Does the emotional system of the brain have veto over the rational or not?

Of course you may be different. Perhaps you really are a superior being who lacks this flaw -- perhaps you never do anything irrational, including get angry, perhaps you have no unhealthy fears. Maybe we should all be like you.

 

[bamf]

When a mother, father, best friend or child dies, you are going to be sad about it, but remaining that way for the rest of your life would be just silly, would it not?



Not to the extent that your speaking of, seeing as I'm holding this position.


If they wish so intently that they weren't addicted, can't they try and get some help? I doubt they'll ever be the same as people who weren't addicted, but continuing to drink (abuse) will not get them anywhere but a deeper hole.



Color me ignorant, and insensitive, I suppose.

I didn't mean to call you ignorant, it's just a very personal topic for me and sometimes I get heated about it. I apologize.

And yes, people who are addicted can and should get help, but at the same time there are also many people who do not even know they are addicted or their addictions control their lives so much their vision of the world has become clouded to the point that it moves past a physical to a mental addiction and getting help seems like the worst thing possible. Addiction is like sickle cell enema or downs syndrome or any other genetic/inheritable condition in the way that one is born with it or predisposed to it. Sure you can fight the addictions, the voices, the demons, but it is a constant and life long struggle that they most definitely did not sign up for.

 

[Reon]

I didn't mean to call you ignorant, it's just a very personal topic for me and sometimes I get heated about it. I apologize.

And yes, people who are addicted can and should get help, but at the same time there are also many people who do not even know they are addicted or their addictions control their lives so much their vision of the world has become clouded to the point that it moves past a physical to a mental addiction and getting help seems like the worst thing possible. Addiction is like sickle cell enema or downs syndrome or any other genetic/inheritable condition in the way that one is born with it or predisposed to it. Sure you can fight the addictions, the voices, the demons, but it is a constant and life long struggle that they most definitely did not sign up for.

Bah, I was a bit insensitive and stating that all people who suffer from an addiction was a bit uncalled for. I doubt I feel for this topic the same way as you do, I've just seen things that make me very wary about getting addicted to anything, and I suppose I passed my standards onto others.

Edit:

True, but keep in mind you are simply taking the weakest part of my whole argument, changing the context of it, and admitting a true statement according to that new context.

It is a natural course of action that a majority of people overcome their sadness of that loss sometime in their life, but it can still affect people profoundly. Is it because they WANT to be sad? during the parts when they are. No, its because the emotional system of their brain is reacting to that loss of that individual. For the duration that they are sad, they will experience that emotion until their grieving has taken its natural course and emotional attachment to that person is flushed out of their system.

You have still not addressed the main point which I originally intended. Does the emotional system of the brain have veto over the rational or not?

The emotional system is of higher standing than the system containing rationality.

Of course you may be different. Perhaps you really are a superior being who lacks this flaw -- perhaps you never do anything irrational, including get angry, perhaps you have no unhealthy fears. Maybe we should all be like you.

 

[Zero Angel]

And hence why we have irrationality. In order for one to get out of addictions, his reason for quitting must have a higher emotional priority than the emotional priority of the addiction itself. If an alcoholic woman has always dreamed of having a child, and she is pregnant, she will more likely find that enough of a reason to quit drinking. It is not simply the rationality of taking that course of action which contributes to her quitting, but the emotional value that the alternative has.

Addiction has 2 factors -- one is genetic and the other is upbringing. While genetics is questionable, upbringing is not. A child who grows up in an alcoholic family is more likely to become an alcoholic himself.

And its OK that you're insensitive and ignorant. I was too when I was your age and I can still be.

Its like that time when I posted a topic on INTPc called 'Whats up with bisexuals?', asking bi's if they loved both sexes or if it was strictly a pleasure thing and why they feel the way they do. I did it in a polite manner but some people got offended. If I phrased it more harshly it would still have asked the same questions, just more tactlessly.

 

[Milon]

Addiction is trying to gain for oneself something that fulfills a need temporarily, but leaves it unsatisfied in the long run. Smoking, for instance, I hear is a great stress reducer - but once you're chemically addicted, it's really stressful to your body to not have a smoke - creating more stress, and the need for another smoke. Vicious cycle. That's the core of every (non-chemical) addiction. I don't look down on people for that - they just need to find better solutions.

 

[Zero Angel]

Most addictions work using the same principle, you get pleasure from something -- and after enough exposure to it you start to develop a tolerance towards that substance or emotion to the point where when it leaves you, theres a big void left over to whatever want that the specific thing filled. Nicotine produces a certain high for example, so that it becomes 'normal' for your body to be in a nicotine-laden state, when the nicotine is removed you start to physically feel the opposite of the high. It works the same way with the caffeine coffee and a lot of other drugs. Heroin and other opiates are especially powerful because the euphoric state it induces is so strong -- the crash of going off heroin is even stronger -- it's generally described in a way that it seems like the heroine addict feels like he is being brutally tortured when drying out.

I once took some powerful painkillers called ratio-oxycocet (the generic name for oxycontin) to relieve a really bad toothache. Oxycocet is excellent at relieving even the strongest tooth pain but it also induces a mild euphoric state several orders of magnitude weaker than heroin or morphine. I actually liked the feeling I had of being on the painkiller, I just felt so happy like everything was right with the world and totally at peace -- of course the euphoria was mild and short lived (lasting 15-30 minutes) but I can see how people can become addicted to it. I know better than to order anything stronger than T3's for all but the strongest pain simply because of how I was raised.

People who are raised in healthy, happy environments are less likely to become addicts.

 

[Motor Jax]

i'm addicted to eating... and resting...

... would WoW count as an addiction..? i mean; 1) its not harmful to me. 2) i'm always checking in here. 3) i love all 9 dogs that are outside and i have a huge backyard to play in...

 

[Milon]

... would WoW count as an addiction..?

It can

 

[WickedPod]

i'm addicted to eating... and resting...

... would WoW count as an addiction..? i mean; 1) its not harmful to me. 2) i'm always checking in here. 3) i love all 9 dogs that are outside and i have a huge backyard to play in...

Yes. I know this from first-hand experience with my husband, myself (but only for 3 months at a time), and some of our friends. If you're allowing it to harm your real life relationships b/c you can't seem to stop, then I personally see it as an addiction.

 

[Motor Jax]

Yes. I know this from first-hand experience with my husband, myself (but only for 3 months at a time), and some of our friends. If you're allowing it to harm your real life relationships b/c you can't seem to stop, then I personally see it as an addiction.

i guess im not addicted then... cause i'm not in a relationship but i still have a vehicle to work on, a huge yard to work in, and i love being outside... a lot...

 

[martinm]

Addiction of any kind is not good for health be it smoking, alcohol or drugs. Once a person gets addicted to such things then it's very tough to get over it because of the addictive nature of these things. It takes immense will power and dedication to get over such habits. Best luck to all those who want to give up there habits.

 

[sassafras]

I'm of the opinion that, barring chemical dependence, addictions are a choice. Everything we do in life is to attract pleasure, and distance ourselves from pain. Every single action can be broken down to this principle.

We wouldn't continue to do something, no matter how destructive it seems on the surface and regardless of whether we're aware of it or not, unless we got some subconcious benefit out of it. It could be anything from the fear of change to the unconscious enjoyment of learned helplessness that can trap someone in addiction. Often, low frustration tolerance is a big factor in relapse for people who are initially trying to get themselves out of addiction. It's always easier to revert to a familiar, 'safer' pattern than strike out into the unknown.

Only when someone realizes that there is more benefit (ie: more pleasure) to getting out of addiction, will they really try to kick their habit.

I'm talking about psychological addiction here. Drugs bring in the physical factor along with the psychological factor, which makes them tougher to struggle with.... but entirely possible to overcome with appropriate detox and active decision to recover.

Does that mean I have no sympathy for addicts? I do. I know first hand what its like to be your own worst enemy.

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is the victory over self."
- Aristotle.
​

 

[Creon]

I'm of the opinion that, barring chemical dependence, addictions are a choice. Everything we do in life is to attract pleasure, and distance ourselves from pain. Every single action can be broken down to this principle.

We wouldn't continue to do something, no matter how destructive it seems on the surface and regardless of whether we're aware of it or not, unless we got some subconcious benefit out of it. It could be anything from the fear of change to the unconscious enjoyment of learned helplessness that can trap someone in addiction. Often, low frustration tolerance is a big factor in relapse for people who are initially trying to get themselves out of addiction. It's always easier to revert to a familiar, 'safer' pattern than strike out into the unknown.

Only when someone realizes that there is more benefit (ie: more pleasure) to getting out of addiction, will they really try to kick their habit.

I'm talking about psychological addiction here. Drugs bring in the physical factor along with the psychological factor, which makes them tougher to struggle with.... but entirely possible to overcome with appropriate detox and active decision to recover.

Does that mean I have no sympathy for addicts? I do. I know first hand what its like to be your own worst enemy.

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is the victory over self."
- Aristotle.
​

I agree.

But, there are always social influences and pressures that make that benefit or pleasure seem larger to a person, than it actually is. Therefore making the decision to quit even harder.