adam, eve, and exhile from eden | INFJ Forum

adam, eve, and exhile from eden

13datura31

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is there any ground to believe that the fall from grace and original sin referred to in the good book could be a metaphor for the fall from bliss we expierence every time we wake up? to me, it seems as though the only time we are truly complete, is when we are asleep, and by that i mean our subconscious and conscious are truly united, if only for a half forgotten moment. Also, could this concept be applied to a metaphor for the childs fall, which could be, growing older, moving forward in time, and simultaniously getting further and further from a time when they were "complete" and by that i mean back in the comfort of the womb, or if thought further, to a time before they were even a possibility? kind of like, a long drawn out yearning for singularity, which, probably can never be reached.

and i am sorry if this question gets a little murky, but this has been running through my mind for awhile, and i just want to get some sort of feedback.
 
i'm not a religious person at all, but as a literary person i have noticed that religious metaphor permeates a lot of writing that is done, so in a literary way, i am sure you can use it as a comparative tool for thinking about life, and apply it to whatever sorts of narrative thoughts interest you.

but, from a religious perspective, is it technically blasphemy to suggest that the story means anything beyond literal description - ie that they are "meant" to describe something other than two actual human beings experiencing these events? i have no idea, it just seems like it might be technically incorrect from a religious perspective to think of the story in this way.
 
As in many of the "Teachings" on being Human and Spiritual - your musings/interpretations are correct for you for now - even while they may change as you grow and evolve in your conception of being spiritual. No one singular interpretation is more correct than another. All are equally right for the person based upon their experiences of their life at that time.

If you are interested in how many versions of the Adam and Eve story there have been in the recorded history of Man - you might take a look at a gentleman who has done extensive work in comparing religions and mythologies from around the world. His knowledge has helped me in my past when I arrived at the place you are in now. He has a few videos out you can rent and/or download (I assume). And books galore...

Joseph John Campbell (March 26, 1904 – October 30, 1987) was an American mythologist, writer and lecturer, best known for his work in comparative mythology and comparative religion. His work is vast, covering many aspects of the human experience.
His philosophy is often summarized by his phrase: "Follow your bliss."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell

If I had to choose one person who has influenced my spiritual journey with the most significance - I'd point to him every time.
 
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I am a religious person, and you bring up some interesting points. I normally shy away from discussing topics related to religion on this forum because I am afraid of setting ppl off. But here goes nothing!

The stories in scripture are often literal and are other times are the best way to explain something outside of our understanding in a relatively simple way. I also believe that stories in scripture, if they are true, and true from every angle, whether seen as literal, metaphorical, symbolism and so on. In terms of your discussion on the 'long drawn our yearning for singularity' I believe this comes from the joy we feel when we are one with God. This is what we were prior to birth and what we will be after we die, if we want to be. In terms of your discussion on sleep I have heard that sleep is considered a 'lesser death'. A time when the soul leaves the body and returns to God. So in the case of the story of Adam and Eve, in our yearning for singularity and in the example of sleeping the common thread is the significance of attaining nearness to God. Surely we belong to God and to Him shall we return.
 
sweet, another lil theory running through my head is that the book of revelations is actually a parable about the death of the childs self centered, unrealistic ego and the oneness we experience once we actually accept love (god) as the universal truth, but i havent articulated it in a cohesive enough question to ax other just yet, although i wouldn't mind hearing your opinion on what i just wrote in this lil reply.
 
The themes of mortality, inherent imperfection and being 'lost', and the subsequent journey to find and develop an identity for yourself is a very common (vital, really) meme in life, and in writing especially (Crime and Punishment, Jane Eyre, Heart of Darkness, and Invisible Man spring to mind first). Perhaps you have heard of psychologist Carl Jung's work into archetypes - not strictly related to typology, of course - and his theory on a collective unconscious? It, and Sigmund Freud's idea of the Id-Ego-Superego, sound metaphorically similar to what you suggest. The allegory of Plato's Cave might be of interest to you as well (?) . I will leave the religious pertinence to those more qualified to answer.
 
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"is there any ground to believe that the fall from grace and original sin referred to in the good book could be a metaphor for the fall from bliss we expierence every time we wake up?" No.
 
simple answer awesome, fuck this religious bs.

No.

"Is there any ground" was used, which makes for a simple answer. Now, what an individual chooses to read into something is all up in the air. How an individual feels toward something is also his/her choice.

Shall I do what you said? No.
 
I don't think I'm necessarily content when I sleep. A lot of my dreams are confused and frustrating. Just last night I dreamed I was back in the classroom and it was the first day of school, but I hadn't prepared. I was trying to teach them a basic clapping game, but it was too hard without individual attention, and the class was getting increasingly squirrelly as I tried to go around one at a time. There was another adult in the room, and I could figure out if she was an aid or if we were co-teaching. And I was so frustrated with the kids not understanding me that I just gave in and started speaking to them in spanish to line up for recess. Go figure.

I love the story of adam and eve in the garden. I think it is at least partially a racial memory of our evolution into moral sentience. At one time, we were clearly part of nature, without advanced self awareness, it was the priimordial jungle of Eden. But when our empathy evolved to where we began to have problems with our own instinct, we were no longer at peace with ourselves, no longer at peace with nature, no longer at peace with G-d. We had eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and this would forever seperate us from our simple natural instinctual selves. Paradise Lost. But... what was gained? Eh?
 
i'm not a religious person at all, but as a literary person i have noticed that religious metaphor permeates a lot of writing that is done, so in a literary way, i am sure you can use it as a comparative tool for thinking about life, and apply it to whatever sorts of narrative thoughts interest you.

but, from a religious perspective, is it technically blasphemy to suggest that the story means anything beyond literal description - ie that they are "meant" to describe something other than two actual human beings experiencing these events? i have no idea, it just seems like it might be technically incorrect from a religious perspective to think of the story in this way.

No it is not blasphemy. There is much mythology in the bible, I studied theology; no respectable bible scholar would interpret Genesis as literal...it is filled with symbolism. If you read it any other way you're reading it wrong. So, you're correct with what literary genre you noticed.

Is there any ground to believe what the OP suggested...lol...I don't think so.
 
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If you study myths, if you put in the time to read hundreds and hundreds of them, you get a feel for how they work. They function on several levels.

At base level they are simply good stories that kids enjoy that usually give some kind of reason why something in nature is the way it is.

On a social level, they are teaching stories. Whatever CORE VALUES a culture has, it will inevitably encode into these myths. Enculturation is not usually conscious or prosaic, but picked up via osmosis, and myth is one of the best tools. When Jews and Christians read about Adam and Eve, it is not primarily for the "history," even if theytake it literally, but for the lessons it teaches about the nature of G-d, of the universe, and of humanity.

These values are not consiously placed into the story -- they come unconsiously through the mind of the story teller and whatever inspires them. Thus, myth is almost never allegorical, as allegory is a conscious use of symbolism.

There is another deeper level to myth that most people get to, because they have't been exposed to enough myth. When you read enoug myth, you begin to notice that the same stories are told over and over, and the same characters keep popping up in different forms. Many thoughtful people have asked the question, How is it that diverse cultures around the globe, most that have never met each other, essentially tell the same stories? We don't really know the answer. But we acknowledge that there is a part of our subconsious minds where these ideas are encoded, and we are simply born with the knowledge. These kinds of things are usually refered to as "Archetypal." In our age, they are the subject of a lot of thought by such great minds as Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell. One theory is that there is a kind of racial memory going on. But we just don't have a lot of hard core science to back it up.

But anyhow, that's where I was coming from earlier in the thread when I made the suggestion that the story of Adam and Chava could be a racial memory of the evolution of our moral sentience, and how this development alienated us from nature, from ourselves, from each other, and even from our Creator.

You know, if you are ever interested, you might find it fun to explore Jewish interpretations. They're pretty different from the Christian one, and there are a lot more ideas being thrown around. You can find plenty of Rabbis who will say that it was always part of G-d's plan that they eat of the tree, since G-d's desire was to create morally responsible beings. And the original "Adam" is considered to be androgenous, or hermaphroditic; when G-d "created Chava" he took Adam and divided him/her into the two sexes. I think all this stuff is pretty interesting, but not everyone does, so I hope I'm not boring you to tears.
 
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I've only been here for a little bit but I enjoy reading your posts [MENTION=4576]GracieRuth[/MENTION]
 
anyone notice that Eve wasn't named until after the fall?
 
I love the story of adam and eve in the garden. I think it is at least partially a racial memory of our evolution into moral sentience. At one time, we were clearly part of nature, without advanced self awareness, it was the priimordial jungle of Eden. But when our empathy evolved to where we began to have problems with our own instinct, we were no longer at peace with ourselves, no longer at peace with nature, no longer at peace with G-d. We had eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and this would forever seperate us from our simple natural instinctual selves. Paradise Lost. But... what was gained? Eh?


the following will contain much heresy... ;D



Well I have very very liberal beliefs and I identify mostly with the mystics of christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mysticism
http://christianmystics.com/basics/whatis.html
http://www.christianmystics.com/mysticalquotes.html
How I understand that story, and one possible interpretation could be that Our souls were with God and knew only God, (God is to me best described as a non-personal being of total love and compassion, a loving creator). As we became separate from God, or became self-aware, we gained the knowledge of good and evil, but doing so we lost the original unity of being in God. I feel the soul knows what evil is by the degree it is not like God, i.e. good, loving and compassionate. The absence of God.
I personally think other religions have texts that speak of God and this separation, knowing good and evil

Like from the Tao Te King:

"When people see some things as beautiful,
other things become ugly.
When people see some things as good,
other things become bad."

"If you overesteem great men,
people become powerless.
If you overvalue possessions,
people begin to steal."

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html

That's how I see the fall

:)
 
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It is important to understand that the story told in Genesis about Eve and the serpent has a larger religious and political context which is the real historical struggle waged by the prophets of Yahweh and the indigenous Canaanite cult of Baal. Baal, who appears to have arrived in Canaan with the Phoenicians, was the son and consort of the Mother Goddess Asherah.


Baal was primarily a fertility god and appears not only in the form of a man and a bull (like his father 'El), but also in the form of a serpent. By stressing through these forms his potency and virility, Baal represents the masculine element, and serves as the fertilizing, life-giving, and life-renewing aspect through whom the Mother Goddess fulfills her functions.


As the cult of Yahweh developed, it drew on the myths of Baal. For example, the language used in the earliest poetic sources in which Yahweh is depicted as a divine warrior manifest is borrowed almost directly from Canaanite descriptions of the theophany of Baal as storm god.


However, as the adherents of the Yahwist sect (or the "Yahweh-alone party" as one scholar has called them) engaged in the struggle to establish Yahweh as the one true God, Baal became the enemy of Israel. Baal and the Baalim were represented as false pagan gods and the cult associated with idolatry.


However, it is clear from the Old Testament that the cult of Baal remained popular and was not easily suppressed. The overarching narrative of the Old Testament is the struggle of the Yahwists against Baal for religious dominance in Israel. Time and again the preexilic biblical prophets admonish the Israelites for worshipping Baal.


Although the impression the prophets wish to convey is one of relapse from Yahwism, it is not difficult to discern the fact that the cult of Baal was well-established and widespread in ancient Palestine. In this light, much of the Old Testament can be read as an extended Yahwist propaganda tract against Baal. The tactic adopted by the Yahwists in their efforts to defeat Baal was to demonize the cult and to represent Baal as an evil god, a demon hostile to humankind. In the story of the temptation and fall in Genesis 3, Baal is represented in his potent serpent form and exposed as a seducer and deceiver and as Yahweh's evil adversary.


A clear hint to how the Genesis story should be read is found in the writings of Hosea (Osee) the theme of which, contained in the metaphor of the Israelites behaving like an unfaithful wife and "playing the harlot", is the desertion of Yahweh by the Israelites and their seduction by the Canaanite Baal.
In Hosea's story can also be discerned some essential features of the cult of Baal which, when combined with other brief references found scattered through the Old Testament, reveal, at least in the eyes of the patriarchal Israelites, that it was strongly associated with women. That it was principally women who were involved in the cult of Baal/Asherah is made clear from passages in Jeremiah 44.


In the Yahwists' scathing condemnation of the cult of Baal/Asherah, women are frequently singled out and blamed for leading Israelites astray. Solomon, for example, has his heart "turned away" from Yahweh by women (I Kings 11:3) and he worships "Astarthe the goddess of the Sidonians" (I Kings 11:5). The Phoenician city of Sidon was a centre for the worship of Asherah.

First, it is noteworthy that in the scene of the temptation, the serpent approaches not Adam, as you might expect, but Eve. Although this is usually explained by the "fact" that Eve, being a woman, was more weak-willed than Adam and therefore more susceptible to temptation, it is more believably the case that the narrator of the story was witnessing an already established association between the serpent and the woman.


The point of Genesis 3 is to make this otherwise obvious link but then to show how the serpent in fact deceived and betrayed the woman. Indeed, to underscore this the woman is actually made to say "The serpent deceived me and I ate" (Genesis 3:13). The narrator then cleverly has Yahweh punish the serpent for deceiving the woman, but at the same time uses it as an opportunity to drive a wedge between the serpent and the woman with a curse putting everlasting "enmity" between them and their offspring. The story successfully alienates the woman from her long-time ally, the serpent.


The curse metered out to Eve as punishment for her listening to the serpent is also interesting in this respect. Yahweh tells Eve that he "will make great your distress in child-bearing; in pain shall you bring forth children."
This is, when all is said and done, a curious punishment for disobedience. It makes sense, however, when it is placed within the context of the Baal/Asherah cult. Cults which focused on a Mother Goddess were attractive to women because in most instances they addressed the concerns of women.
Among these concerns would be sexual health ranging from fertility in general to particular matters such as menstruation, conception, pregnancy, child-birth, breast-feeding, and infant care (see also "Snake Charmers" in The Minoan Snake Goddess).



http://witcombe.sbc.edu/eve-women/6womenevil.html

 
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