Your body language shapes who you are | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Your body language shapes who you are

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by La Sagna, Jan 9, 2014.

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  1. OP
    La Sagna

    La Sagna Trying to become a butterfly

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    Science can't even explain consciousness...but I don't believe that 'mind' and 'brain' are two completletly seperate entities, they are intertwined so if your brain is affected I believe your mind is also affected. I'm not saying your 'essence' or your 'soul' is affected, that is more of a philosophical question, but your mind is definitely affected.
     
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  2. muir

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    I think its far more important that the shy little kid believes in what they are doing
     
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  3. LucyJr

    LucyJr Well-known member

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    Yes, you touched it. So true.
     
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  4. OP
    La Sagna

    La Sagna Trying to become a butterfly

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    I agree, but that alone does not necessarily give the person enough to be able to make a difference. I don't think anyone is saying that all you need is the pose and you don't need strong beliefs or other guiding principles, this is just one tool that may help some people. I don't understand why you feel they need to be mutually exclusive and why they can't work together to make the person stronger.

    For years I was bubbling with ideas and solutions to problems but I didn't know how to get that out so I was actually heard and not dismissed. I can tell you that being the president of a non-profit association for 3 years changed me drastically. I was intimidated by the role at first but because this was something that was important to me I figured out how to be a person with more authority and it completely changed how I see myself. Honestly, I think it allowed me to feel that I can do anything that I set my mind to and that I can create change in my life and in society. I obviously needed to care about what I was doing to be able to do it but I was only able to do it effectively because I stretched myself to do things differently and to 'act' like I think a president needs to act. You will never convince me that this sort of stuff doesn't work because I think that I am the proof that it does work. I think those that don't think it works haven't tried it.
     
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  5. muir

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    I feel what you're saying and its not that i'm disagreeing that quieter people shouldn't find ways to get their point over as well.....what i'm talking about though is PRIORITIES

    if you look at my previous posts you will hear me lamenting how our society puts style before substance....this is imo getting priorities wrong!

    There have been a variety of discussions on the forum about the nature of sanity or insanity and my view on sanity is that it is the ability to prioritise properly

    I would say that our current system does not prioritise properly and is therefore insane and that is why we see so many social problems produced from it

    You are talking about what you will do with this psychological technology....but the speaker teaches this to business students....who are likely to be some of the more assertive types anyway...and she is being applauded for that....i'm saying this is a double edged sword and that there are other things that should be taken into account with all this

    I want to qualify my statement before...i said it was important for the shy kid to believe in what they're saying/doing...i think its also important for someone to understand why what they are saying/doing is right

    Faith alone can be dangerous territory. A person with strong convictions should, when questioned, be able to explain clearly why they hold those convictions.....for an INFJ that ability to bring the intellectual component often comes with age, experience and learning

    A young INFJ might be able to tell you that something is wrong but an older INFJ could probably give you a lot of supporting evidence as well to back up their assertions
     
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  6. LucyJr

    LucyJr Well-known member

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    I had been trough some heavy depression, and if a doctor would have tried to 'fix' me with hormones or drugs, electric shocks or other things like this, now I would have probably burn all his credentials.

    Depression does not come from a biochemical imbalance in the brain or in hormones. All these are just effects of the depression.
    Its not that biochemical imbalance is the cause of depression...NEVER. Its always the other way around: because of depression, biochemical inbalance arises.

    But, the question is this: can you treat the effects and solve the cause, depression itself? I don' think so. You can cure and fix the effects (something that medics can do) but that won't change the cause, the depression.
    Depression is from the mind, from worries, attitudes, fears, guilt and so on. You have to deal with them to solve depression.
     
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  7. niffer

    niffer Well-known member

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    "NEVER"? Can you support that claim?

    I will concede that in many cases a person's thoughts and circumstances do instigate depression, but some people are biologically predisposed for chemical imbalance. And drugs can save their lives. You are not a student of medicine, and to claim loudly on the internet that mood imbalances are "NEVER" not from one's own thoughts is dangerous and potentially harmful to the minority who do experience these issues.
     
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  8. OP
    La Sagna

    La Sagna Trying to become a butterfly

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    I'm not sure about that definition of sanity, I think it's more complicated than that...although you are definitely right about our society having the wrong priorities.

    I feel like my approach is more practical than yours, it's more about how individual people can empower themselves to make the changes that need to be made...if enough people do that then the world will be changed.

    Extroverts certainly seem to rule the world. What if introverts actually are smarter and have better ideas (just a suggestion :) ) but that they have a more difficult time communicating it or taking action, wouldn't it be a good thing to empower them to be able to take action by teaching them how they can use the tricks of the extroverts to be able to accomplish more in this extroverted world? I'm not saying that we should teach them to think like or be extroverts, but to find ways to be able to 'push' to create the change they want to see. If power in the hands of the wrong people is a bad thing, wouldn't power in the hands of the right people be a good thing? I don't think that power corrupts everybody, I just think most people that reach the pinnacles of power tend to be those that are corrupt in the first place, but I also think that sometimes there are people who are not corrupt and who make it to positions of power and they change things for the better (like Mandella).
     
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  9. muir

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    How many people are really 'predisposed for chemical imbalance' though....in the grand scheme of things?

    I think its worth considering that our bodies are now exposed to more stressors than previous generations were

    For example chemicals only really took off after world war II....now they're EVERYWHERE! They spray them on our foods, on our heads, in our water, in make up and other materials that we come into contact with

    There is a growing list of auto immune deficiencies....everyone has something even if it is just an allergy

    They are also putting additives in our food in the water and also they are giving babies more and more vaccines. i don't know if you have looked at the vaccination programme for a child these days but they are basically treated as pin cushions for the first few years of their lives and there is mounting evidence of the harmful nature of these vaccines

    Thats not to say that vaccines per se are bad but rather that the ones being manufactured and pushed onto the public by big pharma and complicit politicians are full of all sorts of damaging and frankly bizarre stuff

    You just need to do a search engine search to find out some of the stuff they put in the vaccines....its incredible!

    Then there is the electro-smog created by the increasing amount of electro magnetic radiation in our world that has increased drastically with the invention of wifi....there are plenty of clips online of reputable people including doctors discussing the dangers of this

    Do you remember the mainstream news stories of how mobile phones harm children and that we shouldn't use them for too long because they are harmful? Well now RF waves are everywhere and they even want us to instal wireless 'smart' meters in our homes! These work by passing info to one set in the street which acts as a booster to send the info on to the energy corporation...but what about the poor family that have to live with the booster one?!

    There are other things as well....so anyway we are being exposed to a lot of stuff these days and thats before we even touch on the increasing tecnological nature of our society or the rapidly shifting popular culture

    So before we go listening to big pharma who would probabaly love to tell us we all have predispositions to chemical imbalances i think there is a long list of other culprits that should be examined first!
     
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    #49 muir, Jan 9, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  10. say what

    say what I like soft things...so soft!

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    I don't think we can discount the evolutionary factor. Even through our bodies and minds have both evolved and adapted over the course of human history, we still have some innate biological/physiological responses to certain stimulus based on our evolutionary history. Taking that perspective, when our bodies and physical responses were more dominant (that is, our minds less evolved), we would likely see more impact from a physiological standpoint on this topic. As our minds evolved, our internal state was then more dominated by psychological processes. I think that we as humans now are more likely to have our psychological processes influence our behaviour and physiology (especially those that are of greater awareness and control of their internal thought processes, etc.), however, there are still innate/evolutionary physiological and biological processes that happen.

    So yes, I think that our posture is likely to enhance our confidence based on our evolutionary processes, but I think our mind and psychological thoughts are of greater influence.

    But that's just my initial thoughts :D
     
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  11. niffer

    niffer Well-known member

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    This is all true.

    The genetic component can be linked to or better explained by these factors.

    I don't think it negates anything that I said; rather, it's basically supporting my stance more. What I am not saying is that everyone who is depressed should take drugs or let outside authorities mess with their bodies further. I am quite against the idea of all of that. What I am saying is that it is not always something instigated by thoughts from the mind, and that for a very small minority of people, in spite of all of the issues drugs like this cause for many other people, drugs from big pharma can, do, and have saved this very small minority. And to dismiss that is factually incorrect, and also potentially dangerous for those who would be affected by such misinformation.
     
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  12. OP
    La Sagna

    La Sagna Trying to become a butterfly

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    Here is what seems to be the current scientific stance on hormones and depression (scientists constantly disagree on this stuff so no wonder non-scientists will diagree also):

    Hormonal Abnormalities

    The hormonal system that regulates the body's response to stress, the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis, is overactive in many patients with depression, and NIMH researchers are investigating whether this phenomenon contributes to the development of the illness.

    The hypothalamus, the brain region responsible for managing hormone release from glands throughout the body, increases production of a substance called corticotropin releasing factor (CRF) when a threat to physical or psychological well-being is detected. Elevated levels and effects of CRF lead to increased hormone secretion by the pituitary and adrenal glands which prepares the body for defensive action. The body's responses include reduced appetite, decreased sex drive, and heightened alertness. NIMH research suggests that persistent overactivation of this hormonal system may lay the groundwork for depression. The elevated CRF levels detectable in depressed patients are reduced by treatment with antidepressant drugs or ECT, and this reduction corresponds to improvement in depressive symptoms.

    NIMH scientists are investigating how and whether the hormonal research findings fit together with the discoveries from genetics research and monoamine studies.


    As someone who once had a major depressive episode, I believe that external stress caused an increase in my stress hormones which then led to my depression. I do think at that point it was a chemical imbalance because the symptoms were physical even more than mental, but I think that external events caused the chemical imbalance.

    I also believe that not all depression can be lumped as one phenomenon but that there are different types of depression that are usually created through a complex grouping of internal and external events that is different in every case. This is why certain things work for some people and don't work for others.

    I never took medication. Exercise is what helped me to get out of my depression.
     
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  13. LucyJr

    LucyJr Well-known member

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    We just discuss this issue, so I don't know why are you thumbing down my post.
    My response was not to attack you in any way, I am sory if you understood it like that.

    Just to clarify, I am perfectly aware that there are people who think that they are genetic and inately born linked to depression, and they believe that they somehow belong to depression all their life.

    I also want to say that if what I said is true, then is not the case that some people are better then others because they can not be touched by depression ( apparently)

    while others are inherently worse or stupid because they can fight with their own depression, and are "loosers" or somethink like that. So, its not the cause for who is stronger at all.

    Depression is something that is not good, but is also something that occurs naturally in life sometimes.

    Also, depression is closely linked to morality and sin. Sounds too religious, too silly, too unscientific? Perhaps its true.

    If you want to find more, please read "Man's search for meaning" by Victor Frankl. Now that man was a true pshychologist, he knew how to cure depression, even the "genetic" ones.

    You asked to support my claims...
    I will just tell you that the idea that people have a predisposition toward depression in their genes is completely false, science has not discovered such a think and especially doctors...
    This is just a claim from ignorance. They don't know how to treat depression and they assume it must be from genes.
     
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  14. muir

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    Sanity to me is being able to understand what is important and what isn't. We are all capabale of being crazy under this definition....whenever we stall from doing something we know we must do we are being a little bit crazy and sure enough we feel a little tension inside us because what we feel is not in alignmen twith our outer world

    You could even do an experiment to test this. When your next exam comes up.....don't do any work for it......don't revise until the last 5 minutes before you go in......see how relaxed you feel in the run upto the exam! I have tried all combinations of this

    I find that staying up all night before an exam getting stoned is on one hand an effective way of temporarily suppressing the cognitive dissonance but on the other hand a terrible way of trying to pass exams....i don't recommend this approach.....as always with denial it catches up in the end....better to live in alignment with ones feelings!

    I don't disagree with that at all

    The big phenomenon of our times has been THE INTERNET. This has massively accelerated the learning of people. Even youngsters now know info that just wasn't accessible to me growing up...its a wonderful thing

    You tell 10 people something and then they go and they each tell a bunch of people, then those people then go and pass it on and before you know it something has gone viral around the world...incredible!

    But this process is also forcing the hand of those that want to keep things as is (reactionary forces). This is why events are moving so fast in the world.

    I think the things i have talked about here are going to come into sharper and sharper focus...in short it will all make a lot more sense as time goes on

    I don't think so.....i think the people at the top of the pyramid are introverts but they also know that the people that are most likely to blow their cover are introverts so they create a culture that discredits introverts hence the extrovert ideal that is pushed in popular culture

    They want people talking lots but not saying anything

    Things are not totally black and white with Mandella (pun not intended)....south africa has become more unequal since he became president. So he managed to keep the whites and blacks from each others throats for a while but i think that country is a powder keg....one spark and boom! He didn't solve the underlying problems

    Concerning what you are saying here though i'll go back to my point in my first post. i think people need to stop asking themselves ''how do i win at this game?'' and instead start asking themselves things like ''is this a game i even want to be playing?''

    Why do we need to work in their system? Why not reject it and make our own?

    Their system is designed to fail.....it needs to throw people off balance...insecurity is what keeps people wanting to consume
     
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    #54 muir, Jan 9, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2014
  15. muir

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    i think you just supported what i said....depression (hormonal imbalance) is usually caused by external factors (stressors of some kind whether insidious things like life concerns or whether physical stressors like heavy metals in for example food stuffs)

    What got me out of my depression was moving my outer world into alignment with my inner world
     
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  16. niffer

    niffer Well-known member

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    @LucyJr I thumbs downed your post because I think that you making such a claim was misinformation with potentially harmful consequences for a vulnerable person reading it.

    This sounds very intelligent and convincing. I'll take the liberty of bringing some studies into this thread in a bit when I get the chance tonight.
     
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  17. muir

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    yeah i'm not saying that all cases are the same...what i am saying though is that we need to be wary of external interest groups making claims to sell us products

    For example that older psych nurse i knew...he said most anxiety was caused by cognitive dissonance and that too much anxiety leads to mania. But a younger nurse more recently out of nursing school said to me that he believed it was all genetic!!

    Well i have no doubt that big pharma would love for everyone to think all these things were genetic (as if the human race has suddenly evolved to be genetically insane) because then it would justify them to dose us all with drugs!

    There are going to be other cases though that are abnormalities or injuries for sure...but most anxiety out there in society is down to peoples outer world being out of alignment with their inner world
     
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  18. niffer

    niffer Well-known member

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    I agree. I believe also that the scientific community is potentially corrupt in some ways that could have remained overlooked by those both within and outside the community.

    As much as studies or scientific or medical authority may point to one idea or another, it doesn't mean it would be right to sit back and take it in at face value. I think it's far more important to go off of personal experience, develop our own reasoning capabilities, and consider what it is that we have the capability of seeing the truth in versus what we and others wouldn't be able to, and claim our truth from there.
     
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  19. muir

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    Yeah absolutely!

    There is a lot of info online about the connections between the psychiatric association and big pharma. Big pharma basically pays a massive percentage of the funding for the association!

    There is also info about links between big pharma and politicians such as the Bush family

    What really protects us these days except our own knowledge?
     
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  20. LucyJr

    LucyJr Well-known member

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    Ok. I will search too and post it for some evidences.
     
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