Would Adam have died?

[Barnabas]

I had some really interesting conversation with my roommate and found out that I am apparently committed to the pelagian heresey(It's mostly a refutation of Calvinism and infant baptism). But one of the main points is that Adam was created with the intention of having a physical death and that his sin lead to spiritual death, the separation from God. After some reading and like two hours of discussion we came to the conclusion the Adam would have died physically whether or not he had sinned.

I'm interested to know the rest of the communities opinion on this.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I had some really interesting conversation with my roommate and found out that I am apparently committed to the pelagian heresey(It's mostly a refutation of Calvinism and infant baptism). But one of the main points is that Adam was created with the intention of having a physical death and that his sin lead to spiritual death, the separation from God. After some reading and like two hours of discussion we came to the conclusion the Adam would have died physically whether or not he had sinned.

I'm interested to know the rest of the communities opinion on this.

It's not really a matter of opinion, it's a fact--Pelagianism is absolute heresy.

If you subscribe to Pelagianism, particularly the idea that death was just natural, and not a result of sin, then then there's no doubt about it---you're a heretic.

And if a heretic, then you're lost, and if you remain lost, then you'll be damned.

This is quite serious. The Word of God is very clear.

Jesus Christ had to die physically in order to accomplish the payment for our sins.

The Scriptures plainly state: "The wages of sin is death."(Romans 6:23)

That means both physical and spiritual death.

If the wages of sin is only spiritual death, then the physical death of Jesus Christ is unnecessary and meaningless.

Read Hebrews 2:14 and 15 :

Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

[j654dgj7]

I interpret Adam and Eve as an allegory of the first people to sin on Earth ala the monkeys hitting each other with bones to discover death in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Most of the Bible is made up of allegories, and a lot of the Tanakh are stories and fables of kings in the past.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I interpret Adam and Eve as an allegory of the first people to sin on Earth ala the monkeys hitting each other with bones to discover death in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Most of the Bible is made up of allegories, and a lot of the Tanakh are stories and fables of kings in the past.

Your interpretation will take you to hell if God doesn't save you from your delusion.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14 :

These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[SandMizzle]

When God saw that Adam and Eve sinned, they were thrown out of paradise. I am no expert, but my interpretation would be that, when God recognized this "flaw", it decided to make a examination to see who is worth it and who is not, ergo death was created. There would be no reason for a life before death when there was no sin or something, but reason is not the Bibles best friend, so... Just another interpretation.^^

Your interpretation will take you to hell if God doesn't save you from your delusion.
1 Corinthians 2:13-14 :

I'll follow him.. dancing! =)

 

[sprinkles]

There sure would be a lot more people if people didn't die.

 

[sprinkles]

Moreover:

27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

I think it stands to reason that if the first two humans disobeyed God right off the starting line, then it would have been inevitable to happen regardless.

Even if Adam and Eve were not the first to eat that fruit, I'd say that it is almost certain that one of their descendants eventually would.

 

[Eventhorizon]

So did anyone ever play the telephone game in school?

 

[j654dgj7]

Your interpretation will take you to hell if God doesn't save you from your delusion.

I find it interesting that your avatar is a reference to the five solae's about only following the word of Jesus. Jesus was so against what you were saying about dogmas, sinning and the wrath of God that it is mind-boggling to me that you can show us an avatar that says "In Christ Alone" and have a "fire and brimstone" rhetoric.

Solus Christos "In Christ Alone" also refers specifically to the lack of control on behalf of the sinner, and the unmerited grace that God shows us all through his life. Basically it means that we are all sinners, and God loves us for our sins.

I think that it is sad that you are so pre-occupied with dealing out judgment upon others. Jesus himself said that we shouldn't judge others and that in return God wouldn't judge us (John 6:37).

 

[SovereignGrace]

I find it interesting that your avatar is a reference to the five solae's about only following the word of Jesus. Jesus was so against what you were saying about dogmas, sinning and the wrath of God that it is mind-boggling to me that you can show us an avatar that says "In Christ Alone" and have a "fire and brimstone" rhetoric.

Solus Christos "In Christ Alone" also refers specifically to the lack of control on behalf of the sinner, and the unmerited grace that God shows us all through his life. Basically it means that we are all sinners, and God loves us for our sins.

I think that it is sad that you are so pre-occupied with dealing out judgment upon others. Jesus himself said that we shouldn't judge others and that in return God wouldn't judge us (John 6:37).

Almost every mention of hell in the Bible is from the mouth of Jesus himself.

For example:

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

and

Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

And Jesus also said this:

Luke 17:26-30

Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man. They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.
Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all— so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

I'm not judging others. I'm saying that Christ himself will judge, and he will cast sinners into hell.


Again, I would recommend that you read the Bible before you argue biblical doctrine.

You are simply not equipped for this task.

 

[Barnabas]

So did anyone ever play the telephone game in school?

make a another thread about it and i'll refute it there, were talking about death and pelagianism here.

 

[Stu]

Adam was not spirtiualized until he sinned. Living and dying had no meaning without the knowledge of good and evil. (but i am guilty of many heresies, I would be a good Christian if they brought back the stake)

 

[Barnabas]

It's not really a matter of opinion, it's a fact--Pelagianism is absolute heresy.

If you subscribe to Pelagianism, particularly the idea that death was just natural, and not a result of sin, then then there's no doubt about it---you're a heretic.

And if a heretic, then you're lost, and if you remain lost, then you'll be damned.

This is quite serious. The Word of God is very clear.

Jesus Christ had to die physically in order to accomplish the payment for our sins.

The Scriptures plainly state: "The wages of sin is death."(Romans 6:23)

That means both physical and spiritual death.

If the wages of sin is only spiritual death, then the physical death of Jesus Christ is unnecessary and meaningless.

Read Hebrews 2:14 and 15 :

Alright so let's talk about a few things most importantly that the Christ's death would be insignificant if natural death was the standard. Physical sacrifice was the primary form of repentance for the Jews(excusing the times in which they were incapable or not allowed to sacrafice) up until the time of Christ. Physical death has always been the atonement for our separation from God, the sins committed against one another had other punishments which usually didn't involve death. Here's the chapter for Sin offerings in Leviticus, people separate themselves from God and it requires sacrifice for that atonement.

Christ's sacrifice functions on the same principles, he was a pure offering to the Lord for the sins of humanity, but more importantly he was God and in god's sacrifice he covered not only the sins of the past but all future sins that you would need to sacrifice for all that would be left for the people of earth is to follow God.

Secondly, your verse doesn't add anything to the conversation, all it says is that in death Christ free us from the fear of death.


Third on the list, are you a Calvinist? do you believe in original sin, total depravity and perseverance of the saints. Those are the points that Pelagianism and the much more commonly held Arminianism(the link explain the tenets of Arminianism and Calvinism up side by side.)

Finally, the way your talking to the other forum members here, particularly the Christian ones whom you should be addressing with with patience, kindness, humility and love. whether that's me, Vandyke, or any of the other Christians on the forum.Your not doing that, you condemn people, you judge offering no rebuke and only chastisement. I take illogical offense to this, whether it's you or someone else christian or not, the Christians on this forum aren't perfect, all of us are flawed and at different ages in our faith, We all get things wrong we all have flaws in our theology and I imagine most of us don't agree on half the things we believe. But God counts all of us as his children, beautiful and pure in his sight attempting to seek his face. And I won't sit by watch that happen silently.



Edit: I've had this conversation before, your of the opinion that God doesn't love the whole world, we've done this before haven't we?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Alright so let's talk about a few things most importantly that the Christ's death would be insignificant if natural death was the standard. Physical sacrifice was the primary form of repentance for the Jews(excusing the times in which they were incapable or not allowed to sacrafice) up until the time of Christ. Physical death has always been the atonement for our separation from God, the sins committed against one another had other punishments which usually didn't involve death. Here's the chapter for Sin offerings in Leviticus, people separate themselves from God and it requires sacrifice for that atonement.

Christ's sacrifice functions on the same principles, he was a pure offering to the Lord for the sins of humanity, but more importantly he was God and in god's sacrifice he covered not only the sins of the past but all future sins that you would need to sacrifice for all that would be left for the people of earth is to follow God.

Secondly, your verse doesn't add anything to the conversation, all it says is that in death Christ free us from the fear of death.


Third on the list, are you a Calvinist? do you believe in original sin, total depravity and perseverance of the saints. Those are the points that Pelagianism and the much more commonly held Arminianism(the link explain the tenets of Arminianism and Calvinism up side by side.)

Finally, the way your talking to the other forum members here, particularly the Christian ones whom you should be addressing with with patience, kindness, humility and love. whether that's me, Vandyke, or any of the other Christians on the forum.Your not doing that, you condemn people, you judge offering no rebuke and only chastisement. I take illogical offense to this, whether it's you or someone else christian or not, the Christians on this forum aren't perfect, all of us are flawed and at different ages in our faith, We all get things wrong we all have flaws in our theology and I imagine most of us don't agree on half the things we believe. But God counts all of us as his children, beautiful and pure in his sight attempting to seek his face. And I won't sit by watch that happen silently.



Edit: I've had this conversation before, your of the opinion that God doesn't love the whole world, we've done this before haven't we?

The first part of your post is just dead wrong. Especially this:

Physical death has always been the atonement for our separation from God, the sins committed against one another had other punishments which usually didn't involve death.

That's one of the most blasphemous things I've ever seen. I'm totally amazed.

Are you saying that we atone for ourselves, and Christ's atonement is meaningless?

That certainly seems to be the suggestion you're making.


Furthermore, I'm not judging anyone. I'm saying Christ is the judge, and he will condemn the world for it's sin.

There is only ONE way to be saved from God's wrath--to be vitally joined to Christ by faith.

The responses I'm giving are fair and unbiased. People are just reading evil motives into them.

And the people I've responded to are not just confused, they're lost. They don't have the slightest idea who Christ is, or what he's done. In other words, they are not Christians.

It will not help them one bit to pretend they are saved. They must be corrected and humbled by Scripture.

Again, if they read evil motives into what I'm saying, there's really not much I can do.

 

[muir]

Don't sweat it...an all knowing, all loving god isn't going to be a dick or he/she wouldn't be all loving and all knowing

 

[Cornerstone]

I made this point in a recent post but it's a fairly new occurrance to me so I'll say it here since it is relevant.

First, I didn't know the name for it but Pelagianism sounds right to me. I don't believe in 'Original Sin' since I don't believe in Sin as it is defined and that a thing is right or wrong because God says so. I believe a thing is right or wrong based on what you're trying to do. We are all trying to 'be' God, but I don't think it is possible to emulate God without losing ones own sense of self completely. I don't believe there can be Man and God (in the omnipotent/omniscient/omnibenevolent) sense, only we can encounter God in all things and they exist in vary states of knowing and, I believe, our capacity to love comes from our awareness of the characteristics of God. i.e. what religions call virtues. Sin is all the opposite actions, words and thoughts...everything that does not occur to God in its most absolute form.

Now, in my mind, Jesus is the closest we can possibly get to what I have just said I don't believe is possible whilst we are in human form. I believe that evolution continues toward our creator after we leave this body and so it was likely a very highly evolved being (something akin to an angel) who became human as Jesus. Only a soul like this could possibly undertake such a mission as to be the vessel for God in the absolute sense whilst living. However, I don't believe this soul and God (or the Holy Spirit) were ever in the body of Jesus at the same time. So, in essence, Jesus was an extremely Holy man all throughout his life. However, he was also, for some time at least, the Holy Spirit (God) in physical form and that this was the only way people of the time (or even ourselves) would possibly be able to be in the presence of God and still stay 'alive'. I think this may even be the case in the life beyond this one.

I do believe that there may be consequences to a life of 'sin'. These may very well involve great anguish, suffering and gnashing of teeth.
However, I don't believe that it is punishment and I don't believe it is forever (not least because I don't believe linear time exists on the other side, but that would make it more likely to potentially last forever since it would be until it isn't, as would all things). I do believe we would do well to make the choice now but if it isn't enough when the time comes, a belief in the magnificent person Jesus described above would be a belief worth hanging onto when things get dark. I do also believe that this belief has to be genuine and that it cannot be faked.

Oh, and holy books? I take them with a pinch of salt. There has been waaay too much interference over centuries.

 

[Cornerstone]

Oh, bloody nora! I forgot to answer the question!

In brief, no. I don't believe anything has to die at all. However, this is, by its nature, a finite experience.
There are times when it is less finite, but this is not one of them. I believe it is fair to say that this is a more tribulatory era if there were to be a scale.
Tribulatory especially if you do consider 'sin', acting how God doesn't, to have an effect on the physical body.
I think it can be proven easily that it does, but we would have to take examples of negative things because we don't have a definition of 'sin' or 'God'.
Negative actions harm the body, words lead to action and thoughts can be the basis of our entire way of being that leads to word and deed.
I think physical deterioration is the result of being un-Godly...but that it is bound to happen and possibly even intended to happen.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hebrews 2:14-15

Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Secondly, your verse doesn't add anything to the conversation, all it says is that in death Christ free us from the fear of death.

Well, I don't have time to write a decent response right now, but I may preach my next sermon on this. I'll keep you posted.

 

[just me]

The fall of man; Genesis: [SUP]15 [/SUP]And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This command was given before woman.


[SUP]23 [/SUP]And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

Yet, they were ashamed later after they had received the knowledge of good and evil; causing them to hide themselves with fig leaves.

"What have we done?"

They were cast away from the garden so they could not take from the Tree of Life and live forever. I do not read or study heresy.

 

[magister343]

Man was created naturally fully mortal, in mortal bodies without anything that could be called an immortal soul.

This does not however mean that it was ever intended for him to die.

Only God has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16), but others may partake in life indefinitely so long as they are sustained by the gift of His grace. Adam may have lost this, but those who are in Christ shall enjoy it in the last days once they are resurrected and translated into incorruptible bodies like that of the risen Christ.

The wages of sin is not eternal torture, but non-existence. Separation from God requires separation from existence itself, as God is present everywhere.

David plainly stated that God is present in Sheol (Psalms 139:8), which is sometimes translated as hell but more plainly means the grave, or the abode of all the dead. Solomon was clear that the dead in Sheol are not conscious of anything (Ecclesiastes 9:10).

Jesus never spoke of "hell" as modern man conventionally thinks of it. He spoke of Hades. This literally means "the unseen," and could refer to anything hidden under the surface of the earth. (It was not only the mythological place of the dead, but also the physical place of the grave, of gold mines, etc.) It was the standard Greek translation for the Hebrew Sheol. He also spoke of Gehenna, which is simply "the valley of the sons of Hinnom," the location of Jerusalem's garbage dump. This was not a place of torment, but of the destruction of worthless trash. This rubbish included corpses of animals and of humans who were considered so wicked that they did not deserve an honorable grave.



Pelagius was actually found to be completely Orthodox every time that he was given the opportunity to explain his own beliefs. He was only ever declared heretical when tried in absentia by those who chose to go by third party descriptions of his views rather than hear his actual teachings. His opinions were probably misrepresented by his enemies. Modern scholars increasingly lean towards the opinion that Pelagius was highly orthodox, even if some of his students might not have been. Augustine was a greater innovator of doctrines, and also had a much poorer understanding of the language in which the holy Scriptures were written. I find that John Calvin's theology often resembles a reductio ad absurdum of Augustine's errors.



A Heresy is merely a school of thought though. It comes from a root meaning "choice," particularly the choice of what school of thought a man decided was most correct after examining the evidence. It was not originally derogatory. The bible itself uses the Greek word in a value neutral sense to describe the Sadducee, Pharisees, and even the early Christian church itself. There is nothing wrong with being a heretic and being right. I'd rather each of us chose for ourselves after examining the evidence rather than blindly following whatever tradition we happened to be taught.