Why the Poor are FAT | Page 3 | INFJ Forum

Why the Poor are FAT

Poor people are poor because they spend more money on food than the rich. Thus they become fat.

Then because they are fat they are slower at working and thus earn less.

Thus they become more poor and more fat!

Perpetual fat>slow entropy!
 
Bird: maybe I am just that dumb and getting dumber. But I don't troll. I'm repeating what my doctor told me: that my particular biology has not evolved to handle the agricultural revolution. Another factor was the psychotropic meds I was on -- it is well known that many psych meds cause metabolic disorder. Geodon and Ability were like poison to my body. Paxil and Depakote also caused weight gain. I ended up choosing to go off these meds, even though it means the mood swings coming back, simply because I felt they were doing a kind of slow motion suicide from diabetes.


I recently quit taking geodon so it's interesting you bring that up. I didn't
like the effect it had on my body either. I'm glad you chose to go off the
meds because it is a choice and unfortunately you cannot place blame on
things when you are the one that chose to make those choices.
I'm not trying to imply that you are placing blame where it isn't due, this
is a general statement not one specific for you.
 
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what role does Gluttony play? What is it to be gluttonous?

I gotta believe that many of the obesse are trying to divert the focus of their lives away from something. Gluttony, obesity and poverty may be the symptoms of a greater travail.

They are.

Research shows correlations with obesity and low income areas for many reasons. One is the preponderance of fast food vs quality food restaurants.
Here in my area we have no quality food restaurants. It's similar all throughout the rural counties. Our diabetes and obesity rates are higher than state averages.
When only part time jobs are available many of the lower income working class have to hold multiple jobs to make ends meet. There isn't much time to prepare and cook meals - so they resort to convenience. We all know those kinds of foods are high calorie and low nutrient which creates a need to consume more.
The poor or lower income persons aren't very active due to minimum income and access to having "fun" by getting out is not practical. Movie theaters, bike paths, zoos, etc are located a far distance from poor or low income housing. Transportation becomes an issue.

Quite a few of the disabled are poor and this includes the mentally disabled. As [MENTION=4576]GracieRuth[/MENTION] pointed out, being on mental health prescriptions is often a ticket for becoming obese.

Then there is depression. We all know being depressed is correlated with gaining weight. (Not Major Depressive Disorder). The brain rewards the body with a spike in dopamine when we eat and dopamine makes one feel good. Food addictions increase.

When you combine many of these factors with processed foods high is sugar/fat/salt (the most addictive taste) promoted by corporations - you have a complicated situation where people gain weight and it's hard to take off.
 
Isn't it just so happens that the most longlasting food possible is also the easiest foods to make you fat?

In the opposite side of the road, the healthiest food don't tend to stay long...
And that they are, of course, more expensive.

IDEALLY speaking, of course it's good and people should eat more healthy food.
But reality speaking.... what's worse, fat people or wasted, spoiled food?
Eating thrice a day of bad, instant food, or eating good, healthy food once a day?
Eating thrice for your entire family, or eating once for yourself?

Coming from someone without any experience in these kind of things. I'm sorry if my words are offending. But don't tell me I don't know the value of cheap products. Let me tell you that $1.5 dollars can feed someone 3 times a day here. Even two, if you are really desperate and poor.
 
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I have three overweight friends that have tried several diets(usually the starvation kind) with little success, sure they lost some weight for awhile but staying on a starvation diet is extremely difficult. One of my friends also had very high blood sugar levels, he was not far from becoming a diabetic.
I talked to them about carbs/sugars etc and convinced them to try cutting all sugars from their diets, and cut down heavily on carbs
such as pasta/rice/potatoes etc. They were to replace these with more fats/proteins non processed foods(Eggs,fatty meats,veggies,cream,butter etc). They all started loosing weight and the guy with the high blood sugar had this lowered a lot as well, and this without adding exercise or changing anything else in their lives, just the diet(not calorie restricted btw).

The only real way to help the poor is a combination of good public education and social mobility. It doesn't help those who are poor right now, but it changes things in the long haul. The poor right now are fat because they can afford to eat more food than they need. There might be more or less legitimate reasons why they end up eating more than they need, but you can't violate the laws of thermodynamics that it all boils down to: if calories in > calories out you get fat
This is such an oversimplification its not even funny, you don't even specify which off the thermodynamic laws you are talking about and how those specific laws relate to the metabolic system. The body is not a machine in the same manner as say a car, the human body in contrast to the car is a self regulating system. It does this through hormones such as insulin(funny that insulin is a fat storage hormone and also a culprit in diabetics). Not all calories are the same to the human body and they are metabolized differently, carbs cause much higher insulin spikes than fat does for instance.

Anyways instead of me just regurgitating information that is easily available on the internet I think i'm better off just pointing you and others to relevant information about this, so here are some informative lectures and some reading material.
[video=youtube;dBnniua6-oM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM[/video]
[video=youtube;bTUspjZG-wc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTUspjZG-wc[/video]
If you do anything watch the below video, the opening is hilarious.
The entire video is a funny bitchslap to much of conventional "wisdom" when it comes to food.
[video=youtube;exi7O1li_wA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exi7O1li_wA[/video]

http://garytaubes.com/2010/12/inanity-of-overeating/
http://www.why-low-carb-diets-work.com/first-law-of-thermodynamics.html
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/is-a-calorie-always-a-calorie/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC506782/
 
The poor are fat. The middle class is fat. The wealthy are fat. This is a complex, multi-factorial problem that touches all levels of society. And, it's getting worse. If you're inclined toward medicine or physiology, the study of obesity has a great future.
 
This is such an oversimplification its not even funny, you don't even specify which off the thermodynamic laws you are talking about and how those specific laws relate to the metabolic system. The body is not a machine in the same manner as say a car, the human body in contrast to the car is a self regulating system. It does this through hormones such as insulin(funny that insulin is a fat storage hormone and also a culprit in diabetics). Not all calories are the same to the human body and they are metabolized differently, carbs cause much higher insulin spikes than fat does for instance.
It is a valid simplification. If you cannot see that you are incapable of rational, logic thought. I'm going to assume that's the case, but I'll give you a chance and elaborate on why it is that simple, and why your arguments are irrelevant.

The laws of thermodynamics are well-proven, and if you look them up it's easy to see which ones are relevant to this issue. They're very generic, and their consequences are more relevant than the laws themselves, mainly the implication that energy can not disappear, it can just move from one state to another. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics )

There's nothing magical about the body which makes it able to violate the laws of thermodynamics, yet you claim that without backing it up with anything.

My simplification is valid, because it allows for metabolic variance with calories from different sources.

Two extreme examples, assume a base metabolic rate of 2000 kCal per day, where the only variance is the diet, and that the figures for thermic effect I found for fat, sugar, protein hold in this individual, respectively 0%, 15%, 25%.
A: a diet where 2500kCal comes from 50% sugar and 50% fat.
Metabolic rate ends up at 2187.5, accounting for the thermic effect of the sugar.
The person has a calorie surplus of 312.5 kCal which has to go somewhere -> weight gain.
B: a diet where 2500kCal comes from 100% protein.
Metabolic rate ends up at 2625kCal accounting for the thermic effect of the protein.
The person has a calorie deficiency of 125kCal, which has to come from somewhere. -> weight loss.

As you can see from the examples; I know what I'm talking about, and that my simplification is valid, because it simplifies both in and out. It's a simplification that has it's uses, and needs to be understood, because the balance between energy in and energy out is essential to understanding weight loss, weight gain, and weight balance. It is a magic bullet, but you can't use a bullet without a gun. Any method that results in weight loss works because of the implications given by this simplification.

The human body is a machine and can be studied as one. It is also a thermodynamic system and can be studied as one. It's more than a machine, but that does not mean it can't and shouldn't be studied as one when it's needed to understand what happens. Do you need to fully understand everything that happens in order to deliberately gain, maintain, or lose weight? No. But you have to, if you're to constructively debate causes of obesity.

By calling my valid simplification an oversimplification you've just proved that you lack understanding, and possibly the capability for rational thought. It is impossible to have weight loss without having a calorie deficiency when you add up the numbers for energy in and energy out. It doesn't matter where the deficiency comes from, without it there's no weight loss. No matter if it's an artificially controlled deficiency from counting, or from a diet which makes it easy to have a deficiency.
 
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Genetics, in utero environment and stress would be my big three.

Also another one is simply discrimination, two equal workers, one fat and the other slim, the slim one will be promoted.
 
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Genetics, in utero environment and stress would be my big three.

Also another one is simply discrimination, two equal workers, one fat and the other slim, the slim one will be promoted.

+1000
 
Krutz you are my new best friend! Thank you for offering everyone in the forum some quality scientific videos. The Fat Fiasco video was in particular most excellent -- it not only gave the latest in scientific results on diet, but it helps teach people to properly review scientific studies. I have spent the last 20 years reviewing the evidence to try to figure WHY I put on wieght and became diabetic when I switched to the carb heavy diet advocated by the Food pyramid. I wish I had known all of this 20 years ago. It just makes me ANGRY that my entire society advocated that I switch to a diet that was essentially poisonous-- low cal, low fat, high carb. I put this video up on my facebook page, hoping that the young adults in my family will watch it before they've been screwed over the way I was.

The more I think about this, the closer I come to crying. You see, diabetes attacks EVERYTHING. My whole body is now FUBAR. I am no longer a functionable member of society, and a lot of it has to do with how the whole diet and diabetes thing impacted my ability to form new memories -- I lost several jobs in a row because I can't remember instructions.. I wake up every struggling with whether a life of screwing around on the internet and barely going outside of the home is worth living. And I can trace all of it back to one single moment of clarity that I chose to ignore:

I remember talking with my older brother that I was concerned about putting on weight even though I was working out several hours a week. My brother responsed with the conventional wisdom of the time : if you eat fat, you become fat. I remember like a video recording him saying "Doesn't that just make sense?"
Actually my response was to think, "No actually that's not sound reasoning." But did I listen to myself? NO. Back then I trusted the consensus a lot more than my own ability to reason. I figured, "Everyone is saying this same thing, I need to listen to the consensus of the scientific community." It was the absolute worst decision I ever made in my life. I dropped meat from my diet, lowered the fat, lowered the calories, upped the carbs... and put on more weight than ever, eventually destroying my own life. I feel so bitter knowing what a stupid thing I did.

So please, please everyone, just watch these videos. I wouldn't wish my life on my worst enemy.

I have three overweight friends that have tried several diets(usually the starvation kind) with little success, sure they lost some weight for awhile but staying on a starvation diet is extremely difficult. One of my friends also had very high blood sugar levels, he was not far from becoming a diabetic.
I talked to them about carbs/sugars etc and convinced them to try cutting all sugars from their diets, and cut down heavily on carbs
such as pasta/rice/potatoes etc. They were to replace these with more fats/proteins non processed foods(Eggs,fatty meats,veggies,cream,butter etc). They all started loosing weight and the guy with the high blood sugar had this lowered a lot as well, and this without adding exercise or changing anything else in their lives, just the diet(not calorie restricted btw).


This is such an oversimplification its not even funny, you don't even specify which off the thermodynamic laws you are talking about and how those specific laws relate to the metabolic system. The body is not a machine in the same manner as say a car, the human body in contrast to the car is a self regulating system. It does this through hormones such as insulin(funny that insulin is a fat storage hormone and also a culprit in diabetics). Not all calories are the same to the human body and they are metabolized differently, carbs cause much higher insulin spikes than fat does for instance.

Anyways instead of me just regurgitating information that is easily available on the internet I think i'm better off just pointing you and others to relevant information about this, so here are some informative lectures and some reading material.
[video=youtube;dBnniua6-oM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM[/video]
[video=youtube;bTUspjZG-wc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTUspjZG-wc[/video]
If you do anything watch the below video, the opening is hilarious.
The entire video is a funny bitchslap to much of conventional "wisdom" when it comes to food.
[video=youtube;exi7O1li_wA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exi7O1li_wA[/video]

http://garytaubes.com/2010/12/inanity-of-overeating/
http://www.why-low-carb-diets-work.com/first-law-of-thermodynamics.html
http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/metabolism/is-a-calorie-always-a-calorie/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC506782/
 
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jzono: your statements ARE an oversimplification, and there is more than adequate clinical research that shows you are mistaken. The studies cited in the vids that Krutz offered basically debunk the "calories in minus calories burned equals fast stored" theory, the "fat people are lazy" theory, and the "high lipids diet equals heart disease" theory. IOW you are beginning with a good scientific mindset, but now you need to trash these older theories that have collapsed in a pile of new evidence to the contrary.
 
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Sorry; but it isn't an oversimplification.

You can't violate the laws of thermodynamics.

Yes, the body can regulate it's metabolism - but there's limits to how flexible it is. Since this regulation is encompassed by the calories out part of the equation - my simplification accounts for it.

The surplus calories have to go somewhere. It is that simple.

Are you seriously claiming that the human body is capable of violating the laws of thermodynamics?---

Put anyone with a clear goal when it comes to weight, on a calorie-controlled diet with more or less calories than needed - and you see predictable weight loss or gain over time - if they manage to stick to the diet. (and that's a big if.)

Arguably there's better, and worse dietary choices when it comes to diets where you rely on the human body to self-regulate intake. (And even on a diet supposedly good at that... some people have broken self-regulation mechanisms due to past diets or habits.)

Of those older theories you mention, there's only one which I adhere to, and I don't phrase it the same way.

---

I thought it was common knowledge to avoid fast carbs, restrict slow carbs, and try to make regular meals with a low GI when you're a diabetic. I know my dad has been eating that way since he got his type 1 diabetes, and that's what? 40 years ago. So the information on how to eat correctly in that case has been out there for decades.
 
Sorry; but it isn't an oversimplification.

You can't violate the laws of thermodynamics.

Yes, the body can regulate it's metabolism - but there's limits to how flexible it is. Since this regulation is encompassed by the calories out part of the equation - my simplification accounts for it.

The surplus calories have to go somewhere. It is that simple.

Are you seriously claiming that the human body is capable of violating the laws of thermodynamics?---

Put anyone with a clear goal when it comes to weight, on a calorie-controlled diet with more or less calories than needed - and you see predictable weight loss or gain over time - if they manage to stick to the diet. (and that's a big if.)

Arguably there's better, and worse dietary choices when it comes to diets where you rely on the human body to self-regulate intake. (And even on a diet supposedly good at that... some people have broken self-regulation mechanisms due to past diets or habits.)

Of those older theories you mention, there's only one which I adhere to, and I don't phrase it the same way.

---

I thought it was common knowledge to avoid fast carbs, restrict slow carbs, and try to make regular meals with a low GI when you're a diabetic. I know my dad has been eating that way since he got his type 1 diabetes, and that's what? 40 years ago. So the information on how to eat correctly in that case has been out there for decades.

i think people just get tired of the endless quoting of the laws of thermodynamics/CICO when all it really explains is the How and the What, not the Why.

Why do people get/stay fat?

Because they overeat/under exercise

Why do some people overeat untill the reach an equilibrium higher than others (get fat)?

Because they're lazy/greedy

Why are they lazy/greedy in this context? Do they have lazy souls? That's not a good enough expanation.

The answer to the obesity problem is not answered by the laws of thermodynamics, they just state the problem again, that calories in have exceeded calories out, The answer is in finding out WHY can't they maintain calories out over calories in sufficiently?
 
I deliberately avoid the why, because arguing about why in a discussion where people lack a basic understanding of the how and what is futile.

---

The human body isn't perfectly adapted to the world we live in today. We changed the game, so mechanisms that worked well before the agricultural revolution, don't always work perfect today. In an evolutionary perspective, just moments ago it made sense to get fat when there was enough food for it.

It's not the only way in which the parameters given by modern civilization can make the human instincts misbehave. Another example of this is risk calculation; go with instincts, and modern hazards pass by unnoticed.

The human body is a very adaptive machine. A part of that adaptability lies in storing energy when there's a surplus, and conserving energy when there's a deficiency. Another part of that adaptability is being able to survive on many different diets.

---

My bet is on... learned habits/environment. Genes might be relevant, but their significance is increased or decreased based on environment and habits. Get onto an unhealthy track, and things just get worse over time - especially if one lacks the knowledge that gives a baseline for what's normal, and what's healthy.

There's no simple universal explanation to why people chose to eat more than they need to. (It's a choice, but sometimes individuals are incapable of seeing it that way, for good, or for bad reasons.) I'm not blaming laziness or greed. It's a huge, and important issue - and it affects all of us. (Given a non-fucked-up worldview where the progress of mankind as a whole is seen as an ok thing.)
 
There is definitely a genetic element, children who are adopted almost always resemble the size of their biological parents rather than their adoptive parents. So whatever environmental influence that cause obesity, it must be extremely pervasive for thin parents of adoptees to have no effect.

There is not enough talk in the media about the fact that obese people are genetically very different to slim people, there needs to be an awareness that people with obesity may well have to work much harder than their slim friends to maintain a lower weight. Using thin relatives and friends as a reference point is probably misleading. Just as some people with inherited allergies must work extremely hard to avoid allergans where others don't need to bother.

I think our whole approach to obesity needs to be in considering it to something similar to an allergy rather than a sin/vice or bad habit like smoking.
 
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How do you respond to the part about the obese insulin resistant lab mice that starve to death without losing any weight?
 
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How do you respond to the part about the obese insulin resistant lab mice that starve to death without losing any weight?
This is the kind of post I love -- a single sentence that cuts to the crux of the issue. I can only aspire to think as rationally and write as concisely as you.
 
How do you respond to the part about the obese insulin resistant lab mice that starve to death without losing any weight?

As the husband of an endocrinologist, I can say that you make a good point.

I used to think that the calories in/calories out argument was correct. And, from a thermodynamic point of view, it is (thermodynamics always applies). The problem is that the body is not a simple black box. Rather, it's a complex black box with multiple compartments. Insulin moves sugar into cells and it causes lipids to be made into fats. If you can keep your insulin levels uniformly low (e.g. by limiting high glycemic index carbohydrate intake) and your insulin sensitivity high (i.e., it takes less insulin to effect sugar transport into cells), you don't make fat as efficiently and lipids floating around in your blood either get excreted or transformed into triglycerides. So, the low carb/slow carb hypothesis appears to be motivated by a valid physiologic mechanism. High caloric density products such as candy and other sweets, french fries, and potato chips are high in simple, high glycemic index sugars and starches (i.e., carbohydrates) and calorie dense fats. Ingestion of these "foods" causes large insulin spikes in the blood, which, in turn, efficiently make lipids into fats instead of triglycerides or facilitating lipid excretion. Additionally, metabolism is not constant. When overweight people diet, their metabolisms slow and it takes even fewer calories to maintain weight. This is because evolutionary processes have selected for a human physiology that goes into a conservation mode (i.e., slower metabolism) when food is scarce and calories are less available. As I wrote before, obesity is a multi-factorial, complex problem, which, if you can detach yourself from its emotional aspects, is incredibly interesting.