Why Metaphysics fails to be adequate?

[Eventhorizon]

The Bible isn’t a bad thing....in fact no religious book is a bad thing....they have become “bad” things when people use fear, intimidation, to gain power for themselves via that religion. This goes back for centuries....the “Christian” church is a prime example of that...the Crusades, the witch trials, the fear of Hell and it’s unimaginable unrelenting tortures. A true Christian would help the poor, would not look down upon anyone, would love those who have wronged him, would not be rich.
Even more scary than the Catholic church now is the right-wing evangelical “christians” who have excluded so many....Immigrants, Gays, Liberal minded people.
For immigrants - 'We are called to discern among, “sojourners” (like Ruth and Rahab who intend to assimilate and bless) and “foreigners” (who do not intend to assimilate and bless) and to welcome the former with hospitality.”
For those affluent “Christians” - "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God. - Matthew 19:24.”
And then you have the story of the rich man and Lazarus....Lazarus was a beggar for scraps of food. Lazarus ends up in heaven while the rich man ends up in “Hell”.
"No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. - Luke 16:13.”
On war and peace - "You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. - Matthew 5:38-42, Luke 27-30.”
On women’s place - "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28”
Religious fundamentalism ignores such quotations or twists them into something that suits their own needs which is find vile and disgusting.
Think, if Jesus were president would the poor be fed? Would the rich in this country continue to gouge the poor and middle class? Would we all have medical care?
I find it incredible morally and personally wrong that those who are poor in this country or those who have food stamps are looked down upon.
The poor are treated as if they have some sort of moral failure and therefore do not deserve help. That attitude repels me.

I personally think the bible is a bad thing. I think the original idea of a God is not necessarily bad. I think that once people realized the idea had power over people, they took it, changed it, edited and manipulated the idea to gain power. The bible is mans words put in place to manipulate and control mankind. The original idea long lost.

I think the belief in a kind benevolent god who only has mankinds best interest at heart is also bad. I imagine a doctor who has a cancer patient being able to sleep at night because of his belief in a god. "Oh I have done all I can, they are in Gods hands now." When maybe a little more effort on their part might be what actually makes a difference to the person fighting cancer.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Could be genetic memory maybe?

What's been shown is that a species itself is almost like a symbiotic colony in a way - similar to a large organism. Kind of like the plant called King's Lomatia - it is a clonal colony, all specimens of it are genetically identical clones, and the plant does not reproduce as it has no seeds or fruits. Instead, when a part of the plant drops off to the soil it grows roots, so currently all King's Lomatia in existence are derived from just one plant which has been around for more than 40,000 years.

Genetic memory is also displayed in the Portia genus of jumping spider. Portia spiders of the same species will have different inborn behaviors depending on where they were raised and what unique prey exists there, as if they remember how their ancestors handled this prey.

Is genetic memory not the same thing as instinct. Say, a colt knowing how to stand without being taught?

 

[sprinkles]

Is genetic memory not the same thing as instinct. Say, a colt knowing how to stand without being taught?

No, because it is like learning except not in one specimen. It's learning that takes place over generations - habits that are developed via experience and through evolution.

It would be like if you learn a new language and your genes become slowly modified to incorporate that language as knowledge in your offspring. It's more than instinct because you had to learn it, which is different than say being born with an already present genetic mutation that gets carried on via selection.

Edit:
Or to put it more clearly, instinct is present in the entire species as an inherent behavior. Genetic memory is not based on species genetics, but individual lineage genetics - so one specific family line can actually learn things and pass them on, which is what happens with the Portia spiders. Members of the same species do not have the same instincts if they lived in different places which shows that spiders of a given lineage have developed their habits independently as opposed to species wide instinct.

 

[Jack]

The universe is more fun if magic is real. And as a matter of fact, most of the people on the planet today believe in magic or similar forces even though they are a small minority in the U.S.A. and similar advanced countries.

Some people just want magic to be real. Or they want the universe to be more than it is. It is really a spiritual thing for many people (i.e. belief in 'energy'). Some people have even written books about how science is supposedly shifting toward such a view. The new age group has gotten a hold of quantum mechanics and many believe that it somehow will come to fully prove their so far unfounded beliefs about 'energy'.

So basically, it is just people trying to impose religion on science, which is not unusual given the history of science (it developed closely with Christianity). Science will survive and the experiments will probably never prove what they claim to prove and be accepted as widely as the books written on the subject claim they are. But since the primary motivation for believing in that stuff is not rational anyway, that hardly matters. Just be careful when they tell you that you can use the power of intention to get more money or otherwise fulfill your life's desires. It ain't that easy.

Don't be silly, of course magic is real. You only don't remember to be mystified because you've grown up with it.

After all, to use scientific language, the reason things have the properties they do is a <strike>mystery</strike> brute fact.

 

[Skarekrow]

Sorry if I miss anything....I have started back to work and have a more limited amount of time on here than I would like.

I personally think the bible is a bad thing. I think the original idea of a God is not necessarily bad. I think that once people realized the idea had power over people, they took it, changed it, edited and manipulated the idea to gain power. The bible is mans words put in place to manipulate and control mankind. The original idea long lost.

I think the belief in a kind benevolent god who only has mankinds best interest at heart is also bad. I imagine a doctor who has a cancer patient being able to sleep at night because of his belief in a god. "Oh I have done all I can, they are in Gods hands now." When maybe a little more effort on their part might be what actually makes a difference to the person fighting cancer.

I still don’t think the Bible is a bad thing if it is looked at for what it is...with the understanding that it has been changed, omitted, and edited.
You also have to understand that certain aspects of the Bible no longer are sensible....such as having two sets of plates for meats and for dairy, such as the rule that orthodox jews still follow. This “law” was most likely made because people were getting sick from cross-contmination between the meats and dairy, as they would usually drink a bowl full of milk at the end of a meal. The pottery of the time was porous and would hold the bacteria from the meat until the milk released it....making them ill.
So at the time it was very relevant, but in today’s day it is overdoing it and nonsensical.
But you cannot simply dismiss the whole Bible, just as I pointed out in a previous post the churches of today purposefully ignore verses, such as the ones speaking of wealth being a bad thing, or how you should treat immigrants with respect...or how you shouldn’t be a warring person or nation....you should “turn the other cheek” it is no longer “an eye for an eye”.
In fact if people were to really read the Bible for what it is and not put their own social, moral, and political twists on it we would have a much more prosperous nation...they would feed and clothe the poor, be more peaceful and excepting of everyone regardless of their race, sexual preference, creed color etc....
The message of Jesus was very similar to the message of Buddha, in the book Living Buddha, Living Christ, Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh asserted, "When you are a truly happy Christian, you are also a Buddhist. And vice versa.”
I can go deeper into the comparisons if you are interested...some even believe that Jesus WAS an incarnation of Buddha.

No, because it is like learning except not in one specimen. It's learning that takes place over generations - habits that are developed via experience and through evolution.

It would be like if you learn a new language and your genes become slowly modified to incorporate that language as knowledge in your offspring. It's more than instinct because you had to learn it, which is different than say being born with an already present genetic mutation that gets carried on via selection.

Edit:
Or to put it more clearly, instinct is present in the entire species as an inherent behavior. Genetic memory is not based on species genetics, but individual lineage genetics - so one specific family line can actually learn things and pass them on, which is what happens with the Portia spiders. Members of the same species do not have the same instincts if they lived in different places which shows that spiders of a given lineage have developed their habits independently as opposed to species wide instinct.

Yes, interestingly there is genetic memory that can exist at birth in the absence of any sensory experience...a good example is language...it is considered to be partially a product of genetic memory...children are predisposed to speak a language, but only partially because you cannot predispose them to a specific native tongue.
But how much is in our genes and how much is what one would call “past life memory”? There are numerous cases of children knowing things that they just should not by any means know. Some children have even gone so far as to know their identity and upon further exploration people have found it to be correct.

 

[sprinkles]

Sorry if I miss anything....I have started back to work and have a more limited amount of time on here than I would like.

Yes, interestingly there is genetic memory that can exist at birth in the absence of any sensory experience...a good example is language...it is considered to be partially a product of genetic memory...children are predisposed to speak a language, but only partially because you cannot predispose them to a specific native tongue.
But how much is in our genes and how much is what one would call “past life memory”? There are numerous cases of children knowing things that they just should not by any means know. Some children have even gone so far as to know their identity and upon further exploration people have found it to be correct.

I'd say it's all of the above at the same time. Interdependence, and initial conditions.

[video=youtube;XcuBvj0pw-E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcuBvj0pw-E[/video]

 

[Skarekrow]

I'd say it's all of the above at the same time. Interdependence, and initial conditions.

[video=youtube;XcuBvj0pw-E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcuBvj0pw-E[/video]

Very interesting!
I was watching a show the other night about how eventually we will integrate ourselves with machines. Most likely they will be like nanobots smaller than your cells, injected into your bloodstream to do any number of things....they can of course fix medical issues with us, but more exciting, they will interface with the neurons in your brain, giving you any number of abilities that we don’t have now, such as - more memory, but not memory as we know it, but the ability to recall a picture of scene with a picture perfect detail. The ability to go into the virtual world of the internet in our minds...to be whomever or whatever you wish to be while you are there...
There is a Russian billionaire...I can’t recall his name (my nanobots aren’t working yet)....he has spent a huge amount of money in order to have the ability to upload your consciousness into a machine or robot, allowing you to basically live forever with no disease, no limitations...you could travel in space with no need of food or oxygen, or physical limitations such as temperature. His goal is to do it by 2045. The question is....if your brain and neurons are mapped down to the smallest detail and then transferred into a machine, is it actually you? Is it conscious? It’s a bizarre thought to ponder.

 

[sprinkles]

Very interesting!
I was watching a show the other night about how eventually we will integrate ourselves with machines. Most likely they will be like nanobots smaller than your cells, injected into your bloodstream to do any number of things....they can of course fix medical issues with us, but more exciting, they will interface with the neurons in your brain, giving you any number of abilities that we don’t have now, such as - more memory, but not memory as we know it, but the ability to recall a picture of scene with a picture perfect detail. The ability to go into the virtual world of the internet in our minds...to be whomever or whatever you wish to be while you are there...
There is a Russian billionaire...I can’t recall his name (my nanobots aren’t working yet)....he has spent a huge amount of money in order to have the ability to upload your consciousness into a machine or robot, allowing you to basically live forever with no disease, no limitations...you could travel in space with no need of food or oxygen, or physical limitations such as temperature. His goal is to do it by 2045. The question is....if your brain and neurons are mapped down to the smallest detail and then transferred into a machine, is it actually you? Is it conscious? It’s a bizarre thought to ponder.

Well, entertaining the illusion that 'you' is there to begin with, I'd say it would be 'you' in as much as anything can be you.

As you probably know, 'you' get transferred to new cells constantly as time goes on. Cells die and are replaced all the time, with the limited exception of neurons which are basically information circuits - but the neurons aren't really you either because they need the rest of the body to function.

I'd say as long as the information is the same, it wouldn't matter what is carrying it.

What makes you be you? The information carried in you, or what the stuff is made of that carries that information?

If you write a word on a blackboard, and write the word on paper, it's the same word isn't it? Or is it?

 

[Skarekrow]

Well, entertaining the illusion that 'you' is there to begin with, I'd say it would be 'you' in as much as anything can be you.

As you probably know, 'you' get transferred to new cells constantly as time goes on. Cells die and are replaced all the time, with the limited exception of neurons which are basically information circuits - but the neurons aren't really you either because they need the rest of the body to function.

I'd say as long as the information is the same, it wouldn't matter what is carrying it.

What makes you be you? The information carried in you, or what the stuff is made of that carries that information?

If you write a word on a blackboard, and write the word on paper, it's the same word isn't it? Or is it?

The question I am thinking of is....let’s say that you are on your death bed...as you die, you are uploaded and downloaded into a robot body....as the robot comes “online” would you realize your transference? If there is a soul, then would the soul jump from the body to the robot? Or are we just a biological program ourselves and nothing more? It would be a curious thing to see.

 

[this is only temporary]

Check this out: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-artifical-arms-could-connect-nervous-system

It's what you were talking about, only kind of sort of already actually happening!

 

[muir]

Not deliberately misled by a person, mistaken or with an incomplete understanding of how things work. A simple example is how people tried for years to explain the universe based on an assumption that Earth was at the center of it, and until they corrected this incomplete understanding, they tried to explain things in ways that turned out to be red herrings. They were "misled", but not as part of a deliberate plot. By simple ignorance.

(Unless you count being excommunicated and persecuted by the Catholic church, but I don't even want to go there.)

Why not go there?

Its part of the human story....its all part of the wider picture

You should go there!

 

[muir]

[video=youtube;uVrKkctTQKk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVrKkctTQKk[/video]

 

[this is only temporary]

Why not go there?

Its part of the human story....its all part of the wider picture

You should go there!

By "I don't want to go there" I meant that I'm already familiar with the topic and have read about it, but do not want to engage in lengthy discussions with strangers on the internet about it, or get in discussions with my elderly paranoid schizophrenic relatives about whether or not The DaVinci Code is fact or fiction. Or look at YouTube videos about it. But thanks anyway, I'm sure you won't hesitate to go there early and often!

 

[muir]

The question I am thinking of is....let’s say that you are on your death bed...as you die, you are uploaded and downloaded into a robot body....as the robot comes “online” would you realize your transference? If there is a soul, then would the soul jump from the body to the robot? Or are we just a biological program ourselves and nothing more? It would be a curious thing to see.

The concern is that if humanity is transcribed into technology will our innate humanity be lost?

When you look at the people who are funding the artificial intelligence research and the robotics research for example DAARPA they are the usual suspects implicated in all the usual global crimes. If any set of people could be said to be preserving the psychopathic gene as custodians of the grail it is these people

So if a psychopath feels no guilt or remorse isn;t he/she a little like a machine?

Drones are one of the other things these guys are pushing out there as well as wireless connectivity.

So if these guiltless people are already lacking in the essence of humanity then what have they to lose by transcribing themselves into computers and taking on the bodies of machines? Indeed this would overcome the limitations of the huma body regarding space travel allowing them to forge out across the galaxy

A horde of psychopathic machines galavanting across the universe claiming they are 'humanity' when in fact they have already iradicated humanity and left them behind on a scorched planet

I don't think they would even miss the warm contact of human skin against human skin

If humans are to be merged with machines...the question is how to preserve our essential humanity

 

[muir]

By "I don't want to go there" I meant that I'm already familiar with the topic and have read about it, but do not want to engage in lengthy discussions with strangers on the internet about it, or get in discussions with my elderly paranoid schizophrenic relatives about whether or not The DaVinci Code is fact or fiction. Or look at YouTube videos about it. But thanks anyway, I'm sure you won't hesitate to go there early and often!

You leave it buried in the collective psyche to fester then.....you're right i will be pouring light on it

 

[this is only temporary]

Fine, Muir, whatever you want, but it would be awfully nice if you could pick your own special light-pouring thread or something instead of making every last post you read part of your crusade to enlighten us all, it makes it difficult to actually have a conversation about anything other than what you want to talk about.

 

[muir]

Fine, Muir, whatever you want, but it would be awfully nice if you could pick your own special light-pouring thread or something instead of making every last post you read part of your crusade to enlighten us all, it makes it difficult to actually have a conversation about anything other than what you want to talk about.

Lol

So why were you sharing information in this thread if not to help enlighten others? (some of which i agreed with and gave you a thumbs up for)

The way i see it is it is all a giant jigsaw puzzle and we are all sharing our pieces....but if you stick some of the pieces away in a dark corner because you don't like what they have on them then you are not helping to build the puzzle...in fact you will distort the final picture and that is not going to be healthy for anyone

 

[this is only temporary]

Well, the article about linking nerve cells to artificial limbs was pertinent to the discussion of putting consciousness into machinery. Claiming it is part of a plot to develop guiltless psychopathic machines by "the usual suspects implicated in all the usual global crimes*" was --- I don't even know what that was? Your attempt to enlighten us, I suppose.

(*The Rothschilds/Jews/Satanists/Rappers/Corporations/etc.)

 

[muir]

Well, the article about linking nerve cells to artificial limbs was pertinent to the discussion of putting consciousness into machinery. Claiming it is part of a plot to develop guiltless psychopathic machines by "the usual suspects implicated in all the usual global crimes*" was --- I don't even know what that was? Your attempt to enlighten us, I suppose.

(*The Rothschilds/Jews/Satanists/Rappers/Corporations/etc.)

Instead of each of us accusing each other of trying to enlighten people or not enlighten people or whatever we are doing how about we just get on with it?

Have you seen the stuff online about the DAARPA robots? The first time i saw those clips i was blown away. I remember seeing clips years ago of japanese robots that could barely walk and then suddenly pow it turns out that a research group called DAARPA which recieves funding from the military industrial complex has developed very advanced robots

I'm sorry if i sound a bit alarmed.....i'm not afraid of change but i'm sure we'll all agree that things seem to be moving pretty fast here

We also know that they are working on artificial intelligence and that they are also trying to map the human brain with a view to transcribing it onto a computer

Further to that there is the internet which has wrapped itself around the world like the synapses of a gaint brain. So just as a fun sci fi speculation cos we're here on the internet shooting the breeze or enlightening each other or whatever....what happens when we (humanity) plug artifical intelligence into the internet?

We also know that military technology is being developed that is controlled by computers (drones) and that more and more things can be controlled by wireless for example your phone and your computer, your car and even a persons pacemaker!

There was a strange story in the news recently about this hacker guy...a young, healthy guy....who died days before he was going to attend a hacker conference where he was going to do a talk on how a persons pacemaker can be hacked into remotely and switched off! This idea he got from an episode of 'homeland' where the vice presidents pace maker is hacked. I beleive their is a prominant politician who has a pacemaker...i forget who...i think it might be cheney

But this guy then dropped dead in his hotel room. Previously he had shown how insulin injection machines could be hacked and made to give a patient a lethal dose and that ATM machines can be hacked like they are in the terminator film

So anyway what i am saying as an exercise in thinking about possibilities is that more and more of our world is run by computer and that leaves us vulnerable not only to cyber attack but to a take over by artifical intelligence

In fact below is article about how the US military is now talking about replacing human operators with computors becuase of the recent whistleblower snowden. Of course computers have no conscience so they will not make a judgement decision. They won't refuse a cruel order or expose criminal behaviour....so there's a nnother problem with the computerisation of our world

Here's the article:

http://rt.com/usa/nsa-snowden-former-job-future-257/

Here's a video of daarpa robots. Many people in protest movements are concerned that such robots could be used against the population by the government:

[video=youtube;JZDhFXoiHzQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZDhFXoiHzQ[/video]

The clip also touches on transhumanism or the aim of merging humans with machines

 

[Eventhorizon]

@ Dragaon - I like you comment about how spiritualists have gotten hold of quantum mechanics and are using it to support their ideas on energy.

Maybe some people are saying, "This is the way it is" when it comes to energy and spirituality but thats just people talking.

Here are the facts. We ARE energy based. It IS what we are 100% made of. Saying more than that though becomes speculation. Do you deny this? People want to turn it into a religion and its interesting to watch its birth.