Why do INFJs and INTPs hate each other so much?
- Thread starter bluevideogame
- Start date
¤~¤ I think Felidire mentions an issue that does produce a lot of annoyance both ways.
¤ In such situations, it can be the INFJ being kind of an ostrich and leaping too unsubsiantatedly far ni-wise and not account for it in the way it words itself, or it can be the INTP who does not grasp the bigger picture or intent of the INFJs uttering.
~¤ INFJ banging head into sadness and despair:
¤ For example ignoring wording that implies that the INFJ is aware of where the ni-jumps are and/or what might be "maybe" factors that could mean reality-incongruence of the idea... or simply getting lost in tangential ti-wankery(tm) over an isolated part of the text or uttering in a way that either has no bearing on the larger issue or which the INFJ didn't even think it needed to explain because it personally could derive it from the rest with relative ease.
Or... misunderstandings on the part of the INTP because the INTP is very incapable of seeing the actual whole view of another person rather than the logical structure they think they read in the post.
¤ All in all I think the most common errors INTPs make when communicating with INFJs is allowed to occur due to two common deficiencies.
~ The tendency to have their interpretation of what they hear and read detached from seeing the view from inside the other person, a capacity in which they usually are heavily lacking.
~ The related tendency to grab a hold of things they can interpret to be logical inconsistencies without having properly understood the whole idea/perspective, an understanding which would have made them interpret it in a different manner so that it would not look logically inconsistent anymore.
¤ Ways to partially compensate: Talk to INTPs as if they will willfully misinterpret or assume ignorance, stupidity and a lack of awareness of the weaker foundations of your espoused ideas. It's no panacea in the face of the subset of INTPs whose combined unintuitiveness, lack of metacognitive abilities, lack of general intelligence and biasedness is rather high.
Tangent: Interestingly, I see some parallells in how some N-doms experience talking with aux Ns to how aux Ns describe talking with sensors, albeit to a lesser degree. If one reads this and does not comprehend what is referred to, it is probably because one is a stinky non-N-dom.
~¤ INTP figuratively literally dying of frustration:
¤ Ni-jumps are OK and absolutely necessary in anything describing reality, as one has to assess probabilities for making conclusions. Many INFJs have relatively poor awareness of when their Ni-jumps are reasonable in themselves or as a Ni-jump based on a Ni-jump and can tend to be unapologetic or arrogant/certain about things they have no basis to be certain about, collapsing a lot of maybe's into a lot of it must quite definitely be so for the purpose of the next ni-jump that is based on the previous ni-jump until eventually, their idea has the structural integrity of the twin towers after 911 without them even being aware of it.
¤ Multiplying probability 0.95 x 0.98 x 0.8 x 0.96 where number 3 is only as high as 0.8 because of a conclusion one made based on number two which again was based on numbers -5, number -3 and number -7 and then some axioms one has never mentioned and doesn't consciously think about but finds self-evident and viola you have an annoying INFJ who doesn't know how incredibly shaky the structure of the idea it espouses is, yet talks as if it is the divine oracle of truth. The process of through inquiry untangling the mess the INFJ presented to figure out why the INFJ is so sure about what one cannot see why one would be sure of (in this case because the INFJ shouldn't be sure of it) becomes an exercise is tremendous patience and supressed frustration lest one gives in to the frustration and calls bullshit or demands a more rigorous presentation.
¤ INFJs prone to this usually have a higher concern (however conscious or not) for the aesthetics of their ideas and how believing in them makes them feel than the strength of their structure. They are so scared of having to perceptually adjust to a potential reality that isn't like the idea they are somewhat comfortable with that they supress internal critical analysis. So afraid of how the world might look if they are wrong that they don't even want to face their fear of being wrong. At worst, they end up being like ferocious dogs that bite erratically against something that threatens their little world, seeing hostility in attempts to illuminate parts of it that might not stand up to close scrutiny.
¤ In such situations, it can be the INFJ being kind of an ostrich and leaping too unsubsiantatedly far ni-wise and not account for it in the way it words itself, or it can be the INTP who does not grasp the bigger picture or intent of the INFJs uttering.
~¤ INFJ banging head into sadness and despair:
¤ For example ignoring wording that implies that the INFJ is aware of where the ni-jumps are and/or what might be "maybe" factors that could mean reality-incongruence of the idea... or simply getting lost in tangential ti-wankery(tm) over an isolated part of the text or uttering in a way that either has no bearing on the larger issue or which the INFJ didn't even think it needed to explain because it personally could derive it from the rest with relative ease.
Or... misunderstandings on the part of the INTP because the INTP is very incapable of seeing the actual whole view of another person rather than the logical structure they think they read in the post.
¤ All in all I think the most common errors INTPs make when communicating with INFJs is allowed to occur due to two common deficiencies.
~ The tendency to have their interpretation of what they hear and read detached from seeing the view from inside the other person, a capacity in which they usually are heavily lacking.
~ The related tendency to grab a hold of things they can interpret to be logical inconsistencies without having properly understood the whole idea/perspective, an understanding which would have made them interpret it in a different manner so that it would not look logically inconsistent anymore.
¤ Ways to partially compensate: Talk to INTPs as if they will willfully misinterpret or assume ignorance, stupidity and a lack of awareness of the weaker foundations of your espoused ideas. It's no panacea in the face of the subset of INTPs whose combined unintuitiveness, lack of metacognitive abilities, lack of general intelligence and biasedness is rather high.
Tangent: Interestingly, I see some parallells in how some N-doms experience talking with aux Ns to how aux Ns describe talking with sensors, albeit to a lesser degree. If one reads this and does not comprehend what is referred to, it is probably because one is a stinky non-N-dom.
~¤ INTP figuratively literally dying of frustration:
¤ Ni-jumps are OK and absolutely necessary in anything describing reality, as one has to assess probabilities for making conclusions. Many INFJs have relatively poor awareness of when their Ni-jumps are reasonable in themselves or as a Ni-jump based on a Ni-jump and can tend to be unapologetic or arrogant/certain about things they have no basis to be certain about, collapsing a lot of maybe's into a lot of it must quite definitely be so for the purpose of the next ni-jump that is based on the previous ni-jump until eventually, their idea has the structural integrity of the twin towers after 911 without them even being aware of it.
¤ Multiplying probability 0.95 x 0.98 x 0.8 x 0.96 where number 3 is only as high as 0.8 because of a conclusion one made based on number two which again was based on numbers -5, number -3 and number -7 and then some axioms one has never mentioned and doesn't consciously think about but finds self-evident and viola you have an annoying INFJ who doesn't know how incredibly shaky the structure of the idea it espouses is, yet talks as if it is the divine oracle of truth. The process of through inquiry untangling the mess the INFJ presented to figure out why the INFJ is so sure about what one cannot see why one would be sure of (in this case because the INFJ shouldn't be sure of it) becomes an exercise is tremendous patience and supressed frustration lest one gives in to the frustration and calls bullshit or demands a more rigorous presentation.
¤ INFJs prone to this usually have a higher concern (however conscious or not) for the aesthetics of their ideas and how believing in them makes them feel than the strength of their structure. They are so scared of having to perceptually adjust to a potential reality that isn't like the idea they are somewhat comfortable with that they supress internal critical analysis. So afraid of how the world might look if they are wrong that they don't even want to face their fear of being wrong. At worst, they end up being like ferocious dogs that bite erratically against something that threatens their little world, seeing hostility in attempts to illuminate parts of it that might not stand up to close scrutiny.
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For me its a matter of understanding and accepting.. If we get annoyed with people from other types... it just means that we don't accept others for who they are... And if they find you annoying, likewise.
One of my close friend is an INTP. I've known him for 7 years. Of course it was an uphill and downhill relationship. But finally when both of us came to a deep understanding of each other, we became so close. So close that both of us can literally communicate with each other telepathically. Just by looking at the eyes.
Of course, both of us are male. And sometimes my other friends find it weird.
Just an example that no matter what typology he or she has, getting along with somebody is something trivial. Not getting along with somebody just because he has a certain typology is just being closed minded. Mixing and getting along with others far different from you strengthens you in ways that money itself couldn't do...
Just a thought
One of my close friend is an INTP. I've known him for 7 years. Of course it was an uphill and downhill relationship. But finally when both of us came to a deep understanding of each other, we became so close. So close that both of us can literally communicate with each other telepathically. Just by looking at the eyes.
Of course, both of us are male. And sometimes my other friends find it weird.
Just an example that no matter what typology he or she has, getting along with somebody is something trivial. Not getting along with somebody just because he has a certain typology is just being closed minded. Mixing and getting along with others far different from you strengthens you in ways that money itself couldn't do...
Just a thought
Latte, stop picking on the locals. I doubt they enjoy our (e)intp twisted sense of humor anyways.
Holy shit stop bumping this shitty thread please.
INFJs Rule #7384860603982974972
Crappy Threads must not die until they have at met one or more of the following criteria
1. It is at least 4 pages long
2. A post is reported
3. Someone uses the word "butthurt" or something similar
4. A mod posts a little box telling everyone to "yo chill out" or somesuch
5. Someone has said the equivalent of "can't we all just get along"
6. Someone gets angry and decides to leave the forum
7. o_q has said something sarcastic and not really on topic and generally insulting
8. A "hug" smiley has been used
9. Someone posts a long rambling post completely off topic, it may or may not contain the word cabal
10. Someone posts an ironic or amusing meme
Conversely, if one or more of these things has happened, it also guarantees the thread will never die.
Now please bump the "would you kill a puppy for a million dollars" thread
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B-But I'm not actually NTP!
But don't tell that to anyone. Not that I specifically claimed I am that, there. But. Uhm. Yes. I don't want to wear a big shiny non-INTP badge so that I possibly may quite likely maybe be unconsciously perceptually discriminated against.
Like a jew with a yellow star during the holocaust.
Like a non-dom-N in the impending social holocaust in the MBTIsphere to come where the dom-Ns march in to postmodernistically emulate their oppressors and themselves and ducks and marinade you all in who knows what exactly is the meaning of this????
I'm a vegetarian.
According to OK Cupid INFJ is my best match, so I'm hoping it's more like this thread:
http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/7415-infj-intp-relationship.html
I actually registered for this forum 'cause I heard that INFJs are really awesome people for us INTPs
http://personalitycafe.com/infj-forum-protectors/7415-infj-intp-relationship.html
I actually registered for this forum 'cause I heard that INFJs are really awesome people for us INTPs
I don't think it can be a broad general statement to say all INTPs and INFJs don't get along because.. Well.. My boyfriend of 5.5 years is an INTP and we're a very smart match.
Perhaps you just don't like their inability to express feelings or their failures at time management? Those are often our topics of argument but all forgivable..
Perhaps you just don't like their inability to express feelings or their failures at time management? Those are often our topics of argument but all forgivable..
In the cases of 'INFJ and INTP not getting along', I think both types in general ...tend to do similar things but often leads to a different place.
Ti : (dissect, pick apart, find logical inconsistency)
Fe : both types tend to analyze people to a certain degree.
Ni : With an INFJ, the more they know, the less they are so sure, they less they are 'MY PERSPECTIVE IS THE RIGHTEST AND TRUEST ONE AND YOU WERE JUST STUPID BRITCHES'.
Si : Which is often the goal of INTPs-- finding the truest truth.
Ti : (dissect, pick apart, find logical inconsistency)
Fe : both types tend to analyze people to a certain degree.
Ni : With an INFJ, the more they know, the less they are so sure, they less they are 'MY PERSPECTIVE IS THE RIGHTEST AND TRUEST ONE AND YOU WERE JUST STUPID BRITCHES'.
Si : Which is often the goal of INTPs-- finding the truest truth.
cant help myself.....here goes
Over all these types get along in an awesome way. But there can be tension, First and foremost...these 2 types are going KNOW each other in very unspoken way, perhaps its the Ni Ne thing idk buts its going to happen, and it will probably shock both types in a way. These 2 are very much mirrors of eachother.
INFJ cold outside vs warm and fluffy center. INTP warm charming outside vs Ice cold inner.
My take is that these 2 types will hate eachother for the same reason that they will love eachother:
INTP seeks truth:......but has no truth in them! they cannot possibly commit to a truth cause out of the endless possible truths the right one is in there but they are too blind by there love of what ifs to ever see it. INTPs claim to speak truth but all they really have is half of a truth...they use there logic in rationalization which in the end is simply self justified lie. Note they are not lying to you! Its far worse than that. THEY LIE TO THEMSELVES! and than they believe it to be a "truth" ....In contrast INFJ will lie to people in superficial way to save there feelings and create harmony (like letting an INTP win a debate) But INFJs never lie to themselves. Ever. Thus INTP will love that INFJs have the Truth, that they seek the truth they are blind to see. IN this same regard they will hate them for that. INTPs have crappy esteem issues, they are genius level brains with the emotions of a 3 yr old. hiding behind walls to protect that fearful little kid and those scary emotions. The hate the INFJ cause the infj does not have these problems,and knows what the truth always is. INTP will probe and try to find out how the INFJ knows this and the INFJ doesnt really know how they just know. Ni.
INFJ is basically concerned for what is RIGHT and JUST: problem is that this will based mainly on there own standards and morals with little regard for anything else. We want justice at all costs, for all. If this means we burn with all the sinners....SO BE IT! INFJs are never cowards when it comes to justice INFJs are fearless. problem is we get clouded about what is really "RIGHT and JUST" our Fe takes over far too much. We trust NO ONE, and whatever the wrong is whom ever has sinned against us or humanity we are heartless at any forgiveness (infj door slam anyone?) We will see things our way, once that J kicks in ...forget it. its game over for all involved. Now the INTP with its ability to see every and all angles and the ability to not deal with emotions AT ALL.....will give them the better since of what is right and just. where the infj is simply too blind to the justice due to his idealization of how things "should be" INFJs will judge others and the world based on what they would do and the morals they would act. But the INTP knows that not all people are this way the INTP knows just how rare the INFj is. They know that perhaps the INFj is right and things should be "this way" but they know the world is not that way and it is not right to burn the world for the fact that normal people have sinned ....and there sin is basically NOT being INFJ like. LOL Thus the INTP is closer too or simply is right/just. Thus the INFJ will love that about them they will love that ability and ......hate them for it too. They will hate that cant see it and wish to see it. They will probe to get it and they will ...."understand" but still get angry about in-justice. and never let it go.
INTP will also see INFJ as too emotional
INFJ will see INTP is Damn Selfish.
they are both right .
Over all these types get along in an awesome way. But there can be tension, First and foremost...these 2 types are going KNOW each other in very unspoken way, perhaps its the Ni Ne thing idk buts its going to happen, and it will probably shock both types in a way. These 2 are very much mirrors of eachother.
INFJ cold outside vs warm and fluffy center. INTP warm charming outside vs Ice cold inner.
My take is that these 2 types will hate eachother for the same reason that they will love eachother:
INTP seeks truth:......but has no truth in them! they cannot possibly commit to a truth cause out of the endless possible truths the right one is in there but they are too blind by there love of what ifs to ever see it. INTPs claim to speak truth but all they really have is half of a truth...they use there logic in rationalization which in the end is simply self justified lie. Note they are not lying to you! Its far worse than that. THEY LIE TO THEMSELVES! and than they believe it to be a "truth" ....In contrast INFJ will lie to people in superficial way to save there feelings and create harmony (like letting an INTP win a debate) But INFJs never lie to themselves. Ever. Thus INTP will love that INFJs have the Truth, that they seek the truth they are blind to see. IN this same regard they will hate them for that. INTPs have crappy esteem issues, they are genius level brains with the emotions of a 3 yr old. hiding behind walls to protect that fearful little kid and those scary emotions. The hate the INFJ cause the infj does not have these problems,and knows what the truth always is. INTP will probe and try to find out how the INFJ knows this and the INFJ doesnt really know how they just know. Ni.
INFJ is basically concerned for what is RIGHT and JUST: problem is that this will based mainly on there own standards and morals with little regard for anything else. We want justice at all costs, for all. If this means we burn with all the sinners....SO BE IT! INFJs are never cowards when it comes to justice INFJs are fearless. problem is we get clouded about what is really "RIGHT and JUST" our Fe takes over far too much. We trust NO ONE, and whatever the wrong is whom ever has sinned against us or humanity we are heartless at any forgiveness (infj door slam anyone?) We will see things our way, once that J kicks in ...forget it. its game over for all involved. Now the INTP with its ability to see every and all angles and the ability to not deal with emotions AT ALL.....will give them the better since of what is right and just. where the infj is simply too blind to the justice due to his idealization of how things "should be" INFJs will judge others and the world based on what they would do and the morals they would act. But the INTP knows that not all people are this way the INTP knows just how rare the INFj is. They know that perhaps the INFj is right and things should be "this way" but they know the world is not that way and it is not right to burn the world for the fact that normal people have sinned ....and there sin is basically NOT being INFJ like. LOL Thus the INTP is closer too or simply is right/just. Thus the INFJ will love that about them they will love that ability and ......hate them for it too. They will hate that cant see it and wish to see it. They will probe to get it and they will ...."understand" but still get angry about in-justice. and never let it go.
INTP will also see INFJ as too emotional
INFJ will see INTP is Damn Selfish.
they are both right .
Don't mind me. I'm just here to see you INFJs get what's coming to you.
- Dec 29, 2009
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@bluevideogame I have to ask, why the hostility to infj's ? Did one step on your toe or something lol ? Here all I can see is you trying to provoke an argument to 'back up your theory'. I know intp's I get on well with, and others less so. Here's the thing not all infj's are identical. I can guess intp's aren't either? On the making an argument point, I think you might find plenty of infj's are very capable of putting a rational argument together, we don't have to let our emotions dominate .
Maybe you could think through your ideas and theories a little more deeply, and ask yourself why you are on an infj forum. I don't think you are likely to get banned either, this is a very tolerant forum. It's more likely a lot of infj's will read your theories, smile and feel sorry for you. Good luck with what ever it is that is actually bothering you.
Maybe you could think through your ideas and theories a little more deeply, and ask yourself why you are on an infj forum. I don't think you are likely to get banned either, this is a very tolerant forum. It's more likely a lot of infj's will read your theories, smile and feel sorry for you. Good luck with what ever it is that is actually bothering you.
Thank you for bringing this thread to my attention. You just don't want to talk about INTPs. This is the kind of racism I'm talking about. Trying to bury your sins and suppress the awareness of INTP hatred.
I'm just trying to have some fun. Why won't you ever let me have any fun?
Have you ever thought just maybe-ee-ee you belong with me-ee-ee?
This is beautiful. I can see the end of our 400 year conflict between INFJs and INTPs. Seeing as this would be progressive... wait a minute. YOU JUST WANT TO OWN ME AS IF I WERE YOUR PROPERTY!
You just set us back 50 years.