When did Jesus become God?

[EFabricio]

One of the oldest theological debates...
Is Jesus really God? Is the Son equal to the Father?... If so, who resurrected Jesus? Himself?... If he resurrected himself... was he actually dead?
Who did Jesus pray to?... Who answered him from heaven?...

People have actually killed and died over this matter, showing no Christian love whatsoever. So before you answer I'd like you to keep in mind these to verses:

1 Peter 3: 15: "Sanctify to Christ in your heart always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect."

James 1: 19: "Know this, my beloved brothers: Everyone must be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger."

 

[SovereignGrace]

One of the oldest theological debates...
Is Jesus really God? Is the Son equal to the Father?... If so, who resurrected Jesus? Himself?... If he resurrected himself... was he actually dead?
Who did Jesus pray to?... Who answered him from heaven?...

People have actually killed and died over this matter, showing no Christian love whatsoever. So before you answer I'd like you to keep in mind these to verses:

1 Peter 3: 15: "Sanctify to Christ in your heart always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect."

James 1: 19: "Know this, my beloved brothers: Everyone must be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger."

Christ is God, and always was God.

He was the Son of God from all eternity.

There are numerous Scriptures that declare this fact, and John 1 is very clear about it.

John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 He was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.

11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory,

the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

And yes, he was really dead, or can not have been resurrected.

And he prayed to his Father in heaven.

It says so numerous times in the Scriptures.

 

[EFabricio]

Christ is God, and always was God.

He was the Son of God from all eternity...
.

Hey! Thank you for replying!

Whatever I say, I don't mean to offend you... And even less so God, ok?

In the verses you quoted from John 1, It says that the word was in the beginning WITH God, and that he was God. How is that possible? How can you BE WITH someone and BE that someone at the same time? Don't you think it is a little beyond logic?

There is an alternative translation for John 1: 1. Other translations render this part of the verse:

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.
1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J.*M.*P.*Smith and E.*J.*Goodspeed.
1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.
1950: “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L.*Tomanek.
1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.
1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider

If you translate that Jesus, "The Word", was divine and that he was WITH the Father, a different being... Then it would make more sense wouldn't you agree?

There is one more thing in John 1 that makes me believe that the Son and the Father are two different beings. Verse 14 as you quoted says: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory". But verse 18 says: "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (ASV). Notice that everyone saw Jesus, but no one has ever seen God... So, how could Jesus have been God then?

One more thing, if (as many believe) the Son is God, and the Father is God... When the Son died, then the Father must have been dead as well, right? Because they are the same being. Therefore, if God was dead, who resurrected God?

And if we apply the same logic to Jesus' prayers, who listened to him? If the Son is God and the Father is God, does that mean that God prayed to God? Was that like he was talking to himself? Reflecting maybe?

I will read the Bible texts that you may quote thoroughly and try to understand your point of view.

 

[Rcs6r]

Jesus was God's avatar on Earth sent to distract us so his seraphic military forces could steal our Unobtanium.

 

[the]

Jesus was God's avatar on Earth sent to distract us so his seraphic military forces could steal our Unobtanium.

False flag!!! Why didnt you warn us [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]???

 

[Rcs6r]

I ain't messin' around.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hey! Thank you for replying!

Whatever I say, I don't mean to offend you... And even less so God, ok?

In the verses you quoted from John 1, It says that the word was in the beginning WITH God, and that he was God. How is that possible? How can you BE WITH someone and BE that someone at the same time? Don't you think it is a little beyond logic?

There is an alternative translation for John 1: 1. Other translations render this part of the verse:

1808: “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.
1864: “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
1928: “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
1935: “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J.*M.*P.*Smith and E.*J.*Goodspeed.
1946: “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.
1950: “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
1958: “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L.*Tomanek.
1975: “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.
1978: “and godlike kind was the Logos.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider

If you translate that Jesus, "The Word", was divine and that he was WITH the Father, a different being... Then it would make more sense wouldn't you agree?

There is one more thing in John 1 that makes me believe that the Son and the Father are two different beings. Verse 14 as you quoted says: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory". But verse 18 says: "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him" (ASV). Notice that everyone saw Jesus, but no one has ever seen God... So, how could Jesus have been God then?

One more thing, if (as many believe) the Son is God, and the Father is God... When the Son died, then the Father must have been dead as well, right? Because they are the same being. Therefore, if God was dead, who resurrected God?

And if we apply the same logic to Jesus' prayers, who listened to him? If the Son is God and the Father is God, does that mean that God prayed to God? Was that like he was talking to himself? Reflecting maybe?

I will read the Bible texts that you may quote thoroughly and try to understand your point of view.

God is three distinct persons in one: The Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

They are all God, and they are all of one mind. But they are distinct persons, and have different "roles" (if I can use that expression.)

The Father is the invisible God. No one sees him except as he is revealed in Christ, who is the perfect image of the Father. He loves the Son, and gives the Son the authority to rule over all things.

Christ The Son, though equal to God, submitted to the Father as his Righteous Servant, being made flesh, and coming to the world to save sinners, through his perfect life, atoning death, resurrection, and ascension to glory. And seated on his throne, in glory, Christ rules over all things, and will one day judge the whole world.

And the Holy Spirit gives spiritual life and faith to the chosen sinner, giving him a new heart and a new spirit that loves God, and applying the atonement to the conscience, giving him rest and trust in the Savior, and the knowledge that God now accepts him in Christ.


At some point, I may come back and add Scripture quotes. But it would take a lot of time, so we'll see.

 

[Kanamori]

Jesus was God's avatar on Earth sent to distract us so his seraphic military forces could steal our Unobtanium.

And I got your mom's 'unobtanium' last night!

 

[Rcs6r]

And I got your mom's 'unobtanium' last night!

[video=youtube;FDCX8d6iMcA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDCX8d6iMcA[/video]

 

[EFabricio]

God is three distinct persons in one: The Father, the Son, and the Spirit.

They are all God, and they are all of one mind. But they are distinct persons, and have different "roles" (if I can use that expression.)

The Father is the invisible God. No one sees him except as he is revealed in Christ, who is the perfect image of the Father. He loves the Son, and gives the Son the authority to rule over all things.

Christ The Son, though equal to God, submitted to the Father as his Righteous Servant, being made flesh, and coming to the world to save sinners, through his perfect life, atoning death, resurrection, and ascension to glory. And seated on his throne, in glory, Christ rules over all things, and will one day judge the whole world.

And the Holy Spirit gives spiritual life and faith to the chosen sinner, giving him a new heart and a new spirit that loves God, and applying the atonement to the conscience, giving him rest and trust in the Savior, and the knowledge that God now accepts him in Christ.


At some point, I may come back and add Scripture quotes. But it would take a lot of time, so we'll see.

How can a person be three persons? And why do you even need such a relationship to describe God?

I will quote a couple of Bible texts that show that that belief is quite hard to grasp:

Matthew 3: 16, 17: "After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”"

In this verse you see that Jesus was on Earth, being baptized by John (everyone saw him, John 1: 14)... The holy spirit was descending from heaven, and God spoke from heaven but no one saw him (John 1: 18). How could he be in three places at the same time? And what was the point of doing that? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense if Jesus was annointed and approved by a different person, someone superior to himself?

Acts 7: 55, 56: "But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man+ standing at God’s right hand.”". Notice that in this vision, Stephen saw Jesus and his Father, he saw two... He didn't see three, he didn't see one, he saw two... If God used a persona when on Earth as the Son and a different persona when in Heaven, why did Stephen see two different beings in heaven?

One more thing, the Bible teaches that the Father can't die. Habakkuk 1: 12: "Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die..." If the Son is equal to the Father, why can't the Father die but the Son did die?... How could the Son die and the Father be alive? Aren't they the same being? How can you be dead and alive at the same time?

I look forward to reading the Biblical support to your claims, remember that Jesus and his disciples quoted the Scriptures when teaching.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

It is not so much a matter of when Jesus became God, but when God became man. At the incarnation, at, or shortly after the annunciation, when the archangel Gabriel greeted the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Of course, it is not that God became man by being changed, but rather, at the incarnation the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity assumed a human nature.

 

[SovereignGrace]

How can a person be three persons? And why do you even need such a relationship to describe God?

I will quote a couple of Bible texts that show that that belief is quite hard to grasp:

Matthew 3: 16, 17: "After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”"

In this verse you see that Jesus was on Earth, being baptized by John (everyone saw him, John 1: 14)... The holy spirit was descending from heaven, and God spoke from heaven but no one saw him (John 1: 18). How could he be in three places at the same time? And what was the point of doing that? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense if Jesus was annointed and approved by a different person, someone superior to himself?

Acts 7: 55, 56: "But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, and he said: “Look! I see the heavens opened up and the Son of man+ standing at God’s right hand.”". Notice that in this vision, Stephen saw Jesus and his Father, he saw two... He didn't see three, he didn't see one, he saw two... If God used a persona when on Earth as the Son and a different persona when in Heaven, why did Stephen see two different beings in heaven?

One more thing, the Bible teaches that the Father can't die. Habakkuk 1: 12: "Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die..." If the Son is equal to the Father, why can't the Father die but the Son did die?... How could the Son die and the Father be alive? Aren't they the same being? How can you be dead and alive at the same time?

I look forward to reading the Biblical support to your claims, remember that Jesus and his disciples quoted the Scriptures when teaching.

While I appreciate the respectful tone of your request, I'm going to have to respectfully decline.

I do not think it would be a valuable use of my time to labor the point that God is three distinct persons in one.

If you don't believe that, it's not my responsibility to prove it to you.

There are much bigger issues at stake--like the fact that Christ is the only Savior of sinners, and without Christ you are destined for Hell.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

While I appreciate the respectful tone of your request, I'm going to have to respectfully decline.

I do not think it would be a valuable use of my time to labor the point that God is three distinct persons in one.

If you don't believe that, it's not my responsibility to prove it to you.

There are much bigger issues at stake--like the fact that Christ is the only Savior of sinners, and without Christ you are destined for Hell.

The dogma of the Blessed Trinity is derived from the identification of three divine persons throughout the entire New Testament: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The unity of these three persons is also indicated in various passages.

However, that these three persons are one God is something which has always been of the Christian faith. It took opposing opinions for the Church to begin to say that such opinions did not agree with the faith. This came to a head starting with the Council of Nicea, but debates against this position waged on, especially about the divinity of the Holy Spirit, until the first Council of Constantinople.

Much doctrine clarified how these three divine persons can be one God. Basically, it boils down to there being only one God, but within God there are three persons. It is clear from this that when we speak of persons in God, they are different to how we conceive of human persons, distinct and separate. The Athanasian Creed makes the point at length:

Athanasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled; without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood. Who although he is God and Man; yet he is not two, but one Christ. One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God. One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living[SUP][16][/SUP] and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies; And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved.

 

[Barnabas]

One of the oldest theological debates...
Is Jesus really God? Is the Son equal to the Father?... If so, who resurrected Jesus? Himself?... If he resurrected himself... was he actually dead?
Who did Jesus pray to?... Who answered him from heaven?...

People have actually killed and died over this matter, showing no Christian love whatsoever. So before you answer I'd like you to keep in mind these to verses:

1 Peter 3: 15: "Sanctify to Christ in your heart always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect."

James 1: 19: "Know this, my beloved brothers: Everyone must be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to anger."

In respect to Jesus being God, and as a source outside of the Gospels, In revelation Jesus is described in Revelation in a way that is almost Identical to the way God is described in the book of Daniel.

Revelation 1:9-16 ESV

Vision of the Son of Man

9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet 11 saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.”
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

Daniel 7:9-12 ESV

The Ancient of Days Reigns

9 “As I looked,
thrones were placed,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat;
his clothing was white as snow,
and the hair of his head like pure wool;
his throne was fiery flames;
its wheels were burning fire.
10 A stream of fire issued
and came out from before him;
a thousand thousands served him,
and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him;
the court sat in judgment,
and the books were opened.

11 “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

It would seem odd to apply language that's meant for YHWY, to any one who is simply his servant. It may be easier in some ways to think of Jesus merely another divine being(or the divinest of divine creation) but It doesn't seem to flow with what the text has to say, and yes while there are those that have translated John 1 after that fashion, I can think of no modern translation that would translate that verse that way. Not only that but if you look further into Daniel 7 shortly after the verse I quoted there's another prophecy about Jesus that relays his divinity as one like a son of man.

Also as a short aside, if you hear Jesus refereed to in the gospels as the Son of Man they're not actually referencing his humanity, but Daniel 7-13 and 14.

 

[Lark]

I know it was all in messing but the idea that Jesus was God's avatar is something that I consider makes sense.

In the hindu creeds their pantheon of Gods have and do visit the earth using avatars, I'm not a hindu so I dont know how this operates precisely but its the origin of the terminology so far as I can tell, I know that the movie avatar was interpreted in the sense of and use of avatars online etc. but that's not the original use of the term.

 

[Rcs6r]

As a former Roman Catholic myself, we were taught that God became flesh through incarnation, which makes Jesus both human and God since birth.

So in regards to OP, this is a question that will be answered differently depending on the individual's particular belief; there is no absolute.

 

[Lark]

As a former Roman Catholic myself, we were taught that God became flesh through incarnation, which makes Jesus both human and God since birth.

So in regards to OP, this is a question that will be answered differently depending on the individual's particular belief; there is no absolute.

As a practicing RC that's what I believe but I find some of the more mystical ideas of the athiest Erich Fromm interesting too in his book You Shall Be As Gods or some of the mysticism of Jewish traditions like the 32 righteous men idea which I mentioned in another thread, anonymous individuals who constitute a special sort of spiritual beings whose existence the fate of the entire world hinges upon and from whom a messianic figure may emerge at any given time for given cosmic purposes.

Also some Jungian ideas are interesting too.

Theosophists thinking about Jesus is interesting too, well, as novelised by writers like Dennis Wheatley.