What is Beauty? | Page 7 | INFJ Forum

What is Beauty?

For me, beauty is a perspective. It is also a way of seeing, rather than a judgement. It isn’t intrinsic - I can look at the same ‘event cluster’ from many different angles, and only some of them are beautiful. For example the sunset that fills my soul one moment can be the nightmare that blinds me when I’m driving the next moment. When something seems beautiful it feels ‘right’ as though it is fulfilling its place in being rather than resisting it - but this is not an objective statement, at least by me, because my own perspective and perception is part of this event cluster and is intrinsic to its rightness. That rightness is always accompanied by happiness, joy even. This is true even if there are negative sides to the situation too. I may override those feelings on practical, rational or moral grounds by consciously shifting perspective.

I don’t have an easy definition of what I mean by ‘right’ because it depends on the content of the event cluster, including myself as I am at the time. It’s qualities may include surprise, economy of expression, intense emotional impact, harmony, logical succinctness, sweet disharmony, sweet sadness, self-forgetfulness, sexual interest, exquisite justice, etc, etc. Rightness isn’t a binary thing - there are degrees of rightness. When I experience beauty, there is usually an intense relationship between the configuration of the event cluster and the meaning it conveys to me - again bearing in mind I am part of the cluster, and this is a perspective.

A bit of a ramble around the topic so I’ll stop there, I think.

This is a very interesting take on it, John — and I find that my own approach resembles yours.

A question suggests itself: this inherent perspectivism of beauty which you talk about, do you think it it itself objective, or subjective? Is it possible for one's experience of beauty in relation to things/events/objects not to be perspectivistic?
 
Clearly you don't need us to define this for you when you can just look at and speak to @neko.

You are absolutely right :blush:

To me @neko is beautiful and is beauty itself. She is what inspires me when I think about beauty ♥
 
To me beauty lies in the simplicities of a complex whole.

The most beautiful paintings are usually very simple at first glance but usually have a profound complexity of interpretation. The Fibonacci sequence is one of the most simplistic concepts to grasp but yet it is the simplicity behind so much complexity in nature.

The equations that model some of the most seemingly complex systems are often extremely simple when reduced to the core parts.

It wouldn’t suprise me if the “theory of everything” that holy grail of theoretical physics, when found would probably be reducible to an extremely basic formula/idea. Yet it would be responsible for the complexities in everything we know today. That would also mean that by my definition of beauty, that beauty is a by product of existence and so everything is beautiful in its own way. You just got to know how to interpret the beauty of each thing in its own right.
 
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This is a very interesting take on it, John — and I find that my own approach resembles yours.

A question suggests itself: this inherent perspectivism of beauty which you talk about, do you think it it itself objective, or subjective? Is it possible for one's experience of beauty in relation to things/events/objects not to be perspectivistic?

This probably takes me onto a ground that I'm not able to navigate with agility, but I'll try. In a sense the dichotomy between subjective and objective is spurious in that the association of myself and my inner perception or judgement with the outer event cluster is itself a fact within the field of being (by the way, I'm not using your terminology accurately, but hopefully sufficiently closely that you can bridge the gaps). I'm pretty clear that my experience of beauty associates myself with the outer event cluster in a way that is not only unique to me, but unique to the perspective I bring to the event. This raises some questions though. Let's suppose that I then articulate my response to the externals of this event in a way that others can relate to, and at least some of them then claim to respond to it in a similar way. This is analogous to other inductive processes used to verify objective truth, but there will always some who find it not beautiful, and even I myself may change my articulation depending on my perspective. So we could accept there is a relative objectivity in recognising beauty based on consensus - but clearly it isn't possible to attribute an independent fully objective quality of beauty this way - there are plenty of examples of one nation's epitome of beauty being another nation's archetype of decadence, etc.

But what about the process by which I perceive that something is beautiful? Could that be objective? I think it could. It seems to me that the system of logic could be used to give an analogy - where given a set of starting points accepted as true or false, a set of conclusions follows automatically from the rules, as long as they are applied correctly. Perhaps with beauty there are a firm set of rules that are hard wired into us that determine how we perceive something as beautiful or not: it would be the 'given' starting points that would determine the outcome, and the choice of these starting points is bound up with the perspective we employ. Now I have no idea what these starting points look like, nor what the rules are that process them, because this pretty well happens unconsciously unless we apply formalised rules of aesthetics - but it does appeal to me and is objective, and is consistent with how we relate to the world.

I'm thinking out loud here Ren, so not sure if this makes any sense, but it has a good feel to it.
 
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This probably takes me onto a ground that I'm not able to navigate with agility, but I'll try. In a sense the dichotomy between subjective and objective is spurious in that the association of myself and my inner perception or judgement with the outer event cluster is itself a fact within the field of being (by the way, I'm not using your terminology accurately, but hopefully sufficiently closely that you can bridge the gaps). I'm pretty clear that my experience of beauty associates myself with the outer event cluster in a way that is not only unique to me, but unique to the perspective I bring to the event. This raises some questions though. Let's suppose that I then articulate my response to the externals of this event in a way that others can relate to, and at least some of them then claim to respond to it in a similar way. This is analogous to other inductive processes used to verify objective truth, but there will always some who find it not beautiful, and even I myself may change my articulation depending on my perspective. So we could accept there is a relative objectivity in recognising beauty based on consensus - but clearly it isn't possible to attribute an independent fully objective quality of beauty this way - there are plenty of examples of one nation's epitome of beauty being another nation's archetype of decadence, etc.

But what about the process by which I perceive that something is beautiful? Could that be objective? I think it could. It seems to me that the system of logic could be used to give an analogy - where given a set of starting points accepted as true or false, a set of conclusions follows automatically from the rules, as long as they are applied correctly. Perhaps with beauty there are a firm set of rules that are hard wired into us that determine how we perceive something as beautiful or not: it would be the 'given' starting points that would determine the outcome, and the choice of these starting points is bound up with the perspective we employ. Now I have no idea what these starting points look like, nor what the rules are that process them, because this pretty well happens unconsciously unless we apply formalised rules of aesthetics - but it does appeal to me and is objective, and is consistent with how we relate to the world.

I'm thinking out load here Ren, so not sure if this makes any sense, but it has a good feel to it.

You have a beautiful mind John :smiley:
 
Heraclitus-quote-about-harmony-from-On-Nature-1c6834.jpg

:kissingheart::kissingheart::kissingheart::sunglasses::sunglasses::sunglasses:
 
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There is beauty in everything .. even the ugliest truths or lies. There is a silver lining to it - silver lining that depicts how incredibly human we're, and flawed. But with our flaws come beauty.

Maybe beauty is just a term for 'hope' that has been lost in translation.

When comparing abstracts, 'hope' is, I think, much more tangible than 'beauty' because it more accurately represents the human emotion it evokes. Now, is the concept of beauty entirely captured by hope? Does one concept nest in the other (is beauty a type of hope, or hope a type of beauty?)? Prima facie, I think there's a strong case to be made for hope encapsulating beauty, since I can't think of an example that falls outside this definition. Even the darkest instances of 'beauty' still somehow relate to this.

In fact, I would challenge anyone in this thread to do it.

Thanks for contributing, guys! I like this idea of a link — semantic or otherwise — between beauty and hope. But before we consider whether the concept of hope encapsulates that of beauty, which is a fruitful but controversial idea, shouldn't we define what we mean by hope?

I mean, hope itself is a very slippery term. How would you define it?
 
The paradox of the nature of beauty. Just when you think there is something like objective beauty, it ends up collapsing into its own subjectiveness. I think it is ultimately subjective and is a result of our pattern seeking minds combining with our feelings about those patterns. An alien species may have completely different standards of beauty than humans.

I see where you are going. But let us assume that there are such aliens, and that they do have completely different standards of beauty than humans. Would whatever they experience still be "beauty"? If it is, then it seems to me that humans on the one hand, and aliens on the other, having different standards of beauty presupposes the existence of a unified and objective concept of beauty from the viewpoint of which the different 'local' standards (human, alien, etc.) may be derived.

I think another way to express this idea is the following: when we say that beauty is "subjective", it seems to me that we are not really defining beauty. We are just saying that whatever beauty is, happens to be mediated subjectively. But plausibly, all experiences of beauty, no matter how varied, have something in common. What this thing is is one of the interesting leads here, I think; though the question is by no means easily answered.
 
Here's my Popparian Analysis.

Things are beautiful if they are hard to vary. In his 1979 play Amadeus, Peter Shaffer describes Mozart’s music "Displace one note and there would be diminishment. Displace on phrase and the structure would fall apart" . Vary Mozart’s music, even just a little, and the whole piece falls to pieces. Every note, every phrase has a specific role to perform; each one is tightly integrated into the next. Beethoven is a classical composer that is known for being meticulous with his approach to music composition. “Composers like Ludwig van Beethoven agonized through change after change, apparently seeking something that he knew was there to be created, apparently meeting a standard that could be met only after much creative effort and much failure.” In a fever of inspiration, artist seem to be reaching for something that is there to be found, some objective standard of beauty. Somewhere in our brain, blind variation and selection of artistic ideas add up to creative thought.

Why are flowers beautiful? In his chapter “Why are Flowers Beautiful?”, Deutsch explains why humans are attracted to flowers. From an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense that bees are attracted to flowers. Flowers provide that life sustaining nectar that the bees need to survive and procreate. Conversely, flowers have a reason to attract bees. They need bees as a vessel to transport pollen. But why should humans be attracted to flowers? We do not depend on them for anything, and they do not depend on us!

The co-evolution of insects and flowers had to involve the creation of a code or language for signalling information between them. The code had to be complex since the genes that created it faced a difficult communication problem, and it had to be both easily recognizable by the right insects and difficult to forge by other species of flower. This is because if other species could cause their pollen to be spread by the same insects without having to produce nectar for them, they would have a selective advantage. In other words, that co-evolution between insects and flowers would never have happened. “So the criterion that was evolving in the insects had to be discriminating enough to pick the right flowers and not crude imitations; and the flowers’ design had to be such that no design that other flower species could easily evolve could be mistaken for it.” (Deutsch, 2011) Both the criterion and the way of meeting it had to be hard to vary.

So why are humans attracted to flowers? We know why bees are, but why us? It may seem plausible to think that flowers are not really objectively beautiful, and that their attractiveness is just a cultural phenomenon. But we find flowers beautiful that we have never seen before, and which have not been known to our culture before for most humans in most cultures. We sing songs, write poems and tell stories about them. "The same is not true of the roots of plants, or the leaves."
(Deutsch, 2011). Well, sometimes a leaf can be beautiful; even the roots can be. But only very rarely! "With flowers it is reliable. It is a regularity in nature." (Deutsch, 2011). A regularity like a law of physics. So what is the explanation? David Deutsch thinks that the reason flowers can reliably signal to bees across their communicationg ap is the same reason that we find flowers beautiful, because there are objective standards of
beauty. Flowers are reaching for an objective standard that is difficult to see, but is nevertheless there! What if this regularity is just a coincidence though? We can see that flowers are considered universally beautiful, but what if the attraction can be explained culturally, or evolutionarily?

Within various domains of art and science, there are extraordinary creators like Beethoven and Einstein who are widely known to have contributed greatly to their respective disciplines. But are the similarities between science and art merely superficial? "Was Beethoven fooling himself when he thought that the sheets in his waste-paper basket contained mistakes: that they were worse than the sheets he would eventually publish?" (Deutsch, 2011). Was he merely meeting some arbitrary cultural standard like buying the right sort of coffee to satisfy the latest lifestyle fad? Or is there substance in saying that Beethoven's music really is far better than pre-schoolers banging wooden
spoons against metal pots? "Is there only 'I know what I like,' or what tradition or authority designates as good? "(Deutsch, 2011). All of these arguments assume that for each standard, there is a culture in which people enjoy and are deeply moved by art that met it. But surely there is more to standards than just this? Surely only exceptional standards, those which great artists have spent
entire lifetimes working on, are chosen to be cultural norms? "Quite generally, cultural relativism (about art or morality) has a very hard time explaining what people are doing when they think they are improving a tradition." (Deutsch, 2011).
 
Beauty is robbed of its energy if we try to define it. It is completely random with so many variotions and levels to define it would be an injustice. Individual interpretation guarantees its elusive strength and in a way that's beautiful.
 
Beauty is robbed of its energy if we try to define it. It is completely random with so many variotions and levels to define it would be an injustice. Individual interpretation guarantees its elusive strength and in a way that's beautiful.

This description of beauty is beautiful
 
Here's my Popparian Analysis.

Things are beautiful if they are hard to vary. In his 1979 play Amadeus, Peter Shaffer describes Mozart’s music "Displace one note and there would be diminishment. Displace on phrase and the structure would fall apart" . Vary Mozart’s music, even just a little, and the whole piece falls to pieces. Every note, every phrase has a specific role to perform; each one is tightly integrated into the next. Beethoven is a classical composer that is known for being meticulous with his approach to music composition. “Composers like Ludwig van Beethoven agonized through change after change, apparently seeking something that he knew was there to be created, apparently meeting a standard that could be met only after much creative effort and much failure.” In a fever of inspiration, artist seem to be reaching for something that is there to be found, some objective standard of beauty. Somewhere in our brain, blind variation and selection of artistic ideas add up to creative thought.

Why are flowers beautiful? In his chapter “Why are Flowers Beautiful?”, Deutsch explains why humans are attracted to flowers. From an evolutionary perspective, it makes sense that bees are attracted to flowers. Flowers provide that life sustaining nectar that the bees need to survive and procreate. Conversely, flowers have a reason to attract bees. They need bees as a vessel to transport pollen. But why should humans be attracted to flowers? We do not depend on them for anything, and they do not depend on us!

The co-evolution of insects and flowers had to involve the creation of a code or language for signalling information between them. The code had to be complex since the genes that created it faced a difficult communication problem, and it had to be both easily recognizable by the right insects and difficult to forge by other species of flower. This is because if other species could cause their pollen to be spread by the same insects without having to produce nectar for them, they would have a selective advantage. In other words, that co-evolution between insects and flowers would never have happened. “So the criterion that was evolving in the insects had to be discriminating enough to pick the right flowers and not crude imitations; and the flowers’ design had to be such that no design that other flower species could easily evolve could be mistaken for it.” (Deutsch, 2011) Both the criterion and the way of meeting it had to be hard to vary.

So why are humans attracted to flowers? We know why bees are, but why us? It may seem plausible to think that flowers are not really objectively beautiful, and that their attractiveness is just a cultural phenomenon. But we find flowers beautiful that we have never seen before, and which have not been known to our culture before for most humans in most cultures. We sing songs, write poems and tell stories about them. "The same is not true of the roots of plants, or the leaves."
(Deutsch, 2011). Well, sometimes a leaf can be beautiful; even the roots can be. But only very rarely! "With flowers it is reliable. It is a regularity in nature." (Deutsch, 2011). A regularity like a law of physics. So what is the explanation? David Deutsch thinks that the reason flowers can reliably signal to bees across their communicationg ap is the same reason that we find flowers beautiful, because there are objective standards of
beauty. Flowers are reaching for an objective standard that is difficult to see, but is nevertheless there! What if this regularity is just a coincidence though? We can see that flowers are considered universally beautiful, but what if the attraction can be explained culturally, or evolutionarily?

Within various domains of art and science, there are extraordinary creators like Beethoven and Einstein who are widely known to have contributed greatly to their respective disciplines. But are the similarities between science and art merely superficial? "Was Beethoven fooling himself when he thought that the sheets in his waste-paper basket contained mistakes: that they were worse than the sheets he would eventually publish?" (Deutsch, 2011). Was he merely meeting some arbitrary cultural standard like buying the right sort of coffee to satisfy the latest lifestyle fad? Or is there substance in saying that Beethoven's music really is far better than pre-schoolers banging wooden
spoons against metal pots? "Is there only 'I know what I like,' or what tradition or authority designates as good? "(Deutsch, 2011). All of these arguments assume that for each standard, there is a culture in which people enjoy and are deeply moved by art that met it. But surely there is more to standards than just this? Surely only exceptional standards, those which great artists have spent
entire lifetimes working on, are chosen to be cultural norms? "Quite generally, cultural relativism (about art or morality) has a very hard time explaining what people are doing when they think they are improving a tradition." (Deutsch, 2011).
I think this explores a very interesting quality of beauty but my feeling is that it reflects a subset. For example I find various aspects of the weather intensely beautiful - cloud patterns that are constantly changing over a complex landscape and filled with an intense sense of hidden presence. Any part could be changed - is constantly being in the sky - and yet it retains the same feeling of great beauty to me. I find beauty in other examples of apparent randomness - the scattering of the stars, the pattern of waves on a shoreline or out at sea, the sound of wind in the trees.
 
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I think this explores a very interesting quality of beauty but my feeling is that it reflects a subset. For example I find various aspects of the weather intensely beautiful - cloud patterns that are constantly changing over a complex landscape and filled with an intense sense of hidden presence. Any part could be changed - is constantly being in the sky - and yet it retains the same feeling of great beauty to me. I find beauty in other examples of apparent randomness - the scattering of the stars, the pattern of waves on a shoreline or out at sea, the sound of wind in the trees.

I would argue that clouds are less objectively beautiful than music created by artists like Beethoven. If they were not, then Beethoven would have been mistaken that he made real errors in his waste paper pile. He would have been wrong that he was making real improvements to his music. Do you see the problem?
 
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