What does it mean to believe in God? | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

What does it mean to believe in God?

May said:
what do you mean by balance though? what is the balance to linear thought?
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Well, I think there is a type if intellect that is logical...one thing leading to another...to me that is linear. No problem, but I'm afraid we can get too subsumed into this mode to the point that unequivical proof is needed for everything. Yes, we live in a scientific, technological age, but that is one modality that employs a certain perspective, point-of-view, or method for understanding truth.

There is another mode of intellect, imo, that is more intuitive, connected to the nuances of this world, and able to jump into the current of things without grasping all the mechanics....or any of the mechanics for that matter. This is good, too. I am considering this a valid form of intelligence, not stupidity.

I would propose that our human capacities can, and in some cases have, becomes historically skewed off-axis. Either mode in excess can lead to a kind of paralysis. If humanity is to succeed in the millenia ahead I think we will have to grow to value both as intrisically human.

May said:
i'm not sure I understand at all what you are talking about. ? please elaborate.
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My first thought related to those who do seek through belief. In many cases they (somehow) do find, or are led to find, or are given insight to find. Sometimes what we find is that the questions we initially posed were way off-base...sometimes we find that we come full circle to rediscover hidden depths within things we only thought we knew previously. From my experience I would say that things are never what we thought they would be going in. They are far more wondrous and far more deep.
The point is that, for those who seek...there is something to find. Somehow we are not left groping in the dark.

The second thought (not sure which needed clarification...likely both) goes like this: our preexisting concepts about God, and judgement, and rules, and rigidity, and definitions have come to us via very primary, childhood presentations designed to impart a basic sense of things on a level that kids can grasp. And it generally works...for kids. Trouble is...we don't stay kids, and we need to grow past the "old man in the beard sitting on his throne on high" idea of God. That step is frequently missing these days. It's not that it's not there...it is...it's just not presented to us because it is not the something the mind of a child (well, most children) can grasp for it's complexity and nuances...it really requires adult levels of awareness.

Sounds kinda spacey....but I've been intentionally at it for 40 years and I have seen and experienced alot. The wonderful irony is that given all the awe and centeredness and connection I have experienced within the realm of belief, I am still a doofus and I know it. It's' the wonderful way of things!!!

Here's a random thought....every been loved by someone so much that as a reflection of that love, you start to love yourself a bit more? That is how belief is...the Divine Love awakens things, possibilities, creativity in us that would not arise in and of ourselves. They come as reflections from the Divine Love. I wonder if human love is a hint at this cosmic principle.

Sorry if I'm talking in riddles again. :)
 
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randomsomeone said:
Well, I think there is a type if intellect that is logical...one thing leading to another...to me that is linear. No problem, but I'm afraid we can get too subsumed into this mode to the point that unequivical proof is needed for everything. Yes, we live in a scientific, technological age, but that is one modality that employs a certain perspective, point-of-view, or method for understanding truth.

There is another mode of intellect, imo, that is more intuitive, connected to the nuances of this world, and able to jump into the current of things without grasping all the mechanics....or any of the mechanics for that matter. This is good, too. I am considering this a valid form of intelligence, not stupidity.

I would propose that our human capacities can, and in some cases have, becomes historically skewed off-axis. Either mode in excess can lead to a kind of paralysis. If humanity is to succeed in the millenia ahead I think we will have to grow to value both as intrisically human.



My first thought related to those who do seek through belief. In many cases they (somehow) do find, or are led to find, or are given insight to find. Sometimes what we find is that the questions we initially posed were way off-base...sometimes we find that we come full circle to rediscover hidden depths within things we only thought we knew previously. From my experience I would say that things are never what we thought they would be going in. They are far more wondrous and far more deep.
The point is that, for those who seek...there is something to find. Somehow we are not left groping in the dark.

The second thought (not sure which needed clarification...likely both) goes like this: our preexisting concepts about God, and judgement, and rules, and rigidity, and definitions have come to us via very primary, childhood presentations designed to impart a basic sense of things on a level that kids can grasp. And it generally works...for kids. Trouble is...we don't stay kids, and we need to grow past the "old man in the beard sitting on his throne on high" idea of God. That step is frequently missing these days. It's not that it's not there...it is...it's just not presented to us because it is not the something the mind of a child (well, most children) can grasp for it's complexity and nuances...it really requires adult levels of awareness.
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Insightful.
 
Randomsomeone, have you ever read Kierkegaard? I've been reading some of Kierkegaard's works lately, and your thoughts remind me of his thoughts a bit.
 
randomsomeone said:
Well, I think there is a type if intellect that is logical...one thing leading to another...to me that is linear. No problem, but I'm afraid we can get too subsumed into this mode to the point that unequivical proof is needed for everything. Yes, we live in a scientific, technological age, but that is one modality that employs a certain perspective, point-of-view, or method for understanding truth.

There is another mode of intellect, imo, that is more intuitive, connected to the nuances of this world, and able to jump into the current of things without grasping all the mechanics....or any of the mechanics for that matter. This is good, too. I am considering this a valid form of intelligence, not stupidity.

I would propose that our human capacities can, and in some cases have, becomes historically skewed off-axis. Either mode in excess can lead to a kind of paralysis. If humanity is to succeed in the millenia ahead I think we will have to grow to value both as intrisically human.



My first thought related to those who do seek through belief. In many cases they (somehow) do find, or are led to find, or are given insight to find. Sometimes what we find is that the questions we initially posed were way off-base...sometimes we find that we come full circle to rediscover hidden depths within things we only thought we knew previously. From my experience I would say that things are never what we thought they would be going in. They are far more wondrous and far more deep.
The point is that, for those who seek...there is something to find. Somehow we are not left groping in the dark.

The second thought (not sure which needed clarification...likely both) goes like this: our preexisting concepts about God, and judgement, and rules, and rigidity, and definitions have come to us via very primary, childhood presentations designed to impart a basic sense of things on a level that kids can grasp. And it generally works...for kids. Trouble is...we don't stay kids, and we need to grow past the "old man in the beard sitting on his throne on high" idea of God. That step is frequently missing these days. It's not that it's not there...it is...it's just not presented to us because it is not the something the mind of a child (well, most children) can grasp for it's complexity and nuances...it really requires adult levels of awareness.

Sounds kinda spacey....but I've been intentionally at it for 40 years and I have seen and experienced alot. The wonderful irony is that given all the awe and centeredness and connection I have experienced within the realm of belief, I am still a doofus and I know it. It's' the wonderful way of things!!!
Click to expand...


Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me :) I guess there are just some things we don't understand yet, that we can't prove. Maybe you are right that we should balance our innate intuition with logical analysis, so we can comprehend the world around us in full. I don't think trusting your intuition is stupid btw, but I know it can lead to biased decisions, and that's probably where my mistrust of it comes from. but who knows, it could be a more valid way of looking at things than the merely scientific, and if it leads to greater awareness of who we are and what we're doing here, then all the better. all tools for the purpose of understanding, right?


Here's a random thought....every been loved by someone so much that as a reflection of that love, you start to love yourself a bit more? That is how belief is...the Divine Love awakens things, possibilities, creativity in us that would not arise in and of ourselves. They come as reflections from the Divine Love. I wonder if human love is a hint at this cosmic principle.
Click to expand...
I see what you're saying, but I disagree. I think that human love is just a mechanism designed to maintain the peace, not evidence of cosmic law.

Sorry if I'm talking in riddles again. :)
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it's quite alright :]
 
I don't believe in God. I grew up in a Communist country and later migrated to the US and was introduced to the various religions. I tried to convert to Christinaity when I was going through a rough patch in my life but it made ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to me. Only in college when I took the Religious Thory on the Big 3 Religions did i understand it on an intellectual level but still could not be applied to my personal life or beliefs.
 
May said:
I guess there are just some things we don't understand yet, that we can't prove.
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Yes, probably a great many. I always figured that if I could understand the entire concept of God, then God would be no bigger than my mind.

May said:
I think that human love is just a mechanism designed to maintain the peace, not evidence of cosmic law.
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It was just a thought....probably "law" puts too fine a point on it.

When I was raising my kids (a good INFJ dad) I wondered about that whole parental thing, too There is imagery in many religions that tie into these human expressions as a means of grasping the Divine relationship, but then again there is imagery of almost every type that is used in this same way. I think it all has something to say.
 
It means to believe in a being so utterly wonderful, good, just, and merciful that it makes Him impossible for your mind to grasp were it not for His own intervention. God cannot be found by man as we so often do with our empirical faculties, but he can indeed reveal Himself to us. This moment of revelation is that brief moment in which we overcome the limits of the noumenal and at last gaze into the face of the phenomenal. As such, our belief in God becomes something altogether different from all other beliefs, which are only of the noumenal through the noumenal, whereas our belief in God is the phenomenal breaching the noumenal.

Here I quote Questions 2 and 7 of The Westminster Larger Catechism:

Q2: How doth it appear that there is a God?
A: The very light of nature in man, and the works of God, declare plainly that there is a God; but his Word and Spirit only do sufficiently and effectually reveal him unto men for their salvation.

Q7: What is God?
A: God is a Spirit, in and of himself infinite in being, glory, blessedness, and perfection; all-sufficient, eternal, unchangeable, incomprehensible, every where present, almighty, knowing all things, most wise, most holy, most just, most merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth.
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Yeah... I used a bunch of big words, forgive me.:m107:
 
I dont believe in god ( I am a Buddhist :))

I did, however, really liked the book Conversations with God books by N. Walsh. They were facinating to read.
 
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