What causes rigid ideology? | INFJ Forum

What causes rigid ideology?

Satya

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What separates those who are fluid in their beliefs from those who have rigid views? What causes someone to embrace a particular ideology even when it is not pragmatic and leads to harm? How does one determine the degree to which a belief should be held inflexibly and when it is open to more subjective interpretation?
 
What separates those who are fluid in their beliefs from those who have rigid views? What causes someone to embrace a particular ideology even when it is not pragmatic and leads to harm? How does one determine the degree to which a belief should be held inflexibly and when it is open to more subjective interpretation?

In cognitive function terms, you may be talking about the difference between introverted thinking or feeling and extroverted thinking or feelings. As introverted functions are more personalised, they are more flexible. Extroverted functions are working according to external (or "objective") rules - although, of course, nothing is ever actually objective but it seems that way to the user.

So if you use Fe/Ti you may have rigid morals that do not flex easily to allow for justification or excuses should someone break the rules. There are a set of rules and you must follow them. If you do not you are selfish. That is the way Fe thinks.

However, Ti internalises data and makes a personal decision that is changeable. It looks for inconsistency and gets to the root. Someone with high Fe and low Ti may say "they shouldn't have done that" basing their ideas on external rules - that is bad, they shouldn't have done that. OR it could say "this person does and says the right things so they can't be all bad". Ti is both more critical and more forgiving because, in combination with Fe, it excludes any "irrelevant" data. So if a person has does and says all the right things but Ni/Fe says that they have bad intentions, Ti cancels out all of those good things they said and did and says the important bit is there intentions. This works the other way round. A person is selfish or makes a mistake that hurts another person. Fe notices it. Using Ni, Ti gets to the core and seeks to identify intentions. This is the important bit. If intentions were good, it cancels out irrelevant data - bad things they have done and said, and classifies the person as "good".

Fe has moral rigidity, but Ti helps it make exceptions.

Let's say that it's about an issue but not a person. An issue that may seem impersonal.

If a person is rigid in their beliefs despite outside evidence or obvious incongruity, it may be that they don't use Ti. Ti hates inconsistency. If a belief simply does not fit into experience of the world or an unconscious picture of reality, it is wrong. For this reason, Ti is both changeable and inflexible. If an idea does not fit with their worldview, it is chucked out. If an idea does not seem inconsistent with their worldview and what "feels right" then it is accepted, even if it appears to in opposition with the person's beliefs. The user can put the new idea into the big picture and this alters the picture itself - same picture altered slightly, sometimes bringing about new meaning.

Te gets its thoughts from the outside world. It may not question what it is told. Like Fe, it has a rigid structure. So if you are using Te you look for "objective" evidence. While a Ti user may say "these statistics don't seem right because that's not my experience - that "feels" wrong", a Te user may says "let's rely on the data". It is a more impersonal belief system. The Te user does not say "this feel wrong or right", or not as much as a Ti user. It trusts details more than Ti, it trusts external data more than Ti.

So Fe and Te can have rigid beliefs because they are externally sourced. Fi and Ti attempts to fit data into a personalised system. The personalised system does have its own rigidity, it is not totally flexible, but seeing as it is not anchored outside of the person, it can be changed.
 
Importance. Long story short.

Now, going deeper...
What separates those who are fluid in their beliefs from those who have rigid views?
a) importance in the belief they're believing.
b) what they're seeing on the opposite side. This is the most commonly twisted variable. Opposition bring more loyalty, and perseverance, and persistence, but also less fluidity and more rigidity.
c) experience with members of the opposite side / sides other than theirs. Annoying right wing conservative WASP will twist your visions of right wing conservative WASPs, as much as how annoying left wing liberal gays will twist their visions. Not fair, but I'd say that's what happens.

What causes someone to embrace a particular ideology even when it is not pragmatic and leads to harm?
Importance of the meaning. Freedom is just as alluring as salvation. Perfection is just as alluring as peace, depending on who you're talking to.

How does one determine the degree to which a belief should be held inflexibly and when it is open to more subjective interpretation?
Depending on the importance of the belief personally vs the importance of the people socially.
When there are more than one people, difference will arise, even within members of the same group.

(i.e What -is- 'pragmatic'? How much? Why not that much? What is 'importance'?)
 
The answer is simple: groupthink. Some people lack the capacity for independent thought, and oftentimes have authoritarian personalities as a result.
 
What separates those who are fluid in their beliefs from those who have rigid views?
Metacognitive ability to appreciate their own mistakes.

What causes someone to embrace a particular ideology even when it is not pragmatic and leads to harm?
The illusion of comfort.

How does one determine the degree to which a belief should be held inflexibly and when it is open to more subjective interpretation?
It depends on the basis of said belief. If it is purely faith based, then it is entirely subjective and the only limit is perhaps imagination. If it is based on empirical evidence, then whatever is apparent, knowable and understandable through our senses as well as rational and logical deduction (collectively) is inflexible because, while we could be biased due to our limited ability to perceive and understand, we are working within the bounds of this system that is (apparently) constant and unchanging, so any bias becomes part of the consistent model we use to understand Nature.
 
Simple answer: Je causes rigid ideology.

Si makes it even more rigid by supporting it with established facts.
Ni makes it a little less rigid by supporting it with pattern recognition.

Have you potential confused Si/Ni in the points you are making (positive bias)? After all Si would see the immediate impact of the ideology and therefore adjust; Ni on the other hand would not (a blip in the pattern)?
 
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To add one extra thing - the absolute basis of this kind of behaviour: if someone is rigid in their beliefs, it is because their identity depends on it.

It is extraverted functions that take on rigid beliefs, as far as I can tell, but this is our anchorage in the world. Without anchorage, we have nothing to compare ourselves with. If we have nothing to compare ourselves with, we have no identity.

If your sense of self relies on a belief system (and everybody's does, this is how the psyche works, in some it's just less apparent) then having that system rocked rocks your anchorage in the world also.

People who act extremely when they face opposition are protecting themselves. They need rigidity, certainty. They confuse their beliefs with themselves. Their beliefs are them. Of course, this is not true, but according to the psyche - this "must be truth" otherwise the imaginary perception of identity or authenticity collapses.
 
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In my experience with Si users, no. They expect the world to conform to the ideology.

Maybe they weren't Si users at all, but Ni users.

PERSPECTIVE, OH SH-
 
fear
 
Maybe they dont want to deal with recreating a new belief structure and chancing all their hard work having been for nothing.
 
In my experience with Si users, no. They expect the world to conform to the ideology.

Do they really? If I remember right Si users were seen as less eccentric/extreme and more moderate than Ni users because they were disinclined to take major step-outs from 'observed mean positions' thus the more they observe the more moderate they are. By contrast Ni users to suffer from internal perspective drag. Of course, I don't buy Keirsian behavioural jiggery pokery either.

The dominant ideology :) We all stick to our own ideologies, although they could be subcultural.

Just being pedantic :)

She's got it.

Maybe they weren't Si users at all, but Ni users.

PERSPECTIVE, OH SH-

OH SH--
 
From my side I think this does frequently play a role. When a system is portrayed in a fear-based manner (even though at it's core may not be) then everything that is presented and taken in has an edge to it that promotes rigidity. If the system is not rigid at it's core, then it is possible through deeper understanding to move past a fixed, rigid vision to one that is more healthy and actually more true to core teachings.

Fear, shame, and anger can all be pretty toxic when it comes to religious ideologies, at especially on a personal level, and can cause a great deal of inner distortion. It can take many years to unlearn these patterns.
 
What separates those who are fluid in their beliefs from those who have rigid views?

The former realise that they can't know everything so there is always something else to be considered which leads to change.

What causes someone to embrace a particular ideology even when it is not pragmatic and leads to harm?

Their perspective.

How does one determine the degree to which a belief should be held inflexibly....

The person doing the believing decides that and will probably depend on your first question.

....and when it is open to more subjective interpretation?

A belief is always open to subjective interpretation as it originates from the subjects view of the object.
 
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This:

To add one extra thing - the absolute basis of this kind of behaviour: if someone is rigid in their beliefs, it is because their identity depends on it.
originally posted by justeccentricnotinsane

Originally Posted by [MENTION=3019]~jet[/MENTION]
fear


From my side I think this does frequently play a role. When a system is portrayed in a fear-based manner (even though at it's core may not be) then everything that is presented and taken in has an edge to it that promotes rigidity. If the system is not rigid at it's core, then it is possible through deeper understanding to move past a fixed, rigid vision to one that is more healthy and actually more true to core teachings.

Fear, shame, and anger can all be pretty toxic when it comes to religious ideologies, at especially on a personal level, and can cause a great deal of inner distortion. It can take many years to unlearn these patterns.

When my counselor and I were discussing this concept he told me it boils down to a "Deeply Felt Belief". The emotions/feelings tied to the thought pattern is woven or braided or so intertwined as to be unassailable until the bond is cut. To unravel the weave one must first cut it - right? An example that comes to mind is when the addict hits rock bottom. His family deserts him. His friends desert him. His employer deserts him. All those ties are cut.

I just asked my Ex (INTJ) and as usual he gives me the Meta view: He said our society seeks to reinforce belief systems in an effort to maintain status quo for fear of it falling apart. Security is paramount. This coincides with ~jet's view of Fear being the root cause of rigidity. Randomsomeone says it also.

Perhaps in our society our unwillingness to address and show/accept our emotions keeps many people locked into their assumed (given to us by our culture) roles. Which agrees with the "it's our identity" concept.

So - rigidity in a particular belief is reinforced by our root, deeply felt, emotions tied to a thought pattern - and also - by society at large. It's coming at us from within and without. Until the bond is cut - which as you can imagine is very painful - there's no changing it.
 
1) ability to learn, whether it be from mistakes, observations, teachings, education, whatever.

2) False sense of security, which boils down to fear of the unknown; goes hand-in-hand with (1)

3) How well it reconciles one's paradigm and reality; lack of understanding, which also reinforces (1)

The more you know, the weirder you are. Or so I've been told.
 
Is rigid Ideology bad?
 
Is rigid Ideology bad?

When paired with close-mindedness, I would say yes.

That of course, begs the question. Can someone be rigid in their beliefs and still be open and accepting of other ideas and perspectives?