Utah Pride Experience | INFJ Forum

Utah Pride Experience

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by Satya, Jun 9, 2008.

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  1. Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    I just got back from Utah Pride, which was the gay pride parade and festival they hold each year in Salt Lake City. It was an interesting experience. My favorite part was the protesters. For the thousands of people that were at the festival, there was only 2 protesters. They held up wonderful signs like, "Homo sex is sinful" and "Homosexual churches are devilish". The shouted out, "Repent now or burn in hell". What was funny as hell was that they had 6 cops standing by in case anything happened for just the two of them. A group gathered after awhile and I watched them shout back and forth. I heard people yell, "God loves everybody" probably a thousand times.

    I learned a lot from watching about the nature of religion and the susceptibility of human beings to emotional issues. Only 2 people with signs were able to stir up a crowd of a hundred and some were there for hours yelling out heated arguments to those protesters. At first, I was anxious to go mention to those protesters how they were not resting on the Sabbath, which was a sin in the Bible. But as I got closer and I could see into their eyes, I realized that those people were gone to the world. There was no emotion there whatsoever, even though they were being directly challenged for what they believe and accused of clear hypocrisies. I realized that it wasn't worth it because all that mattered to them, were their own beliefs. They didn't care about themselves or the people around them, only in the unyielding conviction behind their rants. If anything, it was clear that they fed off the anger of the crowd and accepted it as victory.

    And I realized there wasn't all that much difference between both sides. The festival side (a mixture of gay, bi, and heterosexual people) was trying to incite some sort of response from the protesters, and the protesters seemed to just be reveling in the victory of getting a response from the crowd. Both sides had their own beliefs, and both sides believed the other side was wrong. And yet, I couldn't help but marvel at how the only difference between the two sides, was how they came to hold their beliefs. Ultimately, the only difference between a gay basher and a gay man is when and where they were born. Even if the gay man was born gay, it was a factor of his genetics and hormones, and thus a simple product of when and where.,

    I think all these religious arguments have actually helped me to understand what was really meant by "judge not ye be judged". Who we are isn't determined by our beliefs, but the experiences that lead us to choose those beliefs. There isn't any sense in judging each other for what we believe, because the sum of the things we have chosen to believe come from experiences outside of our control. For example, whether you are a Muslim or a Christian could be as simple as what part of the world you were born in.

    I'll talk about some of my other experiences later, but I thought I would share that one and hear what you guys think. I know it sounds incredibly simple and obvious, but it demolishes me.
     
  2. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    I cannot stand Pride Marches. Wow, they're proud of something that they were born as... Come on everyone, lets have a Caucasian Pride March (no that'd be racist), or a Male Pride March (no, that'd be sexist), or a Brown Hair Pride March (no that'd be silly).

    So they're gay? Who cares? They're shutting down an entire street. It's almost as bad as the world trade centre being hit and my television being flooded with news about it, all when I wanted to watch simpsons, or some other awesome show.

    They ought to get rid of the "GAY" part of the pride march and just call it what it is, "Hedonistic Pride March". I've a gay mate who is as reticent as I am when it comes to public displays of affection or sexual outbursts, he cannot stand them either and according to him "How are they representing me? I don't want to stand on a float in pink lace undies and scream laugh, I just want to fuck a bloke". They ought to include Bi-Sexual people, and Heterosexual People, and then just bring it back to its roots. South American Street Party.

    As far as the religious arguments go, the Protesters are right. According to the Abrahamic Faith (all branches), sex with your own gender is against gods wishes. So what? If one religion doesn't suit you, that's when you find a new one. Buddists have nothing against it, nor do Jainists, or some animists... The Order of Shai Gar has nothing against it either.
     
  3. sriv

    sriv Community Member

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    I was wondering why you spent 4 long paragraphs on it. But it adds to the atmosphere, which is good.

    I feel the same way. Nurture does play a huge role in opinions and it sucks.
    I think this is the whole point of the transcendentalist movement, to detach from wordly limitations and remove all bias.

    Shai, you can't invalidate the usefulness of Pride Marches.
    -Gives a rough estimate of how many gays there are.
    -Shows how powerful they are, in belief and in number.
    -A chance to appreciate themselves for who they are, when they are mocked and bullied everywhere else. Pride is mainly an esteem boosting emotion.
     
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  4. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    A persons pride should come from their self, if it doesn't then they do not deserve it.
    Their only power comes from lobby groups and marginal swing voting. There are not many, especially if the pitiful amounts that rock up to a pride march, is indicative of the number of activists they have. Not in ratio to the general population.
    A persons pride should come from their self, if it doesn't then they do not deserve it.

    I think you're misusing the word "Invalidate" seems to be happening a lot lately.
     
  5. OP
    Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    I think I'll briefly interject on your pride debate, but feel free to continue if you want.

    Another thing that was amazing about the whole experience was how it brought so many different people from many different communities together. All the events were family safe and fun, and there were children everywhere. I usually am anxious of heterosexual people but seeing so many families there, and many even wearing rainbow colors, was extremely nice. There is no greater sign of equality and love than lots of different people coming together and just having fun.

    I have to admit that the parade was a little hedonistic, but compared to what you see on TV nowadays, it was PG. I actually got to march in it and I was just amazed at how many people there were and how excited everyone was.

    It didn't make me proud of being "bisexual" or "gay", it made me proud of being human. I was incredibly happy to be a part of such an open minded and friendly community of people of all types.
     
  6. Kwistalline

    Kwistalline Permanent Fixture

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    I agree that our experiences contribute to who we are, but I'd like to think my choices determine who I am. My environment was nurturing on the part of my father and torturing on the part of my mother!!

    No, seriously, you are right. Fundamentalists of any religion tend to pass on a harsh sense of religious brutality. I was raised in a very different environment. My father was gentle, understanding, and allowed me to think what I wished. I knew he would love me in spite of my choices, which is part of the reason I am so like him.He never antagonized me. All of the girls in my family had autonomy and respect from him.

    What is sad is how often that does not happen. I think I'm the only girl I know who can openly talk to her father about sex and other "grown-up" stuff without feeling awkward. Strangely enough, I am the only girl in my family who is like that. I wonder, is it an INFJ thing to be open about everything when you realize someone totally loves and accepts you no matter what?
     
  7. Elizabeth

    Elizabeth Regular Poster

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    But they do have them. They just divide them up by ethnic group. Every year we have the St. Patrick's Day Parade (Irish), the Columbus Day Parade (Italian), the Greek Independence Day Parade, the Pulaski Day Parade (Polish), the Steuben Parade (German), and on and on and on.

    While these events nominally commemorate holidays and events, they have everything to do with pride.
     
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  8. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Heh. Only in America.

    In Australia the only Irish we have are contractors, diplomats, businessmen and tourists. And so on with all the ethnic groups.

    *Idea for a thread*
     
  9. sriv

    sriv Community Member

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    Damn Ti. Always gets me.

    I agree with you, but then again, I don't think anyone should have any pride at all. I'm not going to tell people what they can and cannot believe. It is silly, but then again, so are a lot of things.
    I was actually focusing on the psychological impact. When a gay person looks around at a pride march and sees all these people just like him, it makes him feel less alone in the world.
    Just like befire I first went to INTJf. I felt like I was the last person left on earth, that's how different and out-of-place I felt.

    "Deserving it" is for the self to decide. Allow them to illusion themselves all they want, it makes them feel better, and it makes them more productive. Plus arrogance is a weakness, that you can exploit. So why do you care so much (apart from holding up a street)?
     
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  10. sumone

    sumone down the rabbit hole

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    We had a gay pride parade and festival on Sunday and I just don't know what to think. It's getting more like Mardi Gras/Halloween every year.
    The protesters just add to the cartoonish air.
    I don't get the protesters at all. Do they actually think they are representing their Lord holding up those ridiculous picket signs? They call themselves Christians but they don't seem to show any of those fruits. I think they're fringe wacko groups that just give Christianity a bad name. Seems to be their only purpose.
     
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  11. Lurker

    Lurker Has nothing to destroy
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    Loved your commentary Satya, if only more people understood the irrelevance of trying to convince someone that the beliefs that they consider to be infallible are wrong. The overwhelming desire is to tell them and convince them they are ignorant but it’s pointless, when someone gets to the stage of protesting, their mind is made up. Abusing them only affirms their beliefs.

    Most people I know who attend Mardi Gras would do so for the party atmosphere and the chance to meet people that they have something in common with that can often be the cause for ostracisation, I don’t see anything wrong with that. 'Gay Pride' it's just a saying, something that shows me the magnitude of discrimination that can be experianced. I think it relates more to pride in oneself and ones action, saying they can be proud of themselves even though others say their meer existance is a sin.

    Doesn't stop everyone else dressing up in green face paint and acting Irish though :mrgreen:
     
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  12. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    Agreed. Though the same can be said of nearly all those "activist christians". They are as bad as the fundamentalist muslims.

    Most of the Irish I know or have met don't seem to act like the Americans do though... It'd be offensive if people were "Acting Gay", or "Acting Muslim"

    :( Saddens me about the world.
     
  13. CokeNut

    CokeNut Community Member

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    My personal favorite of course would be the Puerto Rican Day parade - WooHoo! :mrgreen:

    As for Gay pride ... I agree that the marches and parades may give them a sense of community whereby they feel less alone. At least thats the way the Puerto Rican parade makes us feel when we participate.

    Oh yeah, and I REALLY hate when one group with an agenda decides to 'crash' another group's party to protest and spead ill will. It may be their right ... yadda yadda yadda, but it still sucks ... Can't we all just get along?
     
  14. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    I believe they have a constitutional right to not be nice...
     
  15. CokeNut

    CokeNut Community Member

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    I never said they didn't ... I just wish they wouldn't choose someone else's time of celebration/grief to bitch and moan.

    e.g. Anti-gay protestors at Gay Pride rallies, or Anti-war protestors at soldier's funerals
     
  16. sriv

    sriv Community Member

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    Now that's just f***ed up.
     
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  17. OP
    Satya

    Satya C'est la vie
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    I've yet to see that. Are you sure you aren't talking about the Westboro Baptist Church? They are not antiwar. They are anti America because we allow homosexuality and whatnot, and in their reasoning, the result of that is our soldiers die and burn in hell. They became nationally famous because they picketed soldier's funerals.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church
     
  18. CokeNut

    CokeNut Community Member

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    Yeah, you are right. When I first heard the story it was being said that the group was anti-war, but then it was reported that it was Phelp's group. Thanks for the clarification. :oops:
     
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