Unhealthy for INFJs to create art?

[Billy]

Isn't that really how it works in the first place?

Thats what I'm saying, especially in practice as I have seen it.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

Its not?

Isn't that really how it works in the first place?

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[MENTION=933]Seraphim[/MENTION]
I read the original article. I was really disheartening, especially since the blog houses my favorite INFJ description.

“Jumping the Stack”: A Less Sustainable/Effective Means of Satisfying the Inferior Function
INJs Physically producing art or otherwise working to directly actualize (Se) ideas

“From the Top of the Stack Down”: A Less Direct, But More Sustainable Means of Satisfying the Inferior
INJs
Perceive and generate theories/visions/ideas (Ni) that indirectly beautify or perfect the world (Se)

Well...I guess I'm ready to start spewing ideas, like a churn. Come hither o hordes of S-artesans ready to do my bidding. The oracle awaits... ...and awaits... ...and awaits...
anyone??? Free Ni!!!! ... no?

Let's just go get a beer or something.. ..no.. that's se too. Damn se!!!

I get her point, in a way but c'mon!!! No one will climb up my mountain. Even as a "scientist" you will have to at least write something. That is tangible result... like a blog for example. She's INTJ and she's not supposed to have direct impact with ideas...like writing a blog. ....Maybe she should give the ideas and an S type can write it.
I know she's trying to help people and has a lovely free blog, but I think this idea is overkill.

 

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hwell::tape::baby:

 

[1whitehorse1]

Hey. I have been grappling with this as of lately.

I have a lot to say about this as I'm and INFJ, and I identify as an artist. I did it all through high school and university. But does that make me an artist? I studied art history to the nines, got straight A's and even A+'s. I sold one canvas in my life.

I have realized lately that my art is hard for people to 'enter' and enjoy. I often pick subject matter that is too personal, and I have also noticed that I am projecting my ego/id/super ego into the work directly. And this kind of psychological profiling in one's work...I think it prevents the enjoyment of it. It is not, as my ISFJ sister said, 'a picture of something cool/neat/pretty'. It's well executed, and it has layered meaning to me. But maybe not to the viewer.

Also, let me say this: in university, I happened to read the Letters of Vincent Van Gogh, to his Brother Theo. Huge impact in the sense that I realized...Van Gogh was an INFJ! (Shudder) Now, if this isn't shocking and even a little disturbing, for an artist who is an INFJ, let's just say, I didn't want to end up like Van Gogh, painting for his values and his idealisms and his hopes for humanity...while all his other artist friends just painted a really fine nude ass... I'm saying, Van Gogh was a true idealist INFJ. He also identified as an artist. His goal was to express himself through art. Meanwhile, his artist friends used art to document the beauty and enjoyment around them. His canvases were tortured, and it's partly only because of his tragic story that we still look at his art today. We label him a 'romantic'.

Now, if Van Gogh had been born in the era of abstract expressionism, which is essentially the era he grandfathered, he might have been more successful if he focused on only the abstract elements of his work...instead of painting peasants. His work was not aspirational, it was too honest, too real.

I digress.

But in sum, I would say, I have not explored abstract painting yet, although I want to. I think it will get me in touch with the physicality of the paint, and the pure formal qualities, without being weighed down by personal baggage, issues and lofty idealisms.

Sometimes I wish I was more superficial.

So I think that is what the lady writing this article is talking about. Maybe she means, sometimes the INFJ can make their work too personal and therefore unrelatable. That's just an idea I have.

 

[1whitehorse1]

Sorry to be a party pooper, but Trent Reznor is a glaring ISFJ (his wife is ESFP). Most dedicated and prolific PROFESSIONAL musicians are either ISFJ/ESFP or ESTJ/ISTJ. Example, Chino from Deftones, ESTJ. Lead singer of Korn, ESTJ. Prince, ISFJ. Lady Gaga, ESFP. Also, they kind of stick together in pairs. Either a band is this grouping or that grouping because they're either vibing on the T or the F wavelength. I usually prefer listening to the ISFJ/ESFP grouping cause they're all 'feelers' like me. My boyfriend prefers the heavy metal produced by bands that are ESTJ/ISTJ. It's kinda rare to find an ISFP in music, but Lana Del Rey is an example of that type, which is someone I would listen to. My brother in law is a professional ESFP guitarist in an up and coming band with other ISFJs and ESFPs. I'm not saying 'N's can't make music for themselves, I'm just saying it's less likely they'll do it long-term and professionally/commercially.

I was reading this forum post about Lenore Thomson's interpretation of Ni ( http://www.personalitynation.com/ju...-interpretation-introverted-intuition-ni.html )



I think you could pretty well read between the lines and replace "mental supremacy" (Te) to "social supremacy" (Fe) to illustrate the Se inferior problems.

In my own life and work I think those were the two defining stresses I faced in my own artistic work. I've been in exile and house arrest (not literal ;D) for some time now to grapple with the problem as to HOW exactly do I want to exist and express myself?
I don't personally think it's the WHAT as much as the HOW. I feel the real stresses that the "mystery INFJ" who's comments sparked this thread has faced may indicate a real problem that many in the creative professions have to face at one poit of another concerning the harsh reality of the fact of how "the system works" may not be entirely INFJ friendly. Things are done a certain way. In the music business for bands it's mostly first earning your stripes touring and building a rep, getting signed...yadda yadda...building an "artistic identity" and body of work. However much of it's just expected socializing and schmoozing, network building and if you want backing you've got to be somewhat "selling" because the labels etc would be taking a financial risk and want bang for their buck. Then there's the fact random people want to become involved with your private life for several reasons. ...Becoming an "idol" is kind of crazy (whatever the magnitude that it happens). People confuse you for some nut job because of the way Ni may express in outlandishly seeming ways in your work as you're working on some theme from unusual perspectives, yet in person you're subdued and "kind of ordinary" (Fe communication...lest hassle to play by the book unless to express or embody some distinct idea via a socio-visual "identity" ala David Bowie...but hey who can do that forever?) ..now all THAT combined is what I think can cause you to burn out...
Many of my favorite artists that I think are INFJ tend to become famous first, disillusioned next and retire from the limelight to beaver away just creating for the sake of creation almost (Like Trent Reznor and Kate Bush...Prince...etc). Some take a break and do something else (Leonard Cohen went to a monastery, Kate Bush became a housewife with a penchant for gardening.) Sometimes they emerge with a very different, more autonomous, less dependent of the outside world, way of working bringing these artistic visions to life. Kate Bush who is a notorious perfectionist at fifty mentioned in her interview that she's more open to leaving mistakes and imperfections in her work , there being a more "human" impressionistic element emerging in her work, which would coincide nicely with Se development. (http://undertheivybook.blogspot.fi/) One other aspect was being able to actually live outside one's work, enjoying living in the moment more, not just being the errand boy for art. Being a human too, a human who does art, not art that does human...

 

[heiots]

To bring this full circle, I will say that I believe that producing wisdom/insight (a la Ni) IS, in fact, an artform. It’s an N art. As an N art, as stated above, it requires different tools for expression – abstract tools – tools that cater more directly to the mind than the five senses, namely words. As N dominants we need to work on seeing the CONCEPT as art. That’s our gift – the gift of insight.

So we've got the abstract tools, but how do you translate the insight into a language that others understand? Is that not the point of poems, music, and visual art?

This thread explains a lot. It's disturbing, enlightening, and somewhat discouraging. From having confirmation that S individuals make better performers, how dance - as much as I love it when I do it - exhausts me (gotta rethink how much I'm heaping on my plate), how creating art is similar to the addiction cycle, the whole idealism, having the end concept in mind, and being unreasonably upset when the standard is not met. This has been on my mind for a long time. The stress has been seeping into bits and pieces of writing, musical pursuits, and graphic art. Perhaps I'll be wiser in what sort of creative arts I engage in, but it doesn't mean I'm going to stop doing art. It's like asking me to cease enjoyment in life. Or asking me to stop communicating.

I don't know if the struggle of fighting idealism during the actual creating process is ever going to fully go away. This recovering perfectionist is hoping it will, learning that imperfections are part of the beauty. And I hope at the end of my life, if someone asks me if I would do this all over again, the answer would be, "Yes, I would, and I wouldn't trade it for anything".

And at least I've got The Artist Way and [MENTION=884]solongotgon[/MENTION]'s advice on perfectionism to help deal.

*forgets article, does more art*

 

[Freyja]

I saw that exchange. I found it very depressing.
As an INFJ who went to school for Art, I was like "I've wasted all this time and money...."
I was worried I would never be as good as a Sensor. I was worried that I would never make a meaningful impact on the world if I focused on art.
I had the opportunity to study under a "Master" to improve my skills even more....but I chose not to spend the money because I thought that I wasn't truly meant to be an "artist". That I lacked the attention to detail to make real art.
I stopped making art.
And I tried to focus on my CAREER. And what to DO with myself.
And I wasn't very happy.
Then lately I started again and it has made me feel happy. I enjoy spending hours watching cartoons and drawing. Like a 6-year-old.

Our inferior functions do start out as our weaknesses but as we grow and mature they become our strengths. Why can't I use SE if it is ONE OF MY FUNCTIONS?
Also...is this person saying that we cannot actually DO anything in the world. We are supposed to just think of ideas and tell people about them? I mean, yeah, it would be great if INFJs could just be Wise Spiritual Oracle Gurus or something...but we can't all be those. Some of us ARE drawn to engage in the physical world.
For me, painting and drawing are like meditation. I can go within while my physical body is active. It's just like how yoga is meditative. You move the body so you can quiet the mind. Are INFJs not allowed to do yoga?
I understand that this person is saying that our actions are supposed to follow through from function 1 to function 4, but how is doing art "jumping the stack"? Especially if I intuit something and have a feeling about it and then want to create an image about that?

I don't think that I have the same patience as maybe a sensor would for the slow SLOW SSLLOOOWWWW process of true classical realism (which I love), but I do love sitting for hours and creating something beautiful and realistic. And I'm good at it.
Maybe it isn't how I should try to make a living. But I wouldn't say it is an unhealthy hobby.

I do worry that I would have been better at writing than visual arts. Communicating through words does seem to flow a lot easier than through images. But I never pursued writing. Mostly because my twin sister was into writing and I didn't want to take that away from her. I was always conscious of trying not to be in competition with her in the areas that she wanted to pursue. And now I have put a lot of time and energy and money into drawing and painting. To give up and try a totally new direction seems like an insane loss.

I dunno.

 

[Freyja]

Hey. I have been grappling with this as of lately.

I have a lot to say about this as I'm and INFJ, and I identify as an artist. I did it all through high school and university. But does that make me an artist? I studied art history to the nines, got straight A's and even A+'s. I sold one canvas in my life.

I have realized lately that my art is hard for people to 'enter' and enjoy. I often pick subject matter that is too personal, and I have also noticed that I am projecting my ego/id/super ego into the work directly. And this kind of psychological profiling in one's work...I think it prevents the enjoyment of it. It is not, as my ISFJ sister said, 'a picture of something cool/neat/pretty'. It's well executed, and it has layered meaning to me. But maybe not to the viewer.

Also, let me say this: in university, I happened to read the Letters of Vincent Van Gogh, to his Brother Theo. Huge impact in the sense that I realized...Van Gogh was an INFJ! (Shudder) Now, if this isn't shocking and even a little disturbing, for an artist who is an INFJ, let's just say, I didn't want to end up like Van Gogh, painting for his values and his idealisms and his hopes for humanity...while all his other artist friends just painted a really fine nude ass... I'm saying, Van Gogh was a true idealist INFJ. He also identified as an artist. His goal was to express himself through art. Meanwhile, his artist friends used art to document the beauty and enjoyment around them. His canvases were tortured, and it's partly only because of his tragic story that we still look at his art today. We label him a 'romantic'.

Now, if Van Gogh had been born in the era of abstract expressionism, which is essentially the era he grandfathered, he might have been more successful if he focused on only the abstract elements of his work...instead of painting peasants. His work was not aspirational, it was too honest, too real.

I digress.

But in sum, I would say, I have not explored abstract painting yet, although I want to. I think it will get me in touch with the physicality of the paint, and the pure formal qualities, without being weighed down by personal baggage, issues and lofty idealisms.

Sometimes I wish I was more superficial.

So I think that is what the lady writing this article is talking about. Maybe she means, sometimes the INFJ can make their work too personal and therefore unrelatable. That's just an idea I have.

You just helped me understand myself and my art. And Van Gogh. And I agree with a lot of what you said.

 

[invisible]

person corresponding in OP had major obsessive compulsive perfectionistic issues that were nothing to do with her type. because she was unable to face the realities both of her own issues and the messy world that is out there, she used mbti to conveniently explain away her ineffectual approach to actually resolving creative ideas in legitimate artistic products. its just another pathetic example of someone hiding in mbti rather than using it as a tool with its own limitations to move forward in the ways that it makes possible. pay no attention to people who tell you that you cant do something because they gave up on it themselves.

i realise that this is a whole lot of ad hominem of a type in which i would not normally indulge, but others have already pretty capably criticised all the backwards and upside down details the correspondent wrote about mbti.

 

[invisible]

i think Van Gogh is one of the greatest artists of all time, a revolutionary and profound thinker who painted everything, and never made a single unsuccessful decision in any aspect of approach or choice of subject in his entire glorious body of work. quite apart from the perfections of his artistic achievements, i also think he had severe mental health problems. just my humble opinion.

 

[sprinkles]

Don't be pretentious and you'll be fine.

 

[Skarekrow]

I don’t see how creating any type of Art could be negative for anyone, unless said person were a perfectionist never satisfied with their own creations.
I can relate to that, there is probably a whole book of poetry burned up years ago, along with many drawings.

But I have found that you create what you create and then it no longer belongs to you to pick apart.
How many paintings have they found via x-rays and MRIs under some of the most famous paintings by people we consider to be Masters?
How many books sit on library shelves collecting dust that contains nothing short of their Author’s heart and soul poured into the pages?

You have to create it - then let it go.

 

[hush]

I don’t see how creating any type of Art could be negative for anyone, unless said person were a perfectionist never satisfied with their own creations.
I can relate to that, there is probably a whole book of poetry burned up years ago, along with many drawings.

I've done the same. There can be something cathartic about letting go, but this was not the case with destroying what I had created. The art and writing I have left from my youth is only a tiny fraction of what I have crafted, left only because it was tucked away somewhere and I missed it.

Quite honestly, one of the healthiest things for me is to create. In retrospect, destroying hundreds of pages of writing and countless drawings and paintings... has really done nothing positive me. To a certain degree it almost made me detach from the artistic process and lose what I had loved so dearly.

I think art elevates and uplifts, soothes the soul and provides an outlet for us to express what cannot be verbalized. I know this has already been addressed in this thread, but I just wanted to add that, at least for me, art has been nothing but a positive influence in my life.

And that, in fact, it is the lack thereof which has adversely affected me.

But I have found that you create what you create and then it no longer belongs to you to pick apart.
How many paintings have they found via x-rays and MRIs under some of the most famous paintings by people we consider to be Masters?
How many books sit on library shelves collecting dust that contains nothing short of their Author’s heart and soul poured into the pages?

You have to create it - then let it go.

I think there is wisdom in this. Create what you create for yourself, for the satisfaction of merely challenging yourself in the artistic process, for others, because it is an outlet for you - for whatever reason, but... there comes a point when it is indeed advantageous to just let it go, regardless of the impetus behind your creations.

 

[Artisan]

I do art stuff too, seem's like another case of someone projecting their views on others and taking it for fact.

 

[invisible]

I think that if you're an artist, you will create art, and whether or not you take time away from it, nothing will finally prevent you from finding a way to do it, because no other thing that you are able to do will be the same as it for you. (Again just my opinion - people who do not create art may still be artists - I'm not completely sure, and am open to hearing other opinions.)

 

[sprinkles]

There's a saying about fishing that goes "It's called fishing, not catching"

I think the same premise applies to art.

 

[Ryso89]

You (we, us, everyone with an inherent capability) were born to create. To draw, to write, to paint, to play music, to dream. For some jack ass fuck wad to actually suggest that it is "unhealthy" to pursue that which comes naturally and authentically to many people, is a stain on society, and should remove their very existence with prudent haste.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

I think there are less words to test whether this is true:

1. Are you Vincent Van Gogh?
2. Are you a sick fuck?