There is an Alternative to Capitalism | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

There is an Alternative to Capitalism

I like co-ops.

Although I don't think that co-ops actually address the fundamental issue that Capitalism, at least most capitalism, brings about. Co-ops are giving people more power in a company and that's great; but the real issue of capitalism and what causes the system to be so flawed is when Capitalism isn't regulated. There is no such thing as a "free" market...free markets explode on themselves, which we witnessed during 2008. The concept of the invisible hand has been proven false. The only way that I can see co-ops solving anything is if they chose to make smaller companies and less products in order to prevent monopolization, which I don't think they would. The solution to solve the capitalism problem is government intervention, a mixed economy, socialistic capitalism.
 
Not that this is related, but I do think it's interesting how you really didn't hear about how much capitalism sucks when we weren't in a recession.
It makes me think that people just hate recessions, but don't want to sound redundant. .

People have been arguing against capitalism for as long as capitalism has been around. Ever heard of: Marx, Bookchin, Kropotkin, Bakunin?

Things are reaching a fever pitch now because we are in an unprecendented global crisis

So now is a pretty good time to discuss alternatives because more and more people are being radicalised by the harsh environment that capitalism is creating.

I don't think that anyone would argue that socialism can work on a local level… as a novelty, or among friends, it's doable. But I can't imagine an entire nation, or an entire world held together like that. There have always been imbalances of power and wealth in successful civilizations, and probably always will be… unless you want to return to the jungles and live a simple life among a small population of villagers/nomads, it's going to happen.

Well you really can't say what other other people will argue you just have to listen to what people are saying and then decide what you think

You can't say that altermnatives can't work because they do! Lerxst has given an example in the OP, the cooperative movement is vast, credit unions are becoming increasingly popular, LETs transition towns etc

I'm reading a book at the moment called 'The Dictionary of Alternatives' by Parker, Fournier & Reedy which discusses hundreds of alternative ways of organising because the reality is that there are as many ways for people to organise themselves as their imaginations permit!

The reason many of these alternatives haven't survived is because they were VIOLENTLY crushed by elites eg the peasants revolt, the peterloo massacre, the paris commune etc

The anarchists ran whole districts very successfully in the spanish civil war until the fascists (supplied by Hitler) and the state capitalists (supplied by stalin) crushed them

Today there is a community called Marinaleda in Spain that is still successfully run along anarchist communist lines as are the zapatistas in central america and then there are alternative ways of living such as auroville and kinghorn etc

People are very creative....the only reason a sick system such as capitalism has limped its way into the 21st century is because global financiers and regressive governments have used violence and threats to keep it going

I hope you have a look at the book i mentioned as you might find it encouraging to see how many options we have really....but to live out such ideas requires getting out from under the jackboot of the elites and that as countless people have found throughout history is very difficult
 
WHAT ABOUT SWEDEN BILLY! huh!
 
[MENTION=1451]Billy[/MENTION] DAMNIT! h

WHAT ABOUT SWEDEN!
 
Economies need to operate based on the flow of money and globally, that flow is decreasing rapidly - poor people who are working for those low wages, don't have the money to spend to buy the products the millionaires are producing in their companies.

I'm just playing devil's advocate because I don't know economics. But why can't workers afford the products they are producing? In other words, what factors are keeping the cost of those products too high? Given the fact that the purchasing power of a persons wages is what determines their standard of living, not just the wage itself.

Also are people's standards of living really that bad when compared to history? What level of entitlement do people have when it comes to their standard of living? When does the line get drawn?

These are all just questions people should consider before concluding that capitalism is a failed model.
 
That is STATE CAPITALISM not socialism.

That sounds like a philosophical statement. I can digg what you are saying though. When you really boil it down, there is nothing but capitalism no matter how it's implemented. I hope people can conceptualize what I'm saying.
 
Bad example, they are very culturally homogenous.

Are they culturally homogenous because of socialism? Are we culturally heterogeneous because of capitalism?

Oh life... why must you be so confusing?
 
Socialism working at large.

I'm pretty sure Scandinavia is considered large. Also being homogenous has fuck all to do with anything.

That said my intent wasn't to push some political agenda. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of socialism, but it's not for every country.

It wouldn't work in the US, just as it wouldn't work in Brazil or China. Not because of size, but because of the massive rich/poor gap and the difficulty for the poor to improve their situation.
 
Gotta hand it to you OP, using any part of Spain as a financial SUCCESS story is absolutely brilliant.

You let me know how that works, meanwhile America will keep chugging along giving billions of donations around the world from our greedy capitalist pockets.
 
There is no such thing as a "free" market...free markets explode on themselves, which we witnessed during 2008.

face, fucking, palm.
 
Gotta hand it to you OP, using any part of Spain as a financial SUCCESS story is absolutely brilliant.

You let me know how that works, meanwhile America will keep chugging along giving billions of donations around the world from our greedy capitalist pockets.

The Spanish economy is in terrible state because it has been going along with the agreement created by the US after the second world war called by some the 'washington consensus'

However despite th fact that the western world is now screwed for following US policy there are some elements within the west that are still a success....these elements are generally the ones built around community and not capitalist principles of competition

Also it was banks in the US who gave mortgages to people who would never be able to pay them off, packaged these 'sub prime' mortgages into bundles, gave them 'triple A' ratings (which should mean theyre safe products) and then sold them throughout the global economy causing the global credit crunch

The US deregulated and went off the gold standard in the 1970's and has seen more deregulation since which has allowed the bankers free hand to behave how they want....and what happens when you let baners do that is that they find ways to keep all the money themselves

The US also insisted that they have the dollar as a world reserve currency which has helped prop up the US economy for decades and along with US lead agreements such as NAAFTA and US lead organisations such as the World Bank, IMF and WTO combined with a trigger happy military the US had been able to bully the rest of the world into following a neoliberal doctrine that has now left all of us in the shit including Spain

The money that is coming from your 'greedy capitalist pocket' is printed by the central bank (federal reserve banK) and given to the government in return for bonds. When the government gets money from the central bank the bank charges them interest so there is debt attahced to every dollar in your system which is why your country has more debt than anyone else

The bankers solution is to print more money!!!! This is simply a giant ponzi scheme that is beginning to unravel. the US is sitting on foundations of straw and we are fast approaching a time where a new financial infrastructure will need to be put into place

But in order to implement such a radical change people must first be desperate....so a climate of desperation is being created
 
I'm just playing devil's advocate because I don't know economics. But why can't workers afford the products they are producing? In other words, what factors are keeping the cost of those products too high? Given the fact that the purchasing power of a persons wages is what determines their standard of living, not just the wage itself.

Also are people's standards of living really that bad when compared to history? What level of entitlement do people have when it comes to their standard of living? When does the line get drawn?

These are all just questions people should consider before concluding that capitalism is a failed model.

The purchasing power of money is going down because we are in a deflationary spiral

Rather than me trying inadequatly to explain that perhaps you can look into it yourself?

Also wages have stagnated and more people are being driven out of work or into part time work because the money has been sucked out of the system to pay the global creditors

We all live in the realeconomy of production and consumption but the bankers don't produce anything they simply extract interest from the real economy. When the banks failed, instead of our governments saying 'look guys you've fucked up here you are just going to have to say to your creditors (the global investors....and i'm talking here about billionaire and trillionaire people and families) that you can't pay them and they will simply have to right off the debt (like they have been doing since ancient sumeria)

This would have allowed the real economy to keep going; but the governments didn't do this. Instead they chose to take money from the real economy (taxpayer money) in the form of 'bank bailouts' and they gave it to the bankers to give to the global creditors

This has meant that there is less money for us and that the debt between the bankers and creditors has been passed onto us and our children and our childrens children etc

The central banks have printed more and more money (quantitative easing) and as every school boy/girl knows if you print more money then it has an inflationary effect of devaluing the money in circulation

Combined with this they have kept interest rates low because they argue that if rates are low then people who are trying to save money will realise that their wealth in the bank is simply beinf eaten up by inflation and is actually decreasing NOT increasing and will start to spend money again and boost the economy.

Low interest rates are however good for the global speculators.

So think about what all this means

What it means is that despite the vast majority of people working everyday and paying their bills and taxes and if they're doing very well managing to put some money aside as savings a small number of bankers have been taking peoples money and gambling with it until it all dissapeared

But money doesn't just dissapear it simply changes hands

So what we have seen is a transferral of money from hardworking taxpayers who were just playing by the rules into the hands of bankers and global speculators who have been getting upto all sorts of fraudulent behaviours

The honest tax payer can't keep money safe in the bank, their pension funds are raided by the bankers, their house values are dropping, and they are now being made to pay for the bankers behaviour in cuts to public spending (austerity) which causes a lowering of the quality of life

Think about that for a minute.

The politicians have chosen to give vast amounts of money to a small number of people leaving life much tougher for millions.....now why would they do that? Two reasons....one is that they are bought and paid for by the super rich few and two because they have a grand plan

The grand plan is to create a new economic system and they see the hardhsip of the people as simply some eggs that must be cracked in order to make a big new omellete

The people understandably are not happy about losing public services, their savings, their homes, their jobs, the purchasing power of their money, their civil liberties (due to changes in the law) especially while they are watching the bankers who have created this situation getting massive bonuses and the global creditors getting payed billions in bailouts and then using that money to buy up 'privatised' national assets which governments are selling at reduced rates in 'firesales'

It is not a case of 'entitlement'....it is a case of law abiding, hard working people wanting their governemnts not to sell the rug out from underneath them to a small bunch of greedy, power hungry global sheisters

So how do they get away with this? Its simple they keep the public working hard and they keep them missinformed

Bankers have been put into positions of power in European governments to replace democratically elected politicians. they have called these people 'technocrats' but that is short hand for 'bankers'. Techionocrats have been put in charge of countries to manage a transition to a new world....a brave new world....where the global creditors will own everything and you will be their fuedal vassal

It was all put pretty eloquently in the 1976 film 'network':



[video=youtube;jxiT30N6ti4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxiT30N6ti4[/video]
That is why there is so much protest, because some people don't want to roll the clock back to fuedalism
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Patrick Williams
The apocalypse followed by hunting and gathering.
 
The Spanish economy is in terrible state because it has been going along with the agreement created by the US after the second world war called by some the 'washington consensus'

However despite th fact that the western world is now screwed for following US policy there are some elements within the west that are still a success....these elements are generally the ones built around community and not capitalist principles of competition

Also it was banks in the US who gave mortgages to people who would never be able to pay them off, packaged these 'sub prime' mortgages into bundles, gave them 'triple A' ratings (which should mean theyre safe products) and then sold them throughout the global economy causing the global credit crunch

The US deregulated and went off the gold standard in the 1970's and has seen more deregulation since which has allowed the bankers free hand to behave how they want....and what happens when you let baners do that is that they find ways to keep all the money themselves

The US also insisted that they have the dollar as a world reserve currency which has helped prop up the US economy for decades and along with US lead agreements such as NAAFTA and US lead organisations such as the World Bank, IMF and WTO combined with a trigger happy military the US had been able to bully the rest of the world into following a neoliberal doctrine that has now left all of us in the shit including Spain

The money that is coming from your 'greedy capitalist pocket' is printed by the central bank (federal reserve banK) and given to the government in return for bonds. When the government gets money from the central bank the bank charges them interest so there is debt attahced to every dollar in your system which is why your country has more debt than anyone else

The bankers solution is to print more money!!!! This is simply a giant ponzi scheme that is beginning to unravel. the US is sitting on foundations of straw and we are fast approaching a time where a new financial infrastructure will need to be put into place

But in order to implement such a radical change people must first be desperate....so a climate of desperation is being created


oh noes, sounds like a global illuminati crisis. quick, don't drink the water