The purpose of Jesus and other religious figures | INFJ Forum

The purpose of Jesus and other religious figures

jimtaylor

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May 19, 2010
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I had an idea the other day that has just stuck in my mind like a sore thumb ever since. I came to it as I was doing seemingly an uncorrelated event but once the thought came to me, I could not stop thinking about it. Since I cannot explain the reasoning to the thought, I will just jump into explaining the thought itself. It is a thought about Jesus and God. Even when I was younger I doubted the things the bible said Jesus did and that he was born of a virgin birth. It was not until I got older that I could finally put words and reasoning to my doubt. In all simplicity I just cannot see the reason or the purpose of making Jesus into this man who is not a man.

Before I go further, I want to make this clear, I am not trying to demean Christianity through my statements but simply come to understanding of my own thoughts. To have true understanding one has to look from all points of view and not just through my own bias eyes. So please understand I mean no offense to any who may take offense to what I write.

I am not hidden in my views on religion and god but I am stepping beyond that in this post. I am truly trying to understand what the purpose of Jesus is or any prophet from any religion (I just know the story of Jesus best). I know the stories, I know the reason behind him sacrificing himself and everything else, but why did he have to be the son of god? I know some are going to argue that he
 
why did he have to be the son of god?

From what I can understand, this is what your question can be summarized as.

To that all I can say is that I agree with all your other points.

I actually don't think it makes much of a difference whether or not Jesus was the son of God for the purpose he was meant to fulfill. The way I see it, all religious prophets basically just give people a sort of ideal or goal to strive for / live by. Their role is to make the ideals and teachings of the religion real, and to show that humans can indeed embody them.

I think if you were to attach a purpose to the concept of Jesus being God's son, it would be to highlight his importance. If it was just some normal dude, people might not take him as seriously... but this guy is directly connected to Teh King Of Teh Universe so to speak. I mean if you were to listen to some guy tell you stuff, one would assume it would be much more convincing to listen to someone coming from a divine lineage right?
 
The purpose is for them to be discussed in a thread on internet forums of course.
 
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From what I can understand, this is what your question can be summarized as.

To that all I can say is that I agree with all your other points.

I actually don't think it makes much of a difference whether or not Jesus was the son of God for the purpose he was meant to fulfill. The way I see it, all religious prophets basically just give people a sort of ideal or goal to strive for / live by. Their role is to make the ideals and teachings of the religion real, and to show that humans can indeed embody them.

I think if you were to attach a purpose to the concept of Jesus being God's son, it would be to highlight his importance. If it was just some normal dude, people might not take him as seriously... but this guy is directly connected to Teh King Of Teh Universe so to speak. I mean if you were to listen to some guy tell you stuff, one would assume it would be much more convincing to listen to someone coming from a divine lineage right?


See that's my point. By making him the son of god it defeats that purpose because he is not a man. He is more than just a man, he is the son of god. How can anybody strive to be like that. It's you are or your aren't in that regard. You can strive to be like in every other but it's natural for people to give up and use the fact that Jesus was Christ as reason to why they are flawed. Now in regards to your other point, it's true it gives his words extra power but it's not always necessary. As I pointed out there are other men in history who through their actions and words have inspired just as Jesus did. They didn't need to be the son of god to do so. It's their actions and purpose that brought them respect, not their lineage. Again I place no value in somebody born better than everybody else being better than everybody else.
 
An interesting perspective on Jesus.

A very, very complicated question, too.

Where to start....hmmm...

The masses were conditioned to believe in multiple Gods around the same time Jesus walked the earth AND the Romans were conquering it.
Jesus's teachings gained momentum. The Romans realized they needed to co-opt the story of Jesus for optimum control of the masses.
The multitple gods religions was replaced with the single god religion and Jesus was elevated to God status so the church could take control over how his teachings were "presented" to the masses. The Church wanted to retain power and their job was talking to God after all. How else could they keep the barrier in place between humanity realizing their own spirituality?
If Jesus's teachings were allowed to be taught as Jesus himself taught them - then there would be no need for the Church. People would learn compassion and love were the way to the kingdom of heaven and lose their fear.
If the masses are not fearful - the church (or those in political power) would have a hard time manipulating them.

This is one perspective from a top down view.

Another view is from the Personal perspective.

For thousands of years one group or the other has attacked, invaded, and oppressed another group. The oppressed groups pass their experiences of the horrors of war, torture, and being slaves down on to the next generation. These ways of thinking and feeling get passed down again and again. Soon you have large groups of people living their lives who have inherited the concept - on a deeply subconscious level - they are not worth anything more than being a slave. When you have someone come up to you and tell you the story of how The Son of a God actually allowed himself to be tortured and killed just for your soul - this makes you feel special. Very special indeed.
If you found yourself barely able to survive day after day - while others were living life easy - you might start feeling worthless. Believing Jesus died so your soul could make it's way to a wonderful place - becomes a critical factor in your survival. And you pass this on to your children and their children and pretty soon it's a way of being...Special...to compensate for being oppressed.

I know...I know... Lot's of people are going to be upset when they read this. It's ONLY my perspective....my OPINION.
 
Jesus' life shows us what life is like then one who is human lives in connection with divinity. It is fine to reflect on his humanity, but it is difficult to do so in a realistic fashion without at least acknowledging his uniqueness, his divinity. He came to pull the veil back on something we would have otherwise had no way of knowing...a revelation. This is an invitation to us....not just to be human, but to be fully human, recapturing something about us that we might otherwise overlook or forget, that is, our essential destiny to live in connection to divinity and the life of God.
 
Allegory and, Jimtaylor put it, deceiving attempts at emulation.
Most forget the first part.
 
Slant,
May it burn. Didn't expect that from me, did you?

jimtaylor, You cannot rewrite history. You can write your own book.
 
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Slant,
May it burn. Didn't expect that from me, did you?

jimtaylor, You cannot rewrite history. You can write your own book.

Who says you can't? History only exists because it's written. You convince enough people of a story and suddenly it becomes fact. ;) Look at the history books from 50 years ago compared to now. Not only did things happen between those two time periods but details and events common in both books are written differently. History is constantly changing. What doesn't change is what actually happened and that's what I seek, not history. History is subjective to the one writing it and is not fact or truth.
 
The purpose is for them to be discussed in a thread on internet forums of course.
Indeed, what greater purpose can one serve than to be the talk of new-age online prophets?
 
As long as you seek the truth, instead of what you think happened or should have happened, you have my support.

I think that truth is actually history, not what is written in some book.
 
As long as you seek the truth, instead of what you think happened or should have happened, you have my support.

I think that truth is actually history, not what is written in some book.

And that is what I am trying to understand and the one thing is it's hard to believe that a man was able to cure the blind, turn water into wine and come back to life after being nailed to a cross... I am not saying it didn't happen but I would like to know the truth of the matter and then understand why people might have changed the story. Because to understand people you have to know more than just the facts but also the reason's why somebody would change them. To understand that would give increddible insight.
 
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I am not saying it didn't happen but I would like to know the truth of the matter and then understand why people might have changed the story. Because to understand people you have to know more than just the facts but also the reason's why somebody would change them.
It is an interesting inquiry, for sure. For me, after decades studying the ancient sources and surrounding historical circumstances and influences, I find that the stories in large part do originate from actual occurances that really happened. If one is to make an inquiry, and if one is to be honest, allowance must be made for the idea that the stories (many of them anyway) did actually happen...at least in significant enough fashion to generate a community of followers that rapidly and for no other apparent reason.

If course, the biggest problem in dealing with these stories as largely based on actual occurances is.....what do you do with this information? Ah, there's the rub.

I'm not saying that there isn't room to question the guilded, holy card, sentimentalized version of things that have emerged out of popular devotion. But the cold hard facts around the Jesus story are pretty darn compelling....and are even more compelling the closer we look at the early communities and organic emergence and collection of these stories. Paul even refers to eyewitnesses to the resurrected Christ that were still living at the time of his writing. As history goes, and as far as the science of history goes, the essentials of the Jesus story are hard to ignore completely....unless we are somehow driven to do so.

Getting to the core essentials of the meaning found here is a worthy quest for sure, but mind you it is a quest for both the mind and the heart. Both are capable of knowing, but in different ways.
 
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@jimtaylor , if I may....

"Reality is merely what we define it as. Anything we dream of can be done; it is just a matter of when it will be done. Our only limitations are the ones we set upon ourselves. We posses the unparalleled power of imagination and thought and there is no limit to that power." - Me(jimtaylor)

Also, on a different note, truth is most important before we worry about change and reasons for such things. If we first find truth, the rest becomes much easier to accept as mere human frailties and weaknesses. It is easier to dive into the why's of life if we first establish a solid ground to stand on. Greek Interlinear translations, Greek Lexicons, concordances, 100+ year old study books, hours of exhaustive studying and memorizing; years of studies are a good start to better understanding but actually bring to mind even newer questions. Do not expect to find your answers alone. The body of Christ has a much broader meaning in the scriptures, and the hand should never say to the foot, "I have no need of thee." Truth is light, and I hope and pray the people that you need to better understand your questions are placed in your path and you help each other to accomplish more knowledge, better understanding, and the wisdom that comes from the quest. The days we live in have somewhat spoiled our drive and will to study: we expect everything to be explained on google. Some things may never be able to be completely explained on such things. When and if they do, I myself will wonder if another prophecy is being fulfilled "in the sky".

 
I think that truth is actually history, not what is written in some book.

History is a recording and analysis of events, most commonly via written records from inherently partial observers or recorders of oral history. Truth is relative to what is recorded and proliferated through the population.


To the OP: In other words, Jesus is nbd.

Jesus and his ilk exist because members of a group need a central figure to follow, particularly one with whom they can relate.
 
Using my own philosophy against me, now that is harsh. Haha. Of course as with everything, what has been said must be taken in context of when it was said and why it was said. Just because we dream something, it does not make it true. Only through hard work and perseverance can these dreams become reality but either way, good point. I understand what you are saying and I do not disagree. I agree with finding truth but the problem is that we are dealing with people. People are not rational or logical and even with the truth right in front of them, they will not accept it. That is the sad reality of the world we live in. For that truth, that fact; to be used to bring humanity to a better level of understanding then humanity has to be willing to accept it first. For that truth to mean anything beyond my own desire to achieve and understand it, humanity has to be willing to accept it. For humanity to be willing to understand and accept that truth, the reason why they would distort the truth in the first place needs to be understood. Like you quoted, why did they take their dream and make it a reality?

An example of this would be the fact that for the longest time people thought that the universe revolved around the Earth and the only evidence supporting such notions where of course watching the sky and then of course religious backing. When evidence was provided to support the notion that it was not this way it was refused as a ploy to undermine the truths of religion. The truth was refused because humanity chose to believe what it wanted to believe but why? It is not enough to just know that the Earth rotates around the Sun, that for a long time people would not believe this truth, that Earth is just one of many possible planetary objects capable of supporting simple life. To have full understand and true knowledge, one has to know more than just the fact but why that fact is truth. Without that supporting evidence, that fact is nothing.

Understanding why or why not people would change the story of Jesus is part of the truth. It cannot be ignored or be said to be seperate of the truth because again without that understanding whatever may be discovered or understood cannot be accepted by humanity if it is not understood why the story would be changed in the first place. This is error many make when they are arguing against religion. They argue with facts, science, rationality and none of those things hold any value when being used to argue with belief. The fact itself is great to know but it is only half the answer.


@jimtaylor , if I may....

"Reality is merely what we define it as. Anything we dream of can be done; it is just a matter of when it will be done. Our only limitations are the ones we set upon ourselves. We posses the unparalleled power of imagination and thought and there is no limit to that power." - Me(jimtaylor)

Also, on a different note, truth is most important before we worry about change and reasons for such things. If we first find truth, the rest becomes much easier to accept as mere human frailties and weaknesses. It is easier to dive into the why's of life if we first establish a solid ground to stand on. Greek Interlinear translations, Greek Lexicons, concordances, 100+ year old study books, hours of exhaustive studying and memorizing; years of studies are a good start to better understanding but actually bring to mind even newer questions. Do not expect to find your answers alone. The body of Christ has a much broader meaning in the scriptures, and the hand should never say to the foot, "I have no need of thee." Truth is light, and I hope and pray the people that you need to better understand your questions are placed in your path and you help each other to accomplish more knowledge, better understanding, and the wisdom that comes from the quest. The days we live in have somewhat spoiled our drive and will to study: we expect everything to be explained on google. Some things may never be able to be completely explained on such things. When and if they do, I myself will wonder if another prophecy is being fulfilled "in the sky".

 
Understanding why or why not people would change the story of Jesus is part of the truth.
From what I can tell, the basic Jesus story was the source of a lot of head-scratching (in varying degrees) for the first three or four centuries of Christianity. In other words, a good many of the events that actually happened were a bit surprising and certainly unpredicted at the time. They were observed and even believed, yet not fully understood/comprehended initially. Only with reflection (short and long term) did the meanings begin to gel. Eventually this communal understanding became doctrine, ideas the community came to agree upon based on the original sources and eyewitness accounts....but it all started out quite organically based on actual happenings. The instinct for prime connection to the apostolic community was a big, big driver in those earlier times, and this is still true in some ways even today among the most authentic expressions of Christian belief (a good thing to watch for).

On a somewhat sad note, we sometimes tend to look at the stories through mythic or magical prisms that do tend to distort. I think it is good to move past this level to form deeper understandings that are most definitely there. In this regard, the meaning of the Jesus story is limited mainly by our own ability to hear and see.
 
Jesus' divinity is important, his teaching and ministry has merit besides that from a strictly humanistic point of view perhaps but his divinity and unity with God is important.

The reason is that in both Judahism and Christianity God is not a remote figure but one which exists in radical reciprocity with his creation, and principally mankind. In the Hindu tradition their pantheon of Gods can engage with humanity in the same way as avatars but it is not the same as they usually act as Gods on Earth some how, in the Christian tradition God became man, experienced humanity first hand, including at its worst.
 
[MENTION=2710]jimtaylor[/MENTION];
Virgin birth: A virgin birth makes it very clear that, while he is human, he is more than just a son of man - but the son of God. There is nothing necessary in his being born of a virgin, but it is more fitting.

Why God became human: There are two central aspects:
1. To atone for sin: The degree of offense a sin causes is in part determined by the person offended. If you were to slap a younger brother in the face it would be a bad offense; to slap a mother in the face is far worse; and to offend against an infinite being has a quality of causing an infinite degree of offense. Not that God is offended in the way that we can be offended; but rather an infinite injustice is made, which calls for infinite reparation. Infinite reparation is impossible for finite beings - but if a small reparation of infinite value is made, all injustice is justly settled. Aquinas says, that because Jesus is both God and man, one single drop of his blood is of such infinite dignity, that it would be sufficient to atone for all the sins of all men for all time.
2. To make it easier for humans to understand and accept friendship with God. When God communicates through prophets, visions, voices from clouds, or through angels it is somewhat daunting - but to know that He lived as a man and befriended his disciples and apostles - some of whom were terrible sinners - it gives us an assurance that we, no matter what our past life has been, can also draw close to him as true friends.
 
This idea is not unique to Christianity. There was a Sufi Muslim named Al Hallaj who went about teaching, doing miracles, and making statements which could be interpreted as "I am god" for which he was eventually arrested, imprisoned, and finally executed. After his execution, there were rumors among his followers that he was alive and walking around. Another example is the Lubavitcher Rebbe: most of his followers believed he was the messiah, but some took it a step farther, saying "to know the Rebbe is to know Hashem (G-d)", and they are still expecting him to rise from the dead.

I think that part of it is simply sensing an archetypal reality, and not understanding the difference between that plane of existence and this one. I also think part of it is simply LOVING someone SOOOO much, investing your whole life in them, one tends to idolize them, and has a hard time accepting that they have died.