The Meaning of Lucifer
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It took as long as you signing on here. Now get to it. Get to illumining. Hurry! Before you are unable to type as your fingers turn to lizard's claws.
I don't know why he rebelled, Quinlan. Good question. Maybe because he wanted humans to worship him instead of God? I don't know.
From what I have put together, Lucifer was jealous and wanted to be God and be in charge of things. So we are pretty much on the same page here I think.
Now please excuse me as I go shapechange into a reptile.
George Bush?! Good to see you on the forums, I suppose you've got a bit of spare time these days.
So why doesn't god just destroy Satan?
He noticed God's love of human beings, despite the fact that we're clear fuckups. He was also jealous of our free will. Angels were beings of servitude, created to follow God's commands without question. Lucifer began questioning. And, due to his rebellion, was sent into complete disconnection with God in a fiery pit, along with the other angels Lucifer convinced to rebel. 1/3 of all the angels were cast to Hell, along with God's Right Hand: Lucifer.
Lucifer returned to Eden specifically to corrupt human kind. After that particular act, he gained many names. You could call Lucifer the bringer of light, in the sense that he made human beings realize what they were doing. Human beings then didn't realize that they were naked. After eating of the fruit of knowledge, they were able to rationalize things like jealousy, anger, hatred, happiness and their own free will. Or, you could think of Lucifer as the Morning Star in the fact that he was God's Right Hand.
Either way, Lucifer is understood as being another name of the same "Evil" entity that caused human beings to fall from grace.
I read up too much on theology. Religious texts are always the most interesting to me.
Edit: Orite. I believe the actual meaning of the word "Lucifer" is "Child of Light". That is, if I remember correctly.
Edit for VindurNótt: That argument is invalid in the face of free will.
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So why would god create a jealous and rebellious being to be his servant? Why didn't he make angels more accepting and truly unquestioning? Did god fail somehow in the creation of Lucifer?
I don't understand why a god so good would create such an evil and powerful being, does he like to see us tested?
If he truly loved us why would he test us this way, why doesn't he love us unconditionally? Is he that petty?
Free will is either showing inability (he CAN"T take away free will) or unwillingness (not willing to face the cost of doing away with evil).
IF any of you want to, you could read this sort of approach to our inner balances and congruities. You can subtsitute Buddha for God and Mara for Lucifer if you want. They are all apsects of your inner psyche - or "our" inner pshyce if you like. http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Bud...given by Thich Nhat Hanh on August 6 1996.htm
Angels never had the temptations we have to deal with. They knew God, so why question if the answer is right there? Angels had free will, as all of his other creations- They just didn't have the same circumstances as human beings. They had God right there in front of them. If the questions are answered and the temptation not there, why fight? It wasn't until one angel decided "Wow. Why do I have to constantly answer to God?"
God didn't really fail, as much as He just let choices be up to His creations.
Maybe so. Would you rather have beings follow you willingly or have a bunch of automatons? The conclusion that I've come to is that the Christian God is a narcissist. And, well, it's stated in the bible "Do not have any other gods before me; for I am a jealous God"
Tell me: Would you rather have free will?
The free will is also a testament of love. The thing is that God does love us unconditionally. Hell is simply a separation from God, not an act out of hate. We send ourselves to Hell, God doesn't send us there. It's a decision that's made in life. If you choose not to follow God, then you get what you want: Separation.
See above.
Testament of love. Evils in this world don't exist due to Satan or Lucifer or any of that bullshit. They exist due to human choices. The temptation is there but that doesn't necessarily mean one should do something because they can. That's pretty much what Genesis is saying with Eve's own choice to eat of the fruit.
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From what I am reading....Who exactly says that Lucifer is evil?
Is it only the word of the religion that says that he is truly evil right? Couldn't they be considered just a little bit biased?
So, what is the independent third party that says Lucifer is the source of evil?
Is it only the word of the religion that says that he is truly evil right? Couldn't they be considered just a little bit biased?
So, what is the independent third party that says Lucifer is the source of evil?
Very interesting answers PP, I will have a think about them.
I have never heard it put this way, interesting. One thing that bothers me is if god wants us to follow him, why doesnt he spell it out plainly for us? What's so special about faith?
I have never heard it put this way, interesting. One thing that bothers me is if god wants us to follow him, why doesnt he spell it out plainly for us? What's so special about faith?
You're talking about religion and asking for an unbiased opinion?? the only one you'll get is that its all just silly superstition, and that its unimportant. The Abramists created the idea of lucifer, and they said he's evil, so thats about as much as your getting (beyond the satanist ideas which say that lucifer represents what the church calls evil, but really aren't all that bad).
It's up to you to really decide if Lucifer is truly "Evil." One would think that the tempter of man with the specific goal of separating one from God would be "Evil."
Not really. If you believe in the entire creation story, then one is led to believe he's "Evil." Remember, he's the tempter of man. He doesn't care for you or your soul. You're pretty much a means of Satan to say "Fuck you" to God.
... I don't really think there can be a "Third party" when we're talking about specific beliefs of a specific religion.
There are other points of view on Satan, like that of Demonolatry, Anton LeVey's atheistic Satanism, theistic Satanism and other groups that believe Satan was simply helping the human race find their way to logic and to help man take advantage of their gift of free will.
Edit!:
Thank you. I'm not actually a theist. I've just spent so much time thinking about religion that I've spent a lot of time researching the Bible and other religious texts. Most of my time as a teen was spent figuring out religion. I never really searched for a reason to not believe, as much as I searched for answers to believe. I've yet to convince myself of God's existence.
Lucifer had it plainly spelled out. Unfortunately, even though one might have all the answers present, pride can still get in the way of love. Also remember: No human being is God. We can ask all the questions we want but the only real answers are speculation; an attempt to see from the eyes of the infinite.
If you have any other questions, I have no problem answering. I've researched things from Kabbalistic Judaism, Christianity(Several different denominations, including ones that aren't practiced any more), The Apocryphas, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Satanism, Wicca, Demonology, Shamanism and other oddball religions. Mind you, I might not have all the answers but I have no problem with researching them further. I love reading up on religion.
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Interestingly I don't think Genesis ever uses the term "Satan" or "Lucifer" in describing the serpent who tempts Eve.
I think a lot of the story re: the war between God and Lucifer may come from non-Biblical (but certainly religious/sacred) texts such as the book of Enoch.
I really like Christian Gnostic beliefs, which kind of invert everything. They believe there is a "One" God, known as the "pleroma" or "monad" -- the fullness of everything. In the beginning, this Monad gave off a series of emanations which produced various lesser beings, who were divine but just not as complete as the Monad. These emanations produced an entity known as the Demiurge, who was outside the Monad. The Demiurge was divine, but was very incomplete. The Gnostics believed that this Demiurge was our Judeo-Christian God (i.e. "Yahweh").
The demiurge was frustrated that he was not part of the Monad, so he created our universe, and humanity. He also created archons (or angels) to help him rule. His whole purpose of ruling was to have humans worship him. Humans for some reason have part of the Monad in them. The Monad, however, doesn't want humans to be trapped by the demiurge, so it emanated the holy spirit and the historical Jesus to teach them how to find salvation and return back to the Monad.
From this perspective, Lucifer is really on humanity's side, as he is fighting the demi-urge as well. Well, maybe not on humanity's side, but isn't "evil" per se, I suppose.
I think a lot of the story re: the war between God and Lucifer may come from non-Biblical (but certainly religious/sacred) texts such as the book of Enoch.
I really like Christian Gnostic beliefs, which kind of invert everything. They believe there is a "One" God, known as the "pleroma" or "monad" -- the fullness of everything. In the beginning, this Monad gave off a series of emanations which produced various lesser beings, who were divine but just not as complete as the Monad. These emanations produced an entity known as the Demiurge, who was outside the Monad. The Demiurge was divine, but was very incomplete. The Gnostics believed that this Demiurge was our Judeo-Christian God (i.e. "Yahweh").
The demiurge was frustrated that he was not part of the Monad, so he created our universe, and humanity. He also created archons (or angels) to help him rule. His whole purpose of ruling was to have humans worship him. Humans for some reason have part of the Monad in them. The Monad, however, doesn't want humans to be trapped by the demiurge, so it emanated the holy spirit and the historical Jesus to teach them how to find salvation and return back to the Monad.
From this perspective, Lucifer is really on humanity's side, as he is fighting the demi-urge as well. Well, maybe not on humanity's side, but isn't "evil" per se, I suppose.
Maybe God likes drama. God seems to be into a lot of "showyness" of His power. Maybe God is just using Satan to show how great and powerful He is. The more bad stuff Satan does now the better God will look in comparison, no? It's just a theory.
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