The INFJ quest for validity

[TheLastMohican]

I'd say that Fe is more based on outer social systems, but Ni has more to do with coming up with unique or less apparent viewpoints, and Ti analyzes and questions these...

Yes, Ni produces quick conclusions from scattered bits of information. (Ne, by contrast, produces possibilities from information, giving broader and shallower understanding. The former is convergent, while the latter is divergent.) The N functions can work much faster and with less information than the T functions, often hopping around where a T function would be paralyzed for lack of information to analyze. When the N function is finished, it's time for the T or F function to clean up and package the results for application.

 

[Duty]

There are no questions here, merely negative insinuations.

Ok, none were implicitly asked, but cmon...

Sounds like INFJs, for personal growth, probably go through a lot of strides in being able to explain their reasoning.

I was theorizing. Don't accuse me of malice.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Well, just because you turned out to be right doesn't mean you knew it would happen. The lottery winner doesn't know the winning numbers, but they are right about them. The scientist doesn't know his hypothesis is correct before testing it, but he may still turn out to be right.

I have done reactions this year, where I just knew that it was going to do something. It would not have been perdicted by mechanism. But I just had a feeling that it was going to do what I thought if I changed the conditions.

It sounds like you are just arguing semantics at this point (and you know I feel about that). I call it a knowing, and I would venture to think that most people would agree.

 

[Duty]

I have done reactions this year, where I just knew that it was going to do something. It would not have been perdicted by mechanism. But I just had a feeling that it was going to do what I thought if I changed the conditions.

It sounds like you are just arguing semantics at this point (and you know I feel about that). I call it a knowing, and I would venture to think that most people would agree.

Well, I'd say there is a big difference between knowing, having an educated guess or hypothesis, and "having a good hunch/feeling." It may be just semantics, but without asking the question "is this what you really mean?" then I wouldn't understand what is really meant here...

and I'd certainly separate "a good hunch" from knowledge. I think the vast majority of disagreements I have with INFJs are over this very thing. They claim they "know something" while I say, "you have a good hunch." INFJs do tend to have a very strong "gut feeling" that is certainly more reliable then mine (although I actually do have a pretty strong Ni for an INTP, more then people realize), but I still say it's quite a distance from being "knowledge."

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Well, hold on here, guys. I think it is a process of growth for an INFJ to be able to understand how they got to a conclusion, not just having the conclusion itself.

I think Duty has some good points, I just think he's a bit tactless and much too blunt in his packaging.
(Although, I have to add, Duty, we don't just have "gut hunches." Trust me, many times, we know. Either that, or I've done better than around 95% of the population on "gut hunches.")

But yes. It's difficult to answer "how" in many situations. That's one thing I dread -- not so much in normal situations, because I'm actually getting quite good at following the rapid-fire conclusions of Ni, but on big questions like religion and people, that involves lots of conclusions being reached at the same time to package one big belief....that's difficult to explain. And it requires that justification because the more people doubt you, the more you come to doubt yourself...

 

[IndigoSensor]

Duty, you really do have good points, as gloomy said. I really do try to verbalize my feelings, hunches, ideas, ect. although this come across much more clearly in person with me. My friend actually tell me I try to overarticulate/overexplain things at time and will tell me to cork it, haha. You have to understand though, there really are things where we just know something, and could try to explain it, but fail. Yet we do try. You kind of need to turn the camera a bit, and look at things under a different light for us. I can see you trying more then any non-INFJ member trying to unravel us and explain us to yourself. The thing is, you keep trying the same methods to unwrap us. Most us respond defensivly because you are trying to reason how we work based on your INTP thinking patterns, which doesn't always work. It might be one of those things where you just don't understand it until to try/experience it, many things in life are that way to begin with. I know, I have learned it the hard way and I still have yet to get it through my thick head.

 

[Duty]

Well, I'd say there is a big difference between knowing, having an educated guess or hypothesis, and "having a good hunch/feeling." It may be just semantics, but without asking the question "is this what you really mean?" then I wouldn't understand what is really meant here...

and I'd certainly separate "a good hunch" from knowledge. I think the vast majority of disagreements I have with INFJs are over this very thing. They claim they "know something" while I say, "you have a good hunch." INFJs do tend to have a very strong "gut feeling" that is certainly more reliable then mine (although I actually do have a pretty strong Ni for an INTP, more then people realize), but I still say it's quite a distance from being "knowledge."

I'm sure the first reaction to this by you INFJs will be an instinct that I'm trying to play down your gift by calling it a good hunch instead of knowledge. But step back for a minute. I'm not doing that. I'm saying you all have a tremendous gift that I certainly lack, a gift that is reliable. It is a gift you have all come to rely on, to the point you say you "know" things, because you have developed such a strong confidence in your abilities, that come to you through this gift.

All I'm saying is it isn't "knowledge," it's good instinct. There's nothing wrong with that...the gift is still the same, it's still there and hasn't changed. It still serves you well. It still has very extensive applications in areas I couldn't dream of entering and being proficient.

It's just that I think it's appropriate to say that knowledge has a certain criteria. I mean, if we're going to sit down and try to determine when we know something, it seems reasonable to give a list of properties/criteria we must fulfill in order to claim "knowledge." Well, a body of people very interested in doing just this, called epistemologists, has developed what they think those criteria are over human history. They don't always agree, but they do mostly agree that having a good hunch isn't quite satisfactory enough. You can read up on epistemology more if you wish, as the subject is far too extensive for me to just explain, but the main concern here is over "justification." Of course, a brief overview can be found on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_justification
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology

 

[gloomy-optimist]

We are not empirical; we are spiritual

(Special pleading)


Although I do think you're getting better at understanding our way of thinking, at least a little, Duty.

 

[Duty]

Well, hold on here, guys. I think it is a process of growth for an INFJ to be able to understand how they got to a conclusion, not just having the conclusion itself.

I think Duty has some good points, I just think he's a bit tactless and much too blunt in his packaging.
(Although, I have to add, Duty, we don't just have "gut hunches." Trust me, many times, we know. Either that, or I've done better than around 95% of the population on "gut hunches.")

But yes. It's difficult to answer "how" in many situations. That's one thing I dread -- not so much in normal situations, because I'm actually getting quite good at following the rapid-fire conclusions of Ni, but on big questions like religion and people, that involves lots of conclusions being reached at the same time to package one big belief....that's difficult to explain. And it requires that justification because the more people doubt you, the more you come to doubt yourself...

Duty, you really do have good points, as gloomy said. I really do try to verbalize my feelings, hunches, ideas, ect. although this come across much more clearly in person with me. My friend actually tell me I try to overarticulate/overexplain things at time and will tell me to cork it, haha. You have to understand though, there really are things where we just know something, and could try to explain it, but fail. Yet we do try. You kind of need to turn the camera a bit, and look at things under a different light for us. I can see you trying more then any non-INFJ member trying to unravel us and explain us to yourself. The thing is, you keep trying the same methods to unwrap us. Most us respond defensivly because you are trying to reason how we work based on your INTP thinking patterns, which doesn't always work. It might be one of those things where you just don't understand it until to try/experience it, many things in life are that way to begin with. I know, I have learned it the hard way and I still have yet to get it through my thick head.

Hmm, maybe I'm misjudging then. See, I've long decided I want to try it you guys' way, but I wouldn't know how to do that. I've gotten a suggestion that involves getting high and I am not willing to get high for this (plus, it doesn't sound like a fair test, as my faculties would just be impaired). Getting high is just way too far out of my comfort zone.

I'm trying to find a way to enter your house here...to see the paradigm you all have from the inside instead of just looking at it through my window...through my lens. Any suggestions that don't involve substance abuse?

 

[IndigoSensor]

I know saying this is going to be like asking you to chop your head off and use it like a bongo, but... Don't use logic trying to figure us out, it doesn't really work.

 

[Duty]

I know saying this is going to be like asking you to chop your head off and use it like a bongo, but... Don't use logic trying to figure us out, it doesn't really work.

Then throw me a bone here. I'm reaching out my hand to try and get some understanding.

For all I know, you all may be right about the entire universe. I've only observed your way of dealing with things through my own window. I'm trying to come to your house and see it for what it is on the inside, and then being more educated to make a call on things...and I might possibly steal some of your furniture to put back in my house!

 

[jn56uytrx]

Why do INFJs seek to find their own personal validity in what they believe, think, and do? INFPs seem to just simply assign value to some things and not others based on how they feel about them, but INFJs are constantly trying to prove what does and doesn't have value so that they know how to feel about them.

I saw two sections to your question.

Part One:

seeking of external validation to gauge whether the direction headed is sound.

Fi vs. Fe

I believe neither is superior. One is simply better suited to someone cognitively arranged INFPish, the other better suited to someone cognitively arranged INFJish.

I sense I am at my strength when I go through the external engagement process. In my fluidity to what exists externally, I am open to process whatever information may be presented. I do not feel settled in a decision until it has been weighed against an external measure. If I were to attempt decision-making without seeking open engagement to what exists outside myself, I fear making decisions that lack essential understanding.

Eventually I sense when it is time to pull back in and make the decision. Once I'm there, I may experience social discomfort at dissenting judgments, and choose to limit my company to places where I feel comfortable in my decision, but my decision remains made. Unless I willingly choose to seek out another distinct decision-making process.

Part Two:

a drive to defend decisions, or proposed decisions, with logic.

Tertiary Ti

It's no surprise to me that Duty presents here in this thread as they do. If their type is INTP, then having a strong support of logic for decisions would be elemental to the conception of decision-making for them.

It is not so much for me.

Sounds like INFJs, for personal growth, probably go through a lot of strides in being able to explain their reasoning. I mean, if you can't explain why, then it won't be very persuasive or meaningful to others. I think Einstein or Feynman (sounds like a Feynman quote, but for some reason I want to say it was Einstein) said something like, "A scientific theory, no matter how elaborate or correct, is not persuasive if it can't be explained to lay people, including children."

There are times when I may choose to attempt explanation of my positions with reason, but generally when I'm engaging with others, I'm submitting to their wisdom and allowing myself to soak up what they can offer. Once I've made a decision, I feel little drive to persuade.

I may, however, feel a drive to present. Logic is generally not necessary for this presentation. I tend to choose metaphor or personal story to present. If someone sees something of value in what I share then I welcome them to take it. If they do not, then they do not. /shrug

 

[IndigoSensor]

Then throw me a bone here. I'm reaching out my hand to try and get some understanding.

For all I know, you all may be right about the entire universe. I've only observed your way of dealing with things through my own window. I'm trying to come to your house and see it for what it is on the inside, and then being more educated to make a call on things...and I might possibly steal some of your furniture to put back in my house!

And for all I know, you might be right. You spend so much energy on trying to rework our reasonings on things, and put your own light on them. We put alot of stock on the unseen, and extrapolate from that. You also put alot of stock on the unseen, but leave it at that. That is why I said before to make a "leap of imagination" :thumb:

MY FURNITURE! *grabs and runs* >_>

 

[jn56uytrx]

I'm trying to come to your house and see it for what it is on the inside, and then being more educated to make a call on things...and I might possibly steal some of your furniture to put back in my house!

Nice...a metaphorical statement of intent. I heard you, Duty, and I think your new furniture looks lovely.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Lol

Well, the world through my eyes is more a combination of emotion and logic -- I guess more emotion logically grounded. But the emotion is not usually strongly my own; it's the intricate world of others' emotion and the interweaving of the relationships between and among them, and how that logically attaches to everything else.

In other words, social systems. I understand things through how people see it, because people are all we boil down to; you can understand science and logics and maths, but people invented those. You can understand religion and art and language, but people came up with those too. If you can understand people, you can understand many ways in how these fail.


Now, that's not all that I see, but I think that's how my view differs from yours. I connect information without trying to, and I like relating it to the abstract, the symbolic -- dynamic things are so much more interesting than the concrete. I think in disjointed riddles.

You can't really "understand" the mind of the infj, I think (because many times we -- I -- do not understand the mind of the infj). But don't think too hard, or you'll strain your brain. It's much more of an understanding thing rather than an analyzing thing -- half of what I think is effortless understandings....


Dang, this is hard.

 

[Duty]

And for all I know, you might be right. You spend so much energy on trying to rework our reasonings on things, and put your own light on them. We put alot of stock on the unseen, and extrapolate from that. You also put alot of stock on the unseen, but leave it at that. That is why I said before to make a "leap of imagination" :thumb:

MY FURNITURE! *grabs and runs* >_>

I know you guys keep saying that "you can't understand the mind of an INFJ unless you are one," but I'm going to keep asking questions and try anyways...

My questions: Why do you extrapolate from the unseen? Why do you prefer one type of "unseen" over another (in your case Indigo...why new age-type stuff instead of, say, Islam...why faith in religion instead of philosophy...etc)?

 

[IndigoSensor]

I know you guys keep saying that "you can't understand the mind of an INFJ unless you are one," but I'm going to keep asking questions and try anyways...

My questions: Why do you extrapolate from the unseen? Why do you prefer one type of "unseen" over another (in your case Indigo...why new age-type stuff instead of, say, Islam...why faith in religion instead of philosophy...etc)?

As I have said before. I hate leaving things open, ended. I have to fill in the blanks, because everything has to have some kind of answer to it. I go with what I reason out and what feels right to me. Largely, these assumptions hold completly true.

And hopefully this won't bug you, heh. I go with new-age because it resonates with me, and makes the most sense. It feels right and explains things to me, where as most other religious followings don't work for me. They don't make sense, or feel right.

 

[TheLastMohican]

I know you guys keep saying that "you can't understand the mind of an INFJ unless you are one," but I'm going to keep asking questions and try anyways...

 

[Satya]

I know you guys keep saying that "you can't understand the mind of an INFJ unless you are one," but I'm going to keep asking questions and try anyways...

INFJs see the world as multifaceted. We often see the world as an infinite number of equally valid perspectives since we are instinctively aware of our cognitive biases and the limitations to our senses. As I said in a quote I posted in another thread...

Faith: the method in which we believe that we can derive truth.

To act on faith is absurd, but virtually all people act on faith. Whether it is faith in a Holy Scripture or faith in empirically derived evidence or faith in reason through deduction; it is still a faith that at one point in time a person reflected upon and chose to act on before all the others.

It is laughable that any human being believes they know the Truth in a world of so many truths. People usually create meaning in their own lives, whether it is religion, spirituality, politics, science, whatever.

So the INFJ mind is constantly trying to find validity in everything it believes by observing how much value it has in life so that they can develop some personal meaning in this world. Eventually the INFJ's mind gathers enough supporting evidence that it stops looking for a basis of this meaning. For example, a Christian INFJ may have seen the Bible drastically improve the lives of many people and thus determined that it has value and a Scientific INFJ may have seen the scientific method drastically improve the lives of many people ad thus determined that it has value. If these two INFJs were to encounter each other then they would demand that the other disprove their position. Once an INFJ has made up their mind, the burden of the proof falls on the external world to prove them wrong.

However, since so many views have seemingly equal validity, each INFJ typically develops a unique and complicated mixture of beliefs. An INFJ usually accomplishes this by integrating new beliefs into what they already believe by using intuitive connections between the old and the new. For example, the Christian INFJ may find science to have validity so they may intuit some connection between the two, like evolution being a part of God's creation. Whereas the Scientific INFJ may accept the Bible has validity and therefore they may intuit that some sort of natural and observable God exists that can be understood through careful empirical observation. As more and more new beliefs are intuitively added to the already established beliefs, a very original and highly intuitive belief system emerges.

The INFJ's belief system is usually a very mystical thing to them, and because the process of developing it occurs over a lifetime, it is incredibly difficult to explain to people. However, because it is composed of ideas the INFJ has decided has value from careful study, observation, and experience, the INFJ has a certain amount of certainty in it. And as the INFJ's belief system is usually constantly evolving to incorporate new ideas and restructuring the intuitive connections between the old ideas, it may drastically change shape over time.

Does that work?

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Hot damn, Satya, I'd say you hit the nail on the head!